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Heaps Planer

Started by Paul_H, November 30, 2003, 01:46:48 PM

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Paul_H

Last year I bought an old 4 sided planer driven by flat belts.It is around a 1950 vintage with roller bearings and square heads.It works well for dressing lumber and t&g-ing 3/4" flooring and 11/2" decking.

On air dried lumber,there has been minimal tear out,same for VG kiln dried.But when we tried to run flat grain kd (7%) 1x8 flooring last weekend,the tear out was unacceptable.The knives were sharp,and the feed speed was at 10 knife marks per inch.We have no jointer bar on the Planer.

Thankfully I had some really good links that DonP had sent last year,that showed bevel angles and diagrams for the old square headed knives.





Because of these diagrams,I was able to fax them down to the place we have our knives ground,and they put another bevel on,according to specs (150 both faces)

While the knives were being ground,we changed a pulley on the feed,from 6" to 4" and slowed the feed rate down so there are now around 14 knife marks per inch.



I built and added the pulley assembly last year.There used to be one belt between the variable speed shiv on the drive shaft,to the wooden shiv attached to the rubber tire (yes,a rubber tire) :)



Here is a simple gauge made out of flat bar,that rests on the heads,and sets the knives.


 Side view of bellts and wheels for top and bottom heads.My wife came by and dropped off lunch while we were running the floor yesterday.She said it looks like the planer belongs in Heritage Park(Calgary) :D



We were really happy with the results from the knife bevels and feed rate changes.The floor is 1x8 Douglas Fir.The customer wanted a micro groove on the flooring

I'm hoping that some of you can help me come up with a better gauge for the knives.Would a couple of large magnets witha step machined in it help? There isn't alot of clearance to get in by the heads.

Another question,is there a better speed setup that I could use instead of changing out pulleys? I was wondering about the type you see on a drill press?
 
Any advice would be welcome.


Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Larry

I bought an old 24" Crescent planer some years ago to plane WRC 2X6's out of old power poles for decks.  Ran a few million through the old dog.  Square head with only two knives.  It did a good job on the WRC but the supply of power poles dried up.  Tried running oak through it and chipout was extremely bad so went the same way as you and put a bevel on the back side of the knives to change the cutting angle.  Was a big improvement but just barely acceptable.  Worked ok for skip planing.

To set the knives I put a dial indicator on the planer bed.  The knives had slots and were bolted to the square head.  Only took about 15 minutes to change the 2 knifes and they were parallel to the bed within a couple of thousandths.  BTW the knives were home made out of old paper knives that the local newspaper gave me.

Yes the old planer belongs in a museum some place.  Hope the guy that bought it puts it there after he runs a few more million feet through it. ;D

The planer had 3 speeds by flat belt.  Took about 10 seconds to change speed.



Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Paul_H

Good stuff Larry!

The knives on the Heaps are slotted too.There are threaded bolt holes on two sides of the heads,and the other two sides have a slot machined the length of the heads for square headed bolts to slide in for other knives.I still haven't seen a closeup pic of a jointer bar,to figure out if one could be added to the Heaps.Did the Crescent have one?

You're right about these old machines running forever.A freind in another town has a 108 Berlin that was built in the 1920's.It has been re-babbitted and tuned up and is producing some very nice products.

Old Woodworking Machines

Crescent

It looks like they are looking for information on Crescent over on  OWWM.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Larry

The Crescent had a chipbreaker bar.  It was wore out when I got the machine but a little machine work got it back in shape and that also made an improvement.  Not for sure if that is the same as a jointer bar or not?

You might want to consider replacing the bolts for the slotted knives.  They fatigue after time and you sure don't want to throw a knife.  Use grade 8 bolts.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Paul_H

I've had a hard time finding bolts for the planer.Did manage to round up some with a wide head and had the machine shop take some off of the head so they don't sit too proud.

The side head bolts are 1/2" and the main heads are 5[/size]/8" with a 7/8 head

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H

Another question.Does anyone have the Makita 9820-2 grinding wheel? My longest knives are 13" and I have to send them to Vancouver to be sharpened.Usually it is a minor nick,but enough that they need a tune up. It's a minimum $50 after the bill to sharpen,and shipping comes in.

Here is the link.I'm really considering buying it,but not if it turns out to be hokey.

Makita 9820-2
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

woodbeard

Paul, I bought the Makita for sharpening 12" knives and I do NOT like it. The wheel is nice, and can produce an awesome edge, but the knife holding jig is awful. The clamp itself is good solid cast iron, but it sits on 2 cheesy threaded rods in a plastic case. It comes with a 1000 grit stone which cuts way too slow for planer knives if they have any nicks. You can get a 120 grit, but it's about $75.
 I find it's still really good for chisels and small tools, but I kinda wish I'd forked out the extra $$ for the Tormek sharpener.

Norm

I sure like the flooring you've got there Paul, I remember when you showed pic's of the flooring you made for your house, nice stuff. 8) If you ever get some pics of CVG flooring that you run I'd sure like to see it.

I run into the same thing with our planer knives. The ones for the woodmaster are 27" and cost too much to have sharpened by someone else. I need something that will last and do a good job. Sounds like I'll have to look into the Tormek that woodbeard spoke of.

btw, thanks for covering my tracks Paul, I was going to post a thank you there but thought to myself that wouldn't be very smart.  :D

dail_h

   Paul,
   Check with a machine shop supplier,I got some square head bolts for an old American moulde that I had several years ago. They use them for bolting clamps to milling machines 'n such.
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

Larry

I got my Crescent from a guy that was retiring from the woodworking business.  He showed me how he sharpened knives.  He put a grinding stone in his RAS, turned the head 90 degrees, and had a jig to hold the knife.  He said it worked excellent and he used it to sharpen knives for all the other cabinet shops in the area for years.  Of course his RAS had a crosscut of about 3'.  I don't have a RAS near that big but it got me to thinking.  I rescued an old 8" Craftsman tablesaw no longer in use.  Mounted a 6" stone in place of the blade.  Clamped a straight edge fence at right angles to the stone.  Made a jig to hold the knife and slid the jig along the fence.  Used a 1725 rpm motor so the stone ran a lot slower than what a blade would run so I wouldn't burn the steel.  
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

pappy

Hey guys,
Just a though,  :P

I've had my Bridgewood BWM314 for eight years now and at first I would send the top head knives out for sharpening. At $50 bucks a whack  :o I started looking elsewhere.  I found the Esta knife system and decided to give it a try.

In a nutshell it's a holder for a double sided 1/16" thick planer knife. They have been holding up very well and takes very little time to change them.

After the initial investment ( if my memory serves me right $250) the knives run around $130 for a dozen double edged knives 12" long, that's $5.40 per cutting edge !!!!
 
Give em a call to see if they make the holder for your make of planer ??

Here's the link if you're interested.

http://www.estausa.com/

I'm just a satisfied customer.   :)
termite
"And if we live, we shall go again, for the enchantment which falls upon those who have gone into the woodland is never broken."

"Down the Allagash."  by; Henry Withee

Steve

Thanks Termite, I've been looking for them. I'm gonna give them a try.
I happened across them once and didn't save the address, then couldn't find it when I tried and now you hand it to me.

Have a good day
steve
Steve
Hawaiian Hardwoods Direct
www.curlykoa.com

Paul_H

Woodbeard,
Thanks for the heads up on the Makita.I checked out the Tormek and am waiting to hear back from a local supplier on price and availability through them.It looks like I'll need a jig as well for planer knives.Need to find out if it will hold 3/8 x 3" x 13" long.

Larry,The tablesaw idea is interesting.I have an ancient Eatons with a 4" jointer on the side.If the Tormek doesn't pan out,I might go pester John at the machine shop.He runs a nice operation on his farm,and has been really good to deal with on a few different projects.John was the one that put me on to the Planer in the first place,and just milled up another pair of side heads on trade for lumber.

He should also be able to help me find the bolts that dail_h mentioned.

Norm,
I have another load of CVG on the Hiab, waiting for it's turn in the kiln.Will probably run it in early Spring when the snow is retreating.I have another order of 1 1/2 x 6" t&g to run in a couple of weeks for flooring in a customers timber frame house.I'm trying to talk him into having it kiln dried down to at least 10%. He said he's not too worried about shrinkage,so I'll run it either way.

Yeah, you're right Norm,reposting might have defeated the purpose :D  Hope you found a source here on the forum.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Don P

Glad Woodbeard posted it first, I deleted my response this morning...I'll just say ditto  :D.
Someone posted a link to a sharpener not long ago, was it a Grizzly or Reliant? Dang memory ::).

Don P

It was from a sharpening chisels thread, it's a grizzly. Looks promising.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G2790

Paul_H

Thanks Don.
I downloaded the manual on the Grizzly so I could read up on it.It doesn't have water on the stone,will that be a problem?

The Tormek has water,but will hollow grind the knives.The oldtimer I bought the planer from,told me that hollow ground is better. Yet the outfit that grinds my knives,flat grinds them.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

dail_h

   Paul,
   I wracked my brain all day ,got the bolts from Wholesale Tool
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

Paul_H

Thank you Dail.
Do you know where they are located? I punched in the name on Google,and it kept coming up Ebay.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Fla._Deadheader

Paul, in case ya didn't know, if ya get a referrence to someone on ebay, go to the link and there should be a contact seller link there.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

UNCLEBUCK

Hi Paul H , say when you run your white oak through your 4 sided planer do you check the end grain before you send the board through so the cupping effect is face down or doesnt it matter with tongue and groove , very nice t&g and looks like a heavy duty old planer, thanks ! :P
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Paul_H

UB,
when I'm feeding boards I try and do what you are saying,and keep the side that was closest to the center of the log,as the bottom side of the floor.The other thing to watch for is to keep any wane,on the tongue side,because it usually is cleaned up when the material is taken away from either side of the tongue.

I'm not very good at explaining things,unless I can wave my arms and draw pictures in the dirt for the person.

I always remember Tom's rule.Avoid getting pith on the floor,by keeping the heart side of the board down.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

UNCLEBUCK

Thanks for the reply Paul_H , that was a very good explanation of what to do . Good luck with your big ol" planer  ;)
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Paul_H

Today we ran 1800 bf of 2x12 t&g for a local guy's Timberframe house.Barry was a faller for years and got smashed up pretty bad about four years ago.He has been back falling again but has also been working a lot with a loghome builder and timberframer.He is planning on getting out of the logging industy and into custom log and timber work.




There were three of us working to run the 2x12's through.Doug(in the picture) and I were feeding and Dougs brother Geordie was stacking onto the trailer.We have all logged together over the years but all of us are looking to get out of the logging industry and into something else.



After just a few boards,the shavings are already piling up.





Barry snapped a picture of me leaning on the trailer.
It went well with the exception of two boards that jammed and had to be backed out.They were over 2 1/4 thick and we finished to 1 5/8.It took us two hours in total from the time they arrived and we unloaded,til the time they left.The boards will be his upstairs floor,and will be exposed to the main floor.

It's good to be out of the house again!


Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

pasbuild

Don
 I had the Grizzly sharpener that you are looking at and it is not worth it. The post that holds and adjusts the table is a single piece of all thread that has enough play in it that the table doesn't stay parallel to the stone when sharpening blades. Lost it to a garage fire and don't miss it.
If it can't be nailed or glued then screw it

shopteacher

I had the Makita with three different grit stones and it will do a good job, but as stated earlier it's very slow going and if you have to remove a nick you'll need to sharpen it razor sharp to take off the beard you'll have by the time your done.  I now have a Tormeck and it's a great machine for sharpening just about everything. I have a 12" powermatic and a 20 " Delta planer and sharpen the knives on it.  I like the machine, but feel it's over priced. I have about 700.00 in it with the knife holder and a couple other holding devices.
    I use to sharpen my knives on a Rockwell vertical mill. I made a holder to clamp the knife in at the desired angle and set the power feed to run the knife under a pink grinding wheel which I set at a right angle to the table.  Worked well, but you had to be carefull not to draw the temper out of the edge by grinding to fast or to deep.  I just picked up a DoAll surface grinder that I'm going to try a fix up for knife grinding.  I seen a knife grinder at Bridgewood's showroom, it was a prototype from a company that was trying to get Bridgewood to market it for them, and was a really neat setup.  It had a tank about 6" deep with a stationary knife holder in the bottom.  On top was a carriage with the grinding head that ran back and forth across the top of the tank. The knife was flooded by a coolant system as it was ground.  I started to build one like it but never finished it up.
    At school I purchased the Esta holders and inserts for our 20"Delta 580 and they do work well. The school used to pay a guy 100.00 to come in change the knifes and regrind the set. With the Esta system I can change knives whenever I want, takes me about 35 minutes to change the three knives and each change cost about 30.00 I believe. They have 2 sharp sides to each insert.  When both sides are used I cut them up and make carving knives out of the insert. There's some good steel in those inserts.
   Grizzly now sell the holders and inserts.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Norm

Sounds like your planer can really go through the wood Paul, I get cabin fever so bad this time of year I'll do anything to get out of the house even if it means layering up. What do they use the 2x12's for?

Sure wish you and your planer were closer to me. :)

I bought the tormek sharpener recently, good machine but pretty expensive for what you get. The jig for holding the planer knives is kind of hard to adjust for side to side adjustment. I was paying $20 per set to sharpen tho so it is nice to be able to do my own.

Paul_H

Norm,
The 2x12's will be the floor for the upstairs loft in Barry's house,and they will be exposed to the main floor.I tried to talk him into kiln drying them down to at least 10% but he said he didn't mind shrinkage.They are around 15-19% now.

I still don't have the cruise control hooked up properly and I had to run out a few times and pull on the throttle.We have a speedometer in the shack and try to keep the planer running at 30 mph.If it dropped to 20 mph before I could get to the throttle,the belts would start to slip.

It's good to hear about the grinders again.The last three sets I sent out cost $100 cdn + tax,and $15 each way for shipping on the bus.I asked the guy at the hardware about finding a price on the Tormek,and he said he would look into a couple of options.
His father in law had a tool rental business and a sharpening service but has retired.He is going to bring me a grinder to look at that he thinks will work well for me.I don't know what make or model yet.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Paul_H

Well the talk about grinders got me going again so after I loaded the kiln today I drove 40 minutes North of here and looked at the grinder that the hardware guy (Clint) had.

It is a Foley Belsaw and he wanted $200 cdn for it.I thought that was a good deal so I paid for it and threw it in the truck.Clint had some industrial knife grinders and other sharpening tools there that he uses for commercial sharpening.He said he can take care of my knives if they get really haywire.The good thing about using him is I can drop the knives off at the drugstore in town and his daughter will take them to him at night.
It costs $30 to ship them to the other place I get them sharpened.







In the mean time,I want to try my hand at sharpening the knives on the Belsaw so we don't have to rely on someone else.





Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

shopteacher

So that's where Grizzly got their design for the sharpener.  I don't know how these companies get past all the patents and copyright laws.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

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