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Here's a brain buster, wood handle steam fit??

Started by Brad_bb, January 14, 2011, 11:05:24 AM

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Brad_bb

I'm trying to figure out how the wooden handles were originally installed on my Millers Falls boring machines so that I can make new ones for installation.


The wooden handle is tightly adhered to the brass sleeve. The brass sleeve is captured and rides on a steel pin. It rotates freely on the steel pin. the big trick, is how is the handle adhered to the brass sleeve? The brass sleeve is inserted about 2/3rds of the way into the wood handle. I have handles of two designs from the different machines i have. The first is completely solid, while the second is bored completely through the long axis, and has plugs inserted in the ends after installation. The plugs are only pressed in and I am able to grab them with two utility knives and remove the plugs. These machines were produced from 1872 thru the mid 1930's. I believe my machines are from the late 1800's based on knowing what featured were changed through production.
I don't think they used any glue, because I suspect they didn't really have an efficient one that could do the job of bonding the brass to the wood back then. So my thought is that somehow it's a shrink fit. I think they drilled a tight fit hole and perhaps softened the fibers or expanded the hole, then inserted the brass/handle arm assembly, and then shrank the wood down onto the brass. I further suspect that the wood handle was either steamed, then quickly installed with a slight press fit and cooled and allowed to shrink, or the wood was turned green, installed with a slight press fit and then kiln dried. I would think the first scenario would be more plausible as you'd be under a time constraint working with green wood and I'm not sure they had a kiln back then. The difference in handles, solid, and with holes, may have been a solid early design, then later having the holes to allow for faster cooling/shrinkage?
I know it's a long shot, but if anyone has any information, or old books that might have this information/technology, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Thanks, Brad
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

Shrinking may have a little something to do with it, but only in drying the wood before drilling. A hole drilled into wood tends to get bigger as wood dries, like the handles on a file or lathe gouge. So they are wedged in or a rivet or steel pin is tapped or pressed on a copper or brass collar on the end of the handle. But I suspect that the end of the brass was beveled so when tapped into the wood it slides easier through the wood then coming off. While trying to pull it off, the edge of the brass will bite into wood. Otherwise the wooden handles would keep coming off.  Just my WAG. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

Thanks for the quick response.  I show in the pic one of the arms with the brass sleeve and no handle.  The brass sleeve appears completely smooth.  No evidence of any taper or tangs to bit into the wood.  Granted, one option in the end of the day would be to use a knurled sleeve to try to bite into the wood.  But the original method seems to have worked quite well if I can just figure out how they did it.  I was thinking that steaming would loosen the fibers on the surface of the hole, but not necessarily penetrate the whole handle.  Then pressing the pin into the softened hole, as it dries, might get tighter on the sleeve??  I hope I can get some knowledge on this before I have to start experimenting.  I wonder if it could just be straight up press fit?  Incidentally, the handles seem to be of a very fine, tight grain wood.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Just Me

 My guess would be a straight up press fit. One of those handles that you can see the wood looks like rosewood. I would say bore the hole in the wood just a bit tight, freeze the brass insert and use an arbor press to press the new handle on using dishsoap, diluted a bit as a lube, as it will dry up and cause no problem later.

I have a scrap box full of exotics that I could scrounge you up a piece big enough, or you could use osage orange that is plentiful in your area.

Let me know if you need some wood, I think I have a piece of cocabolo about the right size.

Larry

SwampDonkey

It would have to be cooked an hour an inch to penetrate the whole handle. Steaming would cause swelling. Then drying would make it loose on the copper sleeve. Drying is going to occur from surfaces toward the centre of the wood, surfaces including a hole. In the two knobs there, is does appear that they drove the copper sleeve in the radial grain direction which would reduce the shrinkage in about half. I think the handles were dried below EMC, like down to 8-10 %, then drilled and the moisture gain from the air made the handles grip the brass sleeve from swelling. Steaming could reduce the swelling time. ;) I would drill them so they are going to just pass over them sleeves.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

Well several people now seem to think that steam isn't such a good idea.  It looks like I'm going to have to try a straight up press. 
-If I wanted to dry them lower than ambient moisture, how would I do that?  Did they have that ability back in 1880? 
-How wood type dependent is this?  Would a maple handle stand up  to being pressed?
-My last resort might be a knurled sleeve with some glue on it to bite into the wood and fill the spaces with glue.

When I was talking about steam, I was thinking of only enough to soften the inside surface of the press hole, not trying to soften the whole handle all the way through.  I'm not trying to bend wood, just soften the surface.  I thought that it would allow some of the wood surface to compress and hopefully hold tight, especially if a knurled pin were used.  The fibers could expand back into the knurls.  Who knows, but I'll try the straight up press first.

Thanks for the offer of the wood.  I'm probably not going to use a native hardwood like maple, walnut, and ??
I'll have to make up some rectangular blocks I can drill and try the press on.  I may rough up the brass surface slightly with a scotchbrite pad before pressing.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Dan_Shade

hang them close to a wood stove, the high heat near the stove will drive out the moisture.

you could also put it in the oven, or maybe even the microwave.

Why not just glue it with epoxy?  (we won't tell anybody :) )
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Brad_bb on January 14, 2011, 05:34:37 PM
-If I wanted to dry them lower than ambient moisture, how would I do that?  Did they have that ability back in 1880?

Yup, set the handles on a drying shelf beside a hot stove for a few days. They never had a moisture meter but could measure if moisture was being lost by weighing. Or they could have had a recipe to let the wood dry for so many days/hours.

By steaming I thought you were not bending wood, but making it swell. For what your thinking of, just drop them in a water bucket for bit. Your thinking of raising the grain I guess. ;)
When drying after the steaming, the wood would not expand, but contract.

Ditto Dan.

You know Brad, just because the Wood Products Labs around the world created testing standards and wrote books on ID of wood, don't mean those old timers didn't know about wood properties pertaining to moisture. ;) Some stuff they couldn't see, but they knew what was going on. Just not the minute things.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SPIKER

I remember seeing soemthing done back in the day on a black & white very old film that had them using expanding wedges (think muffler pipe expander) to expand bushing inside of some wood wheel blanks then reamed them to size internally.   Not sure what the wheel/pulley was for but it was a very heavy hunk of wood that had steel bands around outside of them.   they froze the brass bushings then pressed them into the wood with a large arbor press then dropped in a series of feather wedges and hit them with the arbor press again.   It appeared they smeared something around the brass/wood hole prior to pressing not sure if it was water glue or oil. 

Otherwise I agree with others snug fit hole and some epoxy. ;)

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

metalspinner

I like Just Me's idea, but that's just me. :)

If the wood is not at equalibrium and high in moisture, it may shrink around the brass and hold it just fine.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bodger

most ladder back chairs you see are built on the fact that a hole drilled in green wood shrinks when the wood is dried.  Green legs (posts) and bone dry rungs are put together and will hold much longer than a glue joint when the leg shrinks to hold the post in place.
Work's fine for killing time but it's a shaky way to make a living.

SwampDonkey

That must be why I'm always gluing chairs back together because the holes are shrinking tight. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

A little experiment:

Exhibit 1:



A cherry dowel turned to 3/4" with matching hole in flat piece of cherry. Been drying for days beside a hot stove. No idea of moisture content, but can assume dryer than air in the house. Let's guess around 10 %.



Snug/tight fit same MC% whatever it is.



Submerged in water for a few days with another pair of wood pieces called exhibit #2, a flat piece of cherry we will call exhibit #3, and cherry dowel wood is also in the water bucket to be labeled exhibit #4.

Exhibit # 2 is wet wood before turning a dowel and drilling matching hole. Unknown MC. The two pieces were soaked 168 hours first.



Exhibit #3 has a wet square piece for drilling a hole, but a dry dowel that were cut at the same time. Unknown MC's. The wet square piece was soaked 168 hours.



Exhibit #4 has a wet dowel and a dry hole drilled in the square piece at the same time. Unknown MC's. The wet dowel was soaked for 168 hours.



Exhibit #1 was removed and is left to air dry in the house for a few days/weeks to see if they can be pulled apart. Exhibits #2, #3 and #4 are brought to the house for a few days/weeks of air drying as well to see what happens.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

metalspinner

SD,
You're making my head hurt. :D

My guess is that any of the holes you have drilled or will drill will come out oval after they reach equilibrium.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

SwampDonkey

I want to look at it all four ways with pieces being dry and wet. ;D The first one we are calling dry, but I dropped them in water to speed up moisture intake and then will let them adjust to the the house air for EMC.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: metalspinner on January 15, 2011, 03:07:45 PM
My guess is that any of the holes you have drilled or will drill will come out oval after they reach equilibrium.

Yes, because of radial vs tangential movement. Works the same either way, drying or wetting. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

A good experiment, but just a note that I don't think it addressed my original issue.  I have a brass sleeve that will be pressed into a wood hole.  I realize that you are probably just doing your own experiment.  I suspect that the wood dowel will shrink, and the hole will not shrink as much, and you'll end up loose.  Also, are you starting with a slip fit, or a press fit?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

Your are right, that it isn't exactly the same situation since both pieces are wood and you have a brass sleeve against wood. The fit is a slip fit, but a tight slip fit, wood is compressed slightly. As to the experiment, it is done 4 ways, so not all pieces will shrink when we start with dry pieces below EMC. We'll see. ;D They are all same species and cut from the same 2 pieces of wood. It's just a lot easier to use wood since I have no sleeves of any type metal. Being the same species the drying and wetting will be the same proportions (T/R) in either of the pieces. The parts that are both dried below EMC should swell and stay tight. I've got them in water just to speed up wetting. They will be pulled out of the water and allowed to adjust to the room air for several days. I don't think much compression will happen over night to the fibres, so they won't be crushed hopefully and become loose. Water doesn't move that fast into wood unless steamed. ;)

We also have a gentlemen with a chair construction scenario. I can't imagine a wood hole shrinking smaller when it dries. Going to dry from the surface (including hole surfaces) toward the centre of the wood, not the hole. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jim king

I have seen hot file tangs and turning tools inserted into a drilled out undersized hole in a wood handle and in the hole is a tree sap called brea, it looks almost like tar.  You have to break the handle to get it off and scrape off the wood splinters attached to the metal.

Brea is also put under tin can patches tacked to wooden dugout canoes for a water tight seal.  Maybe a tree sap up there has the same properties.  Brea comes in peices like coal and has to be melted in a tin can to use.

?¿?¿ ???


SwampDonkey

Some type of bonding agent that adheres to wood and metal will achieve the same thing Jim.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jim king

SwampDonkey :

I was thinking that old technology like tree sap may have been how the originals were made.

SwampDonkey

Yeah, possibly so. The Indians used spruce pitch on canoes up here. People often assume that before some of these institutions of research were set up and funded by government that folks 4 or 5 or 6 generations before had no understanding of what's going on. Especially so for wood, since we have folks wanting to buy old furniture and pay $100,000's for it. Well, you wouldn't pay that if it was falling apart like junk. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Just Me

 For what its worth when I set new chisel handles I use a few drops of West System on the tang. It may be cheating, but I use my tools, and have no doubt that if it had been available in the old days, the old timers would have used it as well. My only concern is that the tool works to help me make a living, I have a woodshop, not a museum.

The West System not only fills any small voids, but seals the inside of the handle so it will be resistant to seasonal changes.

Brad_bb

The more we talk about it, the more I think a press fit and a light coat of epoxy on the inside of the hole may be the way to try.  I must embarrassingly admit that I don't yet have a drill press, only regular hand drills.  I need to get one so that I can use a machinist vice etc to clamp such handles while drilling.
   What would be the best to use to make the holes.  Regular drill bit, Brad point, spade bit?  I'm thinking regular because I can get any size imaginable, whereas the other may only come in common sizes.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

Yeah, a regular will make a clean hole, where as a spade will wonder or wobble some. I don't have a drill press yet either. I want one to try cutting mortises, I don't have patience to chisel them out. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dan_Shade

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

Dan,

Dovetails with a router and home made jigs from what ever I can muster without a lot of fuss. Table saw or router to cut tung and grooves. Stacked daddo for box joint. Biscuit jointer. Edge glue ups. But joints on table legs with a block in behind. Backsaw and a sharp chisel to cut out housing joints where one face is open or a large dove tail joint on cross beams for sleds. Lathe for posts and drill for hole. Sometimes you get a little innovative and cross your fingers.  ;)
Never done any mortises yet. I want a drill press and mortise cutter and a Leigh dovetail jig. :)

Want want want. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dan_Shade

gotcha,

I bought a set of mortise chisels a few years ago from Lie-Nielsen, they aren't cheap, but work very well for cutting mortises.  Even a hack like myself can chop out a mortise with them.  I use the mortising attachment on my drill press, and the chisels to clean them up.

check out a real master, Frank Klausz, being filmed by Roy Underhill.

http://popularwoodworking.com/article/mortising_under_glass/

(sorry for the thread hijack, Brad!)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

Dial-up here Dan  :(

Does Roy still have a show? PBS in Maine has stopped broadcasting his shows over a year ago. I used to get a kick out his performances, more than the wood working. Actually, most shows were just performances. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dan_Shade

I think he does.

the video is of Mr. Klausz chopping a mortise by hand, with a glass panel on one side so you can see how the chisel works.  a big mallet and a mortise chisel can make short work of a mortise, it's almost counter-intuitive that it will work so well without drilling holes to start it.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

I'd be afraid of tearing out when the chisel breaks surface on the far side. I would have to make some kind of scoring or chiseling on that side to make sure it didn't tear off a big sliver. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dan_Shade

you have to cut through mortises from both sides :)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

Well there ya go.  And hold your jaw just right so both ends meet square. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jamesamd

SD,use a 3/4 " backer board of hard maple.
Brad,use a forstner bit.Cleanest cutter,for wood,I've ever used.
Only out done by a solid carbide,spiral router bit.
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

Dan_Shade

i've not had good experience using forstner bits without using a lathe or drill press....

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

isawlogs


Here's my take on the how those handles stayed on so long. Press fit , into undersized hole , wood had Hyde glue in it. Was one of the only glue they had other then fish glue, had no epoxy or west system back then. If you want to do it like it was done then use what they had  ;)
Amazin how well that stuff takes a hold and stayes put.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

isawlogs


If you are looking for some of those glues, Lee Valley has them.   

  http://www.leevalleytools.com/ 
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ARKANSAWYER

Measure the brass pin and then go put the thing in the freezer or outside if it is really cold.  Turn the wood for the knob (it does not have to be dried wood) then put in a pot of water and start boiling.  After an hour of boiling remove the knob and drill a hole with a bit that is 1/16 smaller then the brass pin. (metal drilling bits come in many sizes and will drill hardwood handles fine.) Once the hole is drilled pit it back into the pot of boiling water for a few minutes.  Remove the knob and sprinkle salt into the hole then insert onto brass pin.  Allow it to dry and in a few days put by wood stove.  When the wood dries the salt will casue the brass to  corrode and the wood will shrink around the brass pin.
  When you heat a metal washer the hole gets larger.  That is how we press pistions onto connecting rods.  We heat the end of the rod till it is very hot then drop the pin through the piston and into the rod then into the piston on the other side.  When it cools the rod holds the pin.
  When you steam wood the hole gets larger just like in a washer.  If you steam the wood first then drill the hole it will shrink alot when the wood dries.
   
ARKANSAWYER

SwampDonkey

Wood is hygroscopic and a steel washer isn't. Dry heat has the opposite effect on the wooden hole, it will enlarge as it dries. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

This is exhibit 1, where both pieces were dried for weeks beside a hot stove. They got pretty warm at times, you could feel the heat off them in your hands when picking them up. You can see where the flat piece had checked. Do you think a check gets bigger or narrower when it keeps drying? ;) I drilled the hole and turned the dowel when they were dry. Slipped the dowel in the hole, it was a tight fit. I placed them in water for 12 hours and removed and took them into the house to adjust to the air. Still ongoing on that part. They are even more tight than in the beginning, since they have taken on water. They have been out of the water bucket for about 20 hrs now.



I have 3 other sample pairs to test dry part against wet part and wet with wet.

I did locate some copper sleeves in the shop. I'll test those to, cold copper with wet and with dry wood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

My brass sleeve size is just a shade under 3/8", fyi.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

My copper sleeves I find to big for the bits I have available and my cutter bit doesn't go below 1-1/8".  ::)

I'd dry that wood good with dry heat, but slowly. Drill it for a tight fit and press it on. If your going to epoxy it and the hole dead ends in the wood, are you going to add some to the hole first? If you add it to the sleeve it's just going to squeeze out and run done the knob. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

laffs

is it possible that the brass is flaired on either side of the handle? friction fit then flaired
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 16, 2011, 06:12:13 AM
We also have a gentlemen with a chair construction scenario. I can't imagine a wood hole shrinking smaller when it dries. Going to dry from the surface (including hole surfaces) toward the centre of the wood, not the hole. ;)

You might want to brush up on your woodworking literature, Donk. Using slightly green wood for the posts of a chair so that the holes shrink tight onto the rungs is a very well-known and well-documented technique that has been used for centuries (and is still in use today). As the width of a green board shrinks as it dries, the width of a hole contained within that board has little choice but to shrink as well, wouldn't you agree?

Image a hole 3/4" in diameter in a maple post. We know that sugar maple shrinks tangentially 9.9% from green to oven-dry moisture content. Since our board is not quite green to start off with, and will not quite be oven-dry when it reaches equilibrium, let's assume a very conservative shrinkage of 6%. The 3/4" of wood above and below the hole will shrink in width by 4.5 hundredths of an inch, which will necessarily result in a hole that is 4.5 hundredths of an inch narrower than the original hole. The top-to-bottom diameter of the hole will, of course, remain unchanged. If the rung that was fit into the hole was at equilibrium or even slightly drier, and was properly fit to begin with, you will find that it will be quite difficult indeed to remove the rung from the post when the post dries.

For more information of the practical applications of this technique, I might suggest "Make a Chair from a Tree" by John Alexander or "The Woodwright's Shop" by Roy Underhill.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Hello stranger. ;D

Here is an update to my experiment.



The first set of wood were the dry pieces, before machining. They have been sitting in the house for over a week. They are still fit snugly together as when first machined. No change.

The second where the green pieces that soaked for a week. They easily pulled apart, but were not extremely loose.

The third has the green square piece and the dry dowel, they are tight like a vise. You can't even turn them about the hole.

The 4th set has the dry square and the green dowel. Fell out of the hole, didn't even have to pull them.

Lesson learned, a dry dowel in a green hole will give the tightest grip like was suggested by a few of you already. ;D  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Nice to see that you could prove it with empirical data. I am now more confident that the rocker I'm working on will stand the test of time ;D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

isawlogs

A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

SwampDonkey

Don't disappear for so dang long. Someone has to keep some of us older bucks straight. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

Wow I guess my original intuition was correct.  A green hole will shrink as it dries, albeit only in one direction.  Still, I don't think that's how my handles were done.  I still think it's a straight up press fit of ambient moisture content wood.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

Thing about using greener wood is you don't know if it's going to check and split as it dries.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Howdy Marcel. Good to be back around. The wife has been on me to start posting again, because she wants to go to the Pig Roast again this year. How could I say no? ;D

Brad, I think you are probably right about the handle just being a press fit. A brass pin won't have the 'give' that a wooden dowel does, so I think you might run the risk of splitting the wood if you tried it, like Donk suggested. It probably would have been too risky to attempt on a commercial scale, at least :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

isawlogs


Brad , on the one that has no handle, was there any residue on either peices wood/brass, if not then I would be a press fit. If so then it had glue.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Just Me

 It was common for old chair makers to form the tenons with a bulb shape up at the tenon shoulder and use green wood for the legs so that the legs shrank around the tenons.

Brad_bb

Nope, no residue.  I don't think they used anything.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

If it's dried good like in my first sample, it never changed. I don't know what will happen in the summer with no dry heat. Probably still stay snug. So try a press fit. Can't loose, just a piece of wood and you probably have lots of it. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

Actually I plan to use Curly Maple to press onto the brass sleeves.  ;D
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

Most red maple has curly in the but end anyway, so no worries. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

MattJ

Wanted to share what I learned last week from Roy Underhills class in Pittsboro NC.  He and Bill Anderson were teaching a class on tools sharpening and they also covered tool repair and upkeep.  I had a few drawknives and other tools where I faced the same problem, how to get the wood handle tight, and tight forever.  They said the old way to do it is to first create the hole quite undersized.  Then wrap the blade and other ancillary metal parts in a wet towel, heat the metal part to be inserted red-hot (I was asking about steel tools, brass will be different), and then insert the red hot part into the hole and drive it in, burning the fit into the handle.  As an aside, for anybody who ever is in NC take one of Roy's/Bill's classes (search woodwrights school), it was amazing and they have a antique tool store upstairs that had amazing prices and pieces.  As for the sharpening class I thought I knew what sharp was until I went home with a box of my tools that are beyond scary sharp.

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