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Heating options for woodshops.

Started by Paschale, December 02, 2003, 12:28:21 PM

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Paschale

Hi everyone,

As the weather turns cold, I'm thinking about how best to heat my newly created woodshop (formerly known as a two car garage).  I actually already own a woodstove, and saw the appeal of this on several levels, not the least of which is having a readily available supply of fuel for the fire from projects.  I've not installed it yet for a couple of reasons, partly because I've become quite intimidated in tackling a woodstove installation myself, for fear of potential safety problems.  The more research I do, the more intimidated I get.  Besides, there's only one insurance company (Auto Owners) I've found who is willing to insure me with a woodstove in my shop, and that's under the condition that it be a dedicated shop, and I had planned to still keep my car in there from time to time.  So, the question is, what are some of the methods out there some of you guys have used?  Some people in the past have mentioned Blue Flame ventless space heaters, and I'm also interested in what I think are called "bullet heaters," which run on either kerosene or propane.  Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated too!  My dream scenario would be to run a natural gas line out there from my house and install a small furnace...but that's WAY down the line!

Thanks ahead of time!

Dan in Grand Rapids, MI
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

raycon

I use the torpedo tube kerosene heater and a kerosun space heater. The torpedo tube warms it and the kerosun helps maintain it -works ok.

Picked up a propane heater I have yet to try. Each time I fill the propane tank I get distracted and deep fry something. The boiling peanut oil in the deep fryer puts off some decent heat.

I usually just do metalworking type stuff in the shop I don't know how much saw dust you raise but if its a lot be careful with the open flame in a small shop.

Lot of stuff..

Buzz-sawyer

Well aside from the issue of open flames in a dusty environment(BOOM)...I have a unvented propane heater which is not the BLUE flame rather red infared radiant...man it is the best thing since a pocket invented for a shirt.....100% efficient...no flue, simple job to hook up, safety features out the @$*$^ ...all the heat is used..just the best bang for the buck! (cost $150)
Don 8)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Kirk_Allen

Buzz,
Don you have a problem with moisture in the shop using a nonvented propane heater?

I have heard that if moisture is a concern to alsways use a vented system.

I too am trying to find the best solution as we will be moving back to the family farm and I plan on turning the big garage into my own woodshop.  

I have a huge wood buring stove but Im not sure what it will do regarding moisture in the shop.

Any tips are appreciated.


Buzz-sawyer

Well size of the shop relative to how tight it is sealed...will determine humidity...wood stoves are not a concern...I find the 10,000 btu in my space keeps humidity pleasant ...relative to the static charge provided by winter low humidity...really simple dont have to sweat it...do you plan on using shop as kiln?
I see nooo problem either way............besides the fact you could have an explosion........... that would blow all four walls out .   if you have saw dust in the air....with any kind of open flame
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Viking

hmm..i guess the easyest way to go would be to get a space heater attachment for a propane tank, ive got one that is 15,000BTU and it warms anything up in 1 minute :) you can let it run for however long, then turn it off, and if you start to get cold just start it up agian ,theyare great...

you just screw them onto the top, then point the tank in a certian direction "where you want the heat to go", turn on the gas. and press the igniter

Paschale

Don,

I've been curious about the heaters you mention, the radiant propane heater (I guess either blue or red flame...whatever your favorite color is I suppose!).  Since it's just radiant heat, my thought is that it would take quite awhile to heat up a two car garage, but maybe I'm wrong.  That's the reason I'm drawn to the bullet or torpedo type heaters which blow the air from the very beginning.  Also, with your radiant propane heater, how big is your tank of propane, and how many times out in the shop do you typically get out of one fill up?  

Thanks for all the responses!

Dan
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

Viking

its just the standard size tank, for a camper or barbecue. in the winter a tank will usually last a month, and its only $16 here for a new full tank when you exchange your tank which is really worth it :)

Bill_B

I have a 30x40 pole barn that is convertet to a woodworking shop. It is heated with an old sunbeam wood furnace. I installed a brick chimney with a flue.
One of the best things that i have added is a dust collection system.I plan on adding a downdraft sanding box. You can never get enough of the dust.
Bill B

woodmills1

For woodstove installations I always use metalbestos through the wall or the ceiling and for outside pipe.  The price will make you turn green but it is safe and works.  There are other things like putting any stove pipe in at the bottem and stay away from wood or use sheilding.  Sheilding needs to be spaced away from walls not put directly on it.  Send message with questions ifin ya have em.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Furby

I helped a guy a few houses down build his 24x32 barn, with 12' walls. He got an old propane house furnace and had a 100lb(???) bottle brought in. Works great and heats up fast, you can even use the blower. Old mobile home furnaces are cheap and a little smaller.

Keltic

Although my home is wood heat I use a smallish oil fired hot air furnace in the shop. Its quick and I find it fairly cheap to run, since it's only now and then, and it was free!

SasquatchMan

Dan, It's not so hard, I promise!  I've successfully put a stove in my shop and my house.  It's not too easy to stack up that insulated pipe, but really, the only tricky part of the job is getting up through the roof.

In a garage, the burn box of a wood stove has to be 18" off the ground (where I live, anyhow) so as not to be drawing exhaust vapors.  My garage, which, as you mentioned about your own, is dedicated shop = no vehicles, so the inspector said I was fine on the ground.

Your stove will have clearances, which can be safely reduced with shielding, but in a shop, it shouldn't be too hard.  You need to read up or talk to us folk about how your particular chimney is to run, but really it's not that hard, and well worth it.  Scrap wood from the projects = heat.  It's an equation you can't beat.

If your stove meets code, your insurers shouldn't have any problem - in fact, I think they may HAVE to insure you still, if you get the sucker inspected.
Senior Member?  That's funny.

pappy

Paschale,

Between the house, shop, camps outback we have 5 wood stoves on our property, 11 cords per year  :-/ .  In most northern Maine we heat late September to sometimes into June.  Our firers range from small to kick a$$.  In 30 years of heating w/ wood we had only one chimney fire, we were burning unseasoned wood to slowly and it creosoted up the flue.

Like woodmills I used metalbestos ( 8") through the ceilings, in the shop and one of my camps.  In the shop I have a TOP LOADING wood stove w/ 6" pipe straight up and a oil fired mobile home furnace(backup) w/ 5" pipe tapped in with a T.

I have a 4'X 5' piece of galvanized sheet metal suspended 1" away from a 4' X 8' piece of fire stop ( sheet rock w/ a fancy name) which is suspended 1 1/2" away from the finished wall using 2 X 2's. Spacers for the metal I used 1/2" copper pipe 1" long and drywall screws. The stove is only 12" away from the sheet metal. Under the wood stove on the wooden floor I placed another piece of 4' X 4' sheet metal.

This system has worked very well for us for the twenty years we've been here. The shop is 25' X 30' with dust collection.

The insurance guy really liked the setup.  8)  8) He also told me the stats show it's electricity that burns down most wood shops and not wood stoves.  

I would be leery of a propane heater, a friend of mine has the non-vented one (red flame) great for a camp, BUT I would NEVER install one in a wood shop, it has an unshielded open flame.

Keep it clean and safe,

termite
"And if we live, we shall go again, for the enchantment which falls upon those who have gone into the woodland is never broken."

"Down the Allagash."  by; Henry Withee

SasquatchMan

One thing I like about my wood stove in the shop is that it is always sucking air, and it actually helps to clean the air that way.  I understand that really dusty air is explosive, but constantly burning the dust out of the air and pulling in fresh air through the 1" gap under my crappy door has worked pretty well. :-/
Senior Member?  That's funny.

woodmills1

here is a shot of a heat sheil I installed on the kitchen stove pipe, it was way too close to the wall.  Notice it is spaced with short copper pipe and that the wall had done some charring before we got here.  They had flame proof material directly on the wall.



Dang nab it here is the stove too :D




James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

SasquatchMan

Hey woodmills, that stove wouldn't meet code here - too many 90 degree bends in the pipe!  That shielding looks really nice - best I've seen.
Senior Member?  That's funny.

Gus

I've always found, that in the colder climate thatI live in, A block chimney lined with a flue works best. The creasote always builds up right where the chimney is exposed to the elements due to the natural cooling of the outside air on the chimney. On a tall shop this could get kinda expensive I know but on a garage type shop, like say one with a 9' ceiling, they are not to pricey provided the work is done "in house".
On an outside chimney I cut a square hole in the wall from stud to stud wide and again that high and laid fire brick in the hole all except a small piece of stove pipe in the center. Cemented it in and hooked stove pipe to the stove on the inside  and chimney on the outside. The chimney was about 1' from the wall on the outside.
I guess that metalbestos works pretty good but I've never used it. Always thought it would cool to fast. Allowing creasote to build up. Like I said I've never used it. Maybe not.
I had a neighbor that used an old culvert for a chimney for years in his shop. He had good luck with it.

Some of these suggestions may sound kind of backwards but they are reasonable. All were relatively safe.
Gus
"How do I know what I think unless I have seen what I say?"

woodmills1

You are correct that masonary is best, what i mean about metalbestos is in all 4 of the times I used it when masonry wasn't an option it works, does what it says, doesn't cool too fast for creasote formation and has very small reccommeneded clearances that are safe.  I would never use the non insulated 2 or 3 wall pipe that is supposed to rely on air movement.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Paschale

Hey everybody--

Thanks a lot for the replies!  I really appreciate it!  I've been doing a lot of research online and in the stores, and I'm beginning to think that the woodstove might be the best way to go.  Some guys I've talked to have said there's a real problem with the ventless systems with moisture buildup.  Plus, from what I've seen, you get maybe 14 hours out of one 20 lb tank with the bullet/torpedo heaters.  And with those ventless ones, you need a 100 lb tank, and you get around 72 hours.  I think that would add up fairly quick and give you a big old dent in the pocket book!

There are some reasons I think the woodstove would work great in my case.  First of all, the bottom 3-4 feet of my structure is below ground and is poured concrete, so I don't need to worry so much about clearance from the stove.  I understand I need a 36" clearance from the stove pipe to the wall, which is easily done.  Where I get worried, as Sasquatch Man mentioned, is going through the roof.  The nice thing is that I can go straight up--no need for any bends or anything, and it's a straight shot from the floor straight to the roof, so that should help ease of installation.  I know tons of people have done this successfully, but I guess my main source of intimidation is the fact that I'm completely green with this!  So, I guess I'd appreciate taking advantage of some of you guys who have experience with woodstoves with a couple of questions.

A couple of you mentioned metalbestos--is this a brand of stovepipe?  Or some sort of heat shield system?  Here in Grand Rapids, it seems the easiest place to get woodstove equipment is at Menards.  They stock Duravent.  Are any of you guys familiar with this at all?  Also, they have insulated piping that they say you need to use for the external chimney.  I've wondered if I should use this the whole way through from the stove all the way out.  I know you'd lose a lot of radiant heat which usually comes from the single wall pipe.  But I gotta tell you...as I look at the Duravent diagram, they have you send the single wall pipe up to the roof, into a stove pipe adaptor, which takes the pipe into the roof heat shield.  I get nervous right there--they say that as you install the single wall stove pipe, you need a 36" clearance to the nearest wall.  Here's where I have a big question mark--it seems to me that as the single wall pipe goes into the roof heat shield, the stovepipe coming up to the roof is certainly within 36" inches of the roof--that heat shield sticking through the roof certainly doesn't come down over the stovepipe 36".  So I might have 36" clearance to the nearest wall, but there's no way from that diagram that I could draw a sphere 36" all the way around that stove pipe as it gets near to the roof.  Does this make ANY sense at all?  Honestly, this is the biggest sticking point for me--how to safely send it through the roof.  Which is why I've thought about using the fully insulated piping all the way from the stove straight through the roof.  But that's probably overkill.

If what I describe is WAY too confusing, I think I can probably scan in the diagram from Duravent.

One other quick question:  when someone inspected your woodstove installation, who did the inspection?  Was it an insurance agent or somebody with your local government?  

Thanks for all the help, and patience with a newbie with this stuff!  I'm anxious to get my shop up and running, since I've got a stack of ash that I milled last year that's ready to go.  I had a lot of help then with that project, and I sure appreciate the help now!

Dan in Grand Rapids

Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

chet

Heated my wood shop for many years with a wood stove. Saw dust explosion was never a worry. I did worry with dust being drawn in and settling on top of the stove by the distribution fan. What really bothered me was an open flame and solvent and finishing fumes.
I still heat my shop with wood but now it don't worry me NONE. It's heated with the same outdoor boiler dat heats da house.  ;D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

craigc90

 I have heated my last 2 houses and garages with woodburners and would not trade it for anything. We just built a new house a year ago with an electric furnace New Years Eve I bought a woodburner after paying my $350.00 electric bill. The electric furnace has not run since. If you are not going to keep it heated all the time. Torpedo heaters work good. My brother heates his woodshop with one and has never had any fire problems. He has it plugged into a thermostat and he can maintain an even temperature without having to keep turning it on and off himself. I do think it uses alot of kerosene and probably not very efficient.As for installing its very easy. I bought my wood furnace and the pipe and the roof pass through kit at Tractor Supply. They all came with detailed installation instructions. I went with triple wall insulated stainless steel interlocking pipe with a store bought wall roof pass thru. I can put my hand on the pipe 3 feet from the woodburner with a good fire going in it. The pipe is guarenteed for 15 years. I went from the basement to 4 feet above the peek of my ranch home and have $700.00 in the pipe and passthu and all the hardware.  A block chimney might not cost very much more but I like doing things myself and I dont know how to lay block.Maybe some of this info will help.

Buzz-sawyer

[  Some guys I've talked to have said there's a real problem with the ventless systems with moisture buildup.  Plus, from what I've seen, you get maybe 14 hours out of one 20 lb tank with the bullet/torpedo heaters.  And with those ventless ones, you need a 100 lb tank, and you get around 72 hours.  I think that would add up fairly quick and give you a big old dent in the pocket book!

I like wood too...but you gotta tend it 24/7 and it takes forever (seems) to heat up a cold shop....maybe do both quick heat and long lasting radiant heat that will dispose of yer wood scraps!
About fuel consumtion on propane...I have used these type heaters for 7 years to heat my home and monitored them closely...and seen nothing like the consumption you mention...however you would need your local propane company to bring out a little 250 gallon tank (usually free including plumbing to your house/shed)....bottled gas cost at least 200% more than bulk...no comparison...I heat a 1000 foot area with little insulation 24 /7 for about $50-$90 a month...in Illinois....
good luck with the shop show us some pics when done
Don


    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

SasquatchMan

Dan - we had the insurance guy look at the one in our house, as it was a replacement for an old one and therefore no permit was pulled = no building inspector.  For my shop, as it was a new install, i had to pull a permit and have the inspector through, which also satisfied the insurer.

Going through the roof with the type A insulated metal chimney (this is the ten inch O.D. 6 inch I.D. stainless pipe from Canadian tire) consists of buying a kit which includes a roof flashing, something called an attic insulation shield (a collar which is 14" around, which gives you 2" clearance all the way around the chimney - keeps the insulation back), a stove pipe adapter (SPA) (which is how you go from 6" black pipe to the insulated stuff.  The SPA is ordinarily "hung" in the ceiling joists, and actually supports the insulated chimney above.

It's fiddly as hell, and you have to have 2" airspace all along that pipe (to combustibles), but the mechanics are pretty simple.  Most kits have excellent instructions as well.  Supervent is a brand I've used, but there are lots of others
Senior Member?  That's funny.

Stan

The tract I lived in, had water heaters in the laundry space which was contiguous with the garage. I think about half of them caught on fire from the pilot flame igniting gasoline vapors. Now whether the cars leaked gas, or if gas was stored in the garages I can't say. But I'd never use an exposed flame in any area where autos were kept.  ::)
I may have been born on a turnip truck, but I didn't just fall off.

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