iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

how do you fire you're son???

Started by red oaks lumber, January 02, 2011, 02:18:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

red oaks lumber

over the years ive had several employees, including my son.he started working fulltime after he graduated h.s.(5 yrs ago) in that time he has built a house and settled in.his work performance has been going down hill for sometime, i say things but who am i ? just the boss. in his mind i'm still dad just talking out my hindend. last spring there was an oppertunity for him to do all the sawing, so he bought his own woodmizer . i would pay him by the b.f. to do all the sawing. still working for me fulltime and sawing night and weekends. seems like a good deal for him right? as the year wore on his  sawing and work in general has gone downhill, putting me in a tough spot where scheduling is concerned with my customers jobs.
now i find myself sawing at night  and weekends, working more hours at the shop.the easy answer is fire him but, that puts the rub with his mother , my wife. also with the poor economy where would he find a job so he does't lose his house.
we no longer have a father/son relationship something has to give but what? any advice would be very helpful....
thankyou
steve
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

northwoods1


Redoaks, its easy for me to say, much harder to do, but I would just sit down and have a heart to heart talk with him. Tell him things have to change, and why. Working with family can either be the best situation in the world or the worst. Either way when it comes to business, that is exactly what  is... business. Sounds like you may have given him a little to easy of a siutation to fall into. A person has a different perspective when they have to work for everything they have and it is not just placed in there lap.
Another thing you could do is just give him a little competition somehow. Just get it through his head that he can be replaced. Course you have to be prepared to replace him, idle threats won't work. Good luck to you I am sure things will get better for you. It is a new year, tomorrow is a new day. Good luck!

weimedog

Quote from: northwoods1 on January 02, 2011, 02:30:41 PM


Another thing you could do is just give him a little competition somehow. Just get it through his head that he can be replaced. Course you have to be prepared to replace him, idle threats won't work. !

100 percent agree with this...actions will speak louder than words, especially from "dad"....worst thing any parent can do is to prove time and again they will "fix it" what ever it is for their kids, because then they grow BIG kids (dependents) instead of adults...make him work for his money and his respect...

(I've raised 6 now, three boys of mine & one boy & two girls that came with the current marriage deal...I raised them so I see them as mine, and I'm very fortunate to have them in my life.)
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

jim king

One night when our son was 17 my wife and I came back from the farm to Minneapolis and found that he had moved out with his clothes , bedroom furniture etc. to live with his girlfriend.  I spent all night turning his bedroom into an office so if he came back the bedroom was no more.

Best thing I could have done.  He has long since become civilized and normal with a nice family and now works hard and doing well.  Treat him as any other employee if he has gone off track.  Treat him better than other employees if he is doing better.  >:( >:(

Bill

Even though I don't have this particular experience I am reminded by a phrase -

" Tough " love .

It's hard to practice ( everyone has their own situation that they have to live with ) but I think its good advice  - just tempered to your own situation. Hopefully strong family values will prevail .

Good Luck


WildDog

Steve responsibility may be the way to go, has he got the skills to assist in running the business, if so you could offer him a partnership, you two would get to sit down together and rewrite the who does what, it would remove the "Boss" out of it, may help to spur him on and salvage the father/son relationship. I remember how my fathers attitude to most things became more positive when my Grandfather made him a partner.  This could also backfire.  ;D............................Then again don't take my advice, both my older boys moved out last year saying, "You work us too hard on the farm dad" The older boy is now doing rural fencing full time and knows what hard work is all about :)

If you start feeling "Blue" ...breath    JD 5510 86hp 4WD loader Lucas 827, Pair of Husky's 372xp, 261 & Stihl 029

SPIKER

I worked for small company over 10 years where for a time the son was a worker, now basically the owner & operator I learned a lot from them both and still feel like one of the family as I stop by a few times a year and at holidays ect.   There was a time when the son was heavily into his band thing toured Europe & USA several times when I was first working there.   He married his high school sweetheart now has 2 boys and is running the place.   He left and came back after I left the company as his dad needed the help and he got a lot of good experience out on his own having to fend for himself and is a much better man for it now.   I know there was a loss of work performance when he left and I know his dad and he got into it several times regarding it.   For a while they didnt get a long well but after he learned how the real world was he has really done good for himself.

If you let them get away with stuff then he will keep getting away with it until stuff gets way worse.

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Dan_Shade

do you have tangable objectives as a business?  This could be a volume objective or something similar.  You could also include quality measures.

it could be that you and your son are working to different objectives.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Autocar

I agree with Northwoods I would set him down and ask him if he was having a problem that might affect his work. If the answer is no I would explain to him that when he first started with you he was a go getter. But lately you were having to work weekends ect to pick up the slack. And would make a point to say you don't mind helping out when bussiness gets hecket. But felt that he was dropping the ball on his end. Sometimes we all get bored but he has a responsibility thats life. If hes not interested in the bussiness your have to find someone that is . It will be January 3 a new year in the morning one thing for sure don't put it off it will never be easy. But do it before you lose your cool and drive a wedge between you and your son. Thats my two cents but here again we never had any children and Ive always gave my opinion to parents about there problems  ::)
Bill

Meadows Miller

Gday

Steve its a hard call to make from a distance it also might not have anything to do with work  is there anything else that is not going rite or not as he expected too go for him in his life atm like relationship issues , depression there could be a whole host of other things involved that could account for his lack of motivation and drive to get things done  Mate  ??? ;)

With Partnerships with family members the last three generations of my family have worked in family business partnership's with their Fathers and I was in a silent partnership with My Mum and Dad from when I was about 16yo to when we had to close the business about five years in total  the 1/3s partnership was not given either as I had worked from when i was 13 to 18 yo with only taking a min amount capital out of the business i also had part time jobs on top of working 9 to 12 hrs a day like lumping firewood and hay and sorting semi loads of beer orders for the pubs so I had cash flow from other things to do what I wanted with back then  ;)

Offering a Partnership is not going to be a quick fix if there are underling issues that are not delt with and Clear objectives set out at the start they do not work out for either party most of the time if those two main things are not taken care off at the start but the ones that do work usually work really well for everyone involved   ;)

My dad and I work well together and always have but like most father and son teams we can have our moments which we have had some pretty decent blow ups from both sides over the years  :o :) ;) :D :D :D  I have been back giving Mum and Him a hand to get their new  Log Building Business going for about the last nine months its been all work n bugger all pay due to hold ups with log supply which has been the main issue but  the main thing is that my loan repayments covered each month I have a roof over My head and three feeds a day  ;) Once logs start landing in the yard on a regular basis it will be All Systems Go around here which I am looking forward to it  I can also then get back into getting my own things going like they should be ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Kansas

If I read your post correctly, is he trying to work full time for you during the day,and then trying to saw after hours? That may actually be the problem. A person can work a lot of hours in a week. Pile on week after week, then it becomes a problem eventually. I used to push myself both at the business and running the farm. Sure, I could do it for awhile. But eventually you crash. I don't know if that is the problem. But you might figure out how many hours you actually want him to work for both his job for you and sawing on the side. There is a limit, and everyone has a different limit.

I have somewhat of a similar dilemma. My son is in the air force. He grew up as a sprout around the business as it started from the ground up. I have always wanted him to come back to the business. When he was back for a visit, he finally told me he wanted to eventually plan to come back. Before that, he would tell other people he planned on coming back, but not me. It scares me. We have different philosophies on spending money. I also have a business partner. Somehow that would all have to mesh together. He has done very well in the Air Force, and I know he is highly competent.  I hate the thought of putting all this together and have it end when I get too old to run things.

red oaks lumber

when i was 16 my parents gave me an opportunity to buy 40 acers of land (they co signed) by the time i was 18 i had a 5 man logging crew going  more opportunities followed.i never had a good  relatoinship with my father but, things worked out. my son and i always had a very good bond but, his opportunies have only driven a wedge between us,we have talked and talked he understands but, the results are the same.
maybe working to much but, only working 40 during the week and still not sawing on the weekend i dont think thats to much, if i work side by side  with him he'll go 20hrs / day maybe trying to keep up with the old man. maybe working alone he dosent have the drive to do it
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

metalspinner

Quote.his work performance has been going down hill for sometime, i say things but who am i ? just the boss.

Do you have regular job performance reviews with all of your employees?  If so, you should be able to document to him the long term down turn in his performance.  That way if you ultimately have to fire him, he cannot say it was out of the blue. 

My wife has to handle these performance reviews with several employees that work under her in the office.  And each year she struggles with having to give a negative review.  I hear all of her frustrations throughout the year, so I know some of these people should get their heads handed to them.  If there is not a clear path to a firing, the company can find itself in a poor legal position.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Chuck White

Just let his job performance show in his pay check!

When the wallet gets hit, people pay more attention to detail.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

doctorb

Lots of good advice here before me.  I have not been in your situation but, obviously, others have. 

My suggestions would be simple.  Sit him down and ask him what he wants.  Does he want to work for you at all?  Have you placed too big a burden on him?  Is he sending you a message through his performance?  Has he lost his motivation?  What other problems outside of work could be causing this performance decline?

Then I would tell him what you need and expect.  Tell him what changes can be made, and which changes are deal-breakers.  Level with him about your expectations and ask him if he thinks they are too high.  Tell him how his performance is affecting your life and business.  Then tell him that you two can work it out, if he sincerely wants to do so.  Maybe it means buying the lumber instead of paying him to cut it.  Maybe he'd rather sit on the porch with a beer.  Tell him about the awkwardness of bveing both boss and father, and ask him to assess what he would do in the same situation.

He's got to understand you are disappointed in his work ethic.  He's got to understand that he can fix that if he chooses.  He also has to understand that the son only gets a "family" break from dad for so long, and then maybe it would be better for you two to part ways as boss and employee, but not as father and son.  Make sure you protect the latter while agreeing that a father / son work relationship may not be best for either of you. You need his help in solving this, so ask him for it.  I think that this will work better than telling him off.  Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

lumberjack48

This kind of work has to be in your blood. I raised to boys in the business they were top notch loggers, but it just wasn't in them. I fired them, rehired them and fired them again, their roofers now and doing real good.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Piston

That's a tough situation and I can't offer any fatherly business advice because my only kids are dogs...but from a "son" perspective, maybe if you could convince your son that he is hurting you and his mom by losing work or not getting jobs done, and it affects you guys, he would be a little more motivated. 
I know for me, if I felt like my actions were hurting my parents, that's all I would need to be the best I possibly could be. 

If I was performing poorly, I sure hope my dad would fire me.....


Also depending on your son's personality, you could sit him down and explain it to him, and ask him honestly what HE would do if HE was the boss, and have HIM make the tough decision.  I have done this with some of the guys that work for me and it has worked in the past, but they have to respect you in order for this method to work. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Bro. Noble

I've worked with my son all his life except while he was away to college.  He's all the time doing stuff that drives me crazy,  but it's not always his fault ;)  I've learned that there are some things that he does well and likes to do and others that disappoint me.  Some things he will do on his own and others that I need to work with him or do myself.  I'm getting slower and find that I can't do as much and have to go to the house early now and then.  Most of the time he really steps up to the plate and makes me feel proud.  He's my son in any case and I feel fortunate to have him with me.  Maybe you just need to fit the job to your son and give him a little more reign?  Good luck :)
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Jasperfield

I believe that Doctorb's advice (and it is advice as opposed to commentary because you asked for imput) is sound.

You are (or should be) the head of the family. You are in charge. Not your son and not your wife. She should recognize this and support you rather than pull in the opposite direction. They are moving laterally because it has been tolerated

This problem, and others similar, could have been averted years ago when the son was a child.

Take the Doc's advice, and then make and implement your decisions.

D Hagens


  Hey I have a novel idea, why not just print this thread out and hand it to him. Ask him to read it and meet you for lunch. I'm pretty sure he will clue in by then. :)

H60 Hawk Pilot

I like the Idea of Printing this Post and handing it to him and have him read it competely.

I read a lot of good advice & ideas.

Operating a Business as a Business is Vital. Working Arrangement's in a family business is Dicey in most of the arrangement's I've seen.

I noted that he's working extended hours for you and it's a day in and day out deal.  I have worked two jobs (like my dad) most of my life and it get's old after several years. I remember when I worked for a bus company as a diesel mechanic (2nd 8 hr. job) in the evening. I got tired and was not working too good at the end of the shift at midnight. My boss noticed this and said that I needed to maintain the work pace all night long or else. I gave my notice a week later and it was the best for everyone. Working Day & Night for anyone is tough for the long term deal and most likely.. would not work out (long term) for anyone.. being your Son or a Employee that's doing the same thing (working 12 to 18 hr's. / day).   

It's none of my business and do not reply, but he may have other distraction's going on i.e.  wife, girl friend, whatever and another reason for his down turn. I alway's trade the shoes around and give the other person the floor... let them make the recomendation's " How do We Fix this Problem ? " Also, plan A, B, etc. and bench marks to ensure we are solving the problem (weekly accessment's) for real and No back slide. 

Timing is important and how you present this to person X (regarding any important business meeting). In your case, you have advance knowledge of how to talk with your Son and When (works the best).
   
So, Weigh all this information out, and have a Business Talk and Agree to Agree to Maintain your Business Plan and Sucessful Operation thereof.  If things are Not that productive on the 1st talk, reload it a day or so later. Having both party's sleep on things (decisions and fix's) can really help work things out and have lasting results for the Good of the Ship (family bus.). 


Avery
     
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

sandhills

I'm writing this from a "sons" perspective, please don't take it wrong.  My first thought was to let him read this thread, before others had said the same, but I don't think that's the answer.  I farm with my dad, I worked two part time jobs, am divorced and remarried, and through it all, all I can say is communication is the key.  I don't care if it's sawmilling, farming, or whatever sit down and talk.  I got up at 1:30 to go milk got done with that, did my own work and was back milking at 1:30 again, then back to my own work all over again.  Did that for 4 years plus working 1 day a week at the livestock barn in town and had 2 little girls to chase after, I'm not complaining one bit I'll do it over again in a heartbeat but man was I tired.  I don't know what the whole situation is with your son but I do know how my dad felt, I'm sure it wasn't much different, you know better than any of us just put yourself in his shoes.

mrcaptainbob

It sounds like the Business is YOUR business. Your son may feel it's okay to work the 'day' job, but his after-hours time is is own. And he would be right on that point. You may like his adding to his financial coffers by providing him a means of extra bucks by involving his 'off' time, but he may not see it that way. It sounds like his effort has paid off, as he's (by your words) built his own house and settled in, within five years of High school. Not a bad feat. Especially in these times. He may be motivated, just not as much as you are, and may not even be in the same direction as yours. His toeing the line during the day job is certainly expected. It should be for him as for any other employee. But his after hours effort is on his shoulders. Instead of paying this person (Son) for milled wood, purchase milled wood from another source. Maybe start off just to 'supplement' what was not provided. Then bump it up for what your business needs. After all, it's not mandatory to intrude on his after hours time. He does have his own life. Dealing with kids is rough. My two sons from the first, and two step-daughters from the second presented many, many challenges. The eldest 'boy' is 42. A lot of learning on my part to understand their need of controlling their own lives. And that's it's not a wrong way...just different. Your son does not sound lazy. He's 23 and may still be in that groggy state of growing and maturing. But it does sound like you've done good with and by him for him to have accelerated to having his own place at this young age. Kudo's to you and kudo's to your son.

Kansas

A few touched on this, and I don't if its applicable in this case, but wives/girlfriends can definitely play a part.
We had a young man come in and apply for a job. He had been welding on the night shift at a manufacturing plant. His wife told him that either the night job or her was going. I figured that was just an excuse, after all who gives up a good job in this economy, one that pays better than we can. I happen to know the plant manager, so I called him. He said "yes, he is a good worker". He went on to tell me that it happens a lot. Wife works days, husband works nights, soon wife or girlfriend can't take it anymore. Same thing with working a lot of overtime. We did wind up with an excellent worker.

customsawyer

I can't say much that has not been said but I will share that I was in your shoes at one time. You are in a very tough situation in that you feel like it don't matter what you do you are going to be wrong. When I sit and talk with my son now it is interesting the way we remember the same event totally different. Sit and talk with him but be prepared to just listen.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Thank You Sponsors!