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Building inspectors and "homemade" lumber

Started by Paschale, December 23, 2010, 11:53:21 PM

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Paschale

So I've got a kitchen addition I'm thinking about doing in the summer, and thinking about ways to save some money. I have a massive spruce that needs to be sawed up into lumber, and I've begun thinking about using that for the framing.  Has anyone gotten grief from building inspectors by using what they might view as "homemade" lumber? 
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

Ianab

Seems it can be an issue, depending on where you live.

Best option would be to call your local inspector and ask. Maybe "No Way". Maybe "OK if you do blah blah and oversize the joists" or maybe "No worries"

Depends on the local bylaws, but best way is to get your local inspector on side to start with, instead of fighting about it 1/2 way through the build.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Don't ask, don't tell. Just kidding there. We used home grown spruce milled at a circular and not graded for a 70 x 50 foot shed using engineered plans and we had no troubles. But, that's here not over in your neck of the woods.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Magicman

Also, it depends upon what is specified on your architectural drawings if you have any.  If #2 is specified, then that is what is required.

Builders using my lumber specify "#2 and or rough sawn lumber".  Then when the inspector, insurer, and lender sees that the building meets the specifications all is OK.

With no drawings, you still have to work with the inspector, insurer, and lender if applicable.

The last thing that you want to happen is for someone to reject a partially or fully completed building or addition.

I've lost count of the homes and additions that have been done with my lumber.  No one has ever had a problem.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

shinnlinger

Agree with what has been said here, inquire FIRST, but don't settle for "No" if that is the first "off the cuff" answer you get either.  Actually look at the regulations FOR YOURSELF and you may just find the loophole you are looking for (but be nice about it when you find it).  Might be worth finding a local miller and see what his experience has been.  Magic found a nice loophole.

My experience has been if an engineer or architect has signed off on it, the inspector will go with it, you just have to find that person to sign off on it for a reasonable rate to make it worth your while.  I found a "6 pack guy" out in ORegon with a little asking around that worked well for me.

I have also heard of arrangements where the inspector acts as the grader also.  If your lumber is pretty clear and solid it is obviously better than the knotty, waney graded crap at Home CHeapo and an appeal to common sense "buy local" sensibilities can help here. 

Good luck!

Dave
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Chris Burchfield

Contact Michigan Bureau of Construction Codes, (517) 241-9317 first.  Construction Code Enforcement Offices contain the type people that are not always nice.  Build it now and ask for permission later may work with the wife but not these kind of folks.  On line it looks like Michigan as a whole is going by the 2006 Michigan Building Code as their current code.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

Paschale

Thanks for all the great suggestions everyone.  I like the idea of getting an architect on board, signing off on things, and I'll dig deeper into the construction codes, and even do some "anonymous" calling, including blocking caller ID.   ;)

Dan
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

WDH

Better check with the Building Inspector.  In my County, all construction framing lumber must have an approved grade stamp on each board, absolutely no exceptions.  People here who saw their own lumber have to hire an independent Southern Pine Bureau Inspector to come and grade and stamp every board.  Otherwise, they will make you tear it down :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

Just as a side note, I was on the job site several times during the building of the last home with my lumber.  I watched the carpenters turning boards to try to determine which side was crowned.  They stated many times that it was some of the best and truest lumber that they had ever used.

But as stated, true and non-knotty lumber does not meet grade.  Inquire and be sure before you act.  Building inspectors, Insurers, and Lending Institutions get the final word.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Just Me

 If you were doing it in Cheboygan county, you would need to have it graded. Used to be that you could just go oversize a bit but lately the building depts require grading. Not all graders charge the same so check around.

I have an opinion about all of this but as a licenced builder I should just keep my mouth shut....... ::)

Brad_bb

If you do saw that spruce, will you let it air dry before use, or is it air drying now?  If you use it green, won't you have powder post beetles going to work inside your walls, not to mention shrinkage?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Dave Shepard

Many states have Native Lumber Laws. In Mass., we can get a native lumber stamp. Any lumber with this stamp is considered No.2, regardless if the lumber is of a higher grade. I had a discussion with our architect on Thursday about this. We are having two complete timber floor systems designed for out two Dutch barn projects. He said to stick with white pine, which is historically accurate, we may have to step up to Select Structural, which means we need an inspector to come in and grade for us, and also to provide a certificate, instead of stamping, as the timbers will be hand hewn after inspection. Here, the inspector will have to be from NELMA, I believe.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bandmill Bandit

Every thing that has been contributed here is good common sense that most of us have probably learned here on the forum and from just working in the lumber production industry, but one thing has not been suggested unless I missed it.

In much of Canada (at least out west) you can take a provincially administrated course and then write the exams to get your lumber grader/scaler certification. Once you have that you can stamp your own self milled lumber and do the same for other local sawyers. Any standardized building plans and municipal codes can then be applied to your lumber as it is now graded lumber.

The certification here in Alberta is administered by the Alberta Forestry Products Association. AFPA

I am studying to write my exams in the spring. The course covers a lot of stuff I have learned just from sawing with an experienced sawyer and mostly is expanding on that knowledge. I don't think the exams will be a tough write for a person with actual hands on experience and the knowledge that is provided in the course material. They even have a few sample exams with the course material and you get to work with one of the provincial foresters till you feel you are ready to write your exam. so far every thing is just plain common sense thing that I have already learned from helping with harvesting on private wood lots and from turning that timber into the best quality lumber that the harvested timber will give.  Seems that reputable Lumber Grader scaler is always in demand in these parts.    
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

beenthere

Bandmill Bandit

Interesting what you wrote.

Seems though, you are mixing log/tree grading in with timber/lumber grading. I'm a bit confused if that is what you mean with this exam (mentioned working with a provincial forester). Are you getting certified for log grading and for lumber grading in one exam?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

I agree beenthere. There seems to be a little alphabet soup here in his statement. I think he knows full well that a lumber grader's certification and a scaler's license are two different animals. And yes a small time mill owner, non-corporate citizen, can get both but it's not in one exam. But on the point of the lumber grading, you can get your own stamp by taking the course from the regional lumber grading authority. This stamp is tied to your mill, where it sits on your site. The MLB (our regional authority) will not allow you to operate the mill on a portable/mobile basis unless you call and inform them where you are setting up the mill, when and how long you will be milling there. It ain't like I got my stamps and now I can go and do as I wish.  The stamps are the property of the "mill" and you are the licensed grader who can stamp in that mill's yard unless MLB is notified in advance of your movement. You also need a stamp for every dimension and if kilned or green. And if they are as tight about grading as here, you can expect 3 or more visits from your regional authority. Those stamps had better be kept in a secure location to, not just laying around in the mill shed after work and not locked up. You can also grade for other mills using "their" mill's stamps. You will also get a visit, probably two, from the CLGA whom certify all the associations in Canada.

Atlantic Forestry Review, January 2010 issue, has an article on this very process one gentlemen went through to get his grader's license and stamps.

Now about the scaler's license, you need lots of practical experience at this before they even let you take the course and certify you. Most folks in this province that do get it have taken the ranger school forestry associates degree. There is no forester involved unless the instructor happens to be one by chance. Don't confuse forest technician with forester, often a forester does take on a technician role, but it don't work the other way around. Not in this province. Otherwise, why the heck take the full blown degree if there is no distinction?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bandmill Bandit

Based on the course work and the sample exams I am expecting to have to write 2 exams. I end up with 2 Certificates. What I don't understand is why I get told one thing from the Gov and another from the woodlot owners association.  I have been told that you don't have to write them both but the AFPA "very strongly" recommends that you write both. I have also been told that you have to do at least 2 years working with a scaler before you can get your scaling cert. I started out to get my grading cert and that is what I want. Scaling would be nice but I am relatively certain that i will have to do the time with a licensed scaler and to 2 x 8 week stints at either one of the Alberta institutions before i can write that second exam . I was not intending to get a scaling cert but I think there is a bit of a battle going on between industry/Gov and the private owners in this province.

The gov says it will work a lot better when as a custom, portable sawyer,  working on private land that you have both certifications. And yes, you have to get  a forester involved every time you move your mill to a private site that is not your own. This is still evolving in this province as the AFPA  works with the private woodlot owners association to get some semblance of order into the private side of the timber supply in this province. i dont know all the issues but I am learning. the more I learn the more I think the Gov ultimately wants to control the private timber too. I understand a bit of why it is in the mess its in and i beginning to think that it may be more hassle than it is worth to get the scalers cert. I know when I pressed Glen he told me that i didn't really have to do both but that there are not enough scalers in the province that are willing to work with private owners because they are spread out and the lots are small relatively speaking. He also did comment that the mills are fighting it too. So I am not sure what is going on here on the scaling side of things but I do know that I want to write my exams in march for the grading cert at least.

I do know a bit of what is causing the battle.   

I looked at a 1/4 of private ag land in Oct. There was a guy in it already doing the logging (and makin one hell of a mess too) timber types were aspen, white & black poplar, birch, spruce, tamarack and some yellow pine. I would say total would have been about 40 to 50 loads of the poplars  (Plup wood) combined, 10+ loads of birch(fire wood), and about 20+ loads of the spruce, pine and tamarack. Since I don't have my certs yet I just gave the guy my opinion and the phone # of my tutor/ Forester, Glen.

I got a call about a week later from Glen and he thanked me for turning the farmer his way and told me that the reason they want both certs was exactly for the situation I uncovered. The farmer was told that he would clear about 8 and 10 thousand for the entire 1/4 which I thought was way off the mark.

I don't know how it resolved but I also got a call from the farmer about a week ago asking if I would come back and give him a and idea of what he has for finished lumber possibility in the spruce and pine logs he has on his yard now. he said he has about 8 loads of spruce pine and a little over 2 loads of tamarack.

Personal opinion is that he private timber in this province has never been a real factor in the industry and the average farmer just wants the timber gone so he can break the quarter and get crop production going. I think maybe the Mountain Pine Beetle has the industry and the Gov looking at the private timber a bit differently now and the farmers have realized the value of the resource they have. IMHO

I just got my course material a week ago and if the cert process turns out to be more hassle then its worth I will just pass on it.
     
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Peter Drouin

Can't you just hire a bandmiller with a grading license so he can grade the lumber as it comes off the mill and either stamp it or give you a certificate. Should be only a few pennies more then the regular sawing price. That's what we do in NH.  8) 8) 8)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

SwampDonkey

You have to be a licensed scaler here if you have a crown allocation or contract with the marketing boards for private wood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bandmill Bandit

I have been out cruising a couple of times wit ha local logger/friend but i am really not interested in that part of it. I just want to buy logs and saw them and grade the lumber. from the 3 cruise trips i participated in it would seem to me you should have at least a 4 year apprentice ship type program that would include the scaling cert but that is just my view from limited experience in the actual wood lot.

Course material and exams was just over 500. I think i have to pay another fee when i actually write the official exam.  
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

SwampDonkey

Yeah, I thought about my statement and recanted that part. Not all loggers are cruisers, it's usually just a walk through with any logger I was with until I explained how it was done and put them to work wrapping d-tape. :D That being said, they get a feel for the run of wood in their area by eye balling the density and tree size. After all a good many have been successful doing this. And when you cruise you see trends as well given similar site conditions. Only the ones that need to borrow money hire a cruise, the banks like paperwork. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Peter Drouin

Alot of junk to do just to make a 2x4 that is sad. Best of luck. I hope things work out. ::) ::)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Ianab

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 26, 2010, 10:43:55 PM
Alot of junk to do just to make a 2x4 that is sad. Best of luck. I hope things work out. ::) ::)

This is true, graded lumber only has to make a minimum strength test, usually though a machine grader. I suspect if it gets though without breaking in 1/2, it passes and gets stamped. When we are sawing we would chuck a lot of those suspect looking boards aside, cut them into stickers, or shorts, or the firewood pile.

Was talking to a local guy, who had sawn out and built his own house from his own trees. The local inspector was fine with it, but sorta laughed at the guy using top quality clear Macrocarpa cypress, worth maybe $1500 cube / m when he could have sold that and bought construction graded radiata pine for $500. It didn't matter to the builder, he knew the house was well built, and the inspector agreed, so all was good.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

I think the whole process may have put some out of business, especially the hobby guys. Same thing happened with farming, needed a quota and testing if you want to milk and sell milk products. The little 8-20 milk cow herds are all gone. Same thing with the potato processing and the shipping end of it. It wasn't all government that done it, it was a group of larger producers collaborating and lobbying to push the little guy out by making the process cost enough to make the guy step back and wonder if it's all worth it. Can't blame government for everything. You go down to the provincial forestry centre and the yard has more Irving trucks sitting there than DNR on any given work day. Two plus two equals what can I get that no one else can. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

northwoods1

Quote from: Paschale on December 23, 2010, 11:53:21 PM
So I've got a kitchen addition I'm thinking about doing in the summer, and thinking about ways to save some money. I have a massive spruce that needs to be sawed up into lumber, and I've begun thinking about using that for the framing.  Has anyone gotten grief from building inspectors by using what they might view as "homemade" lumber? 

I am planning on doing some building on some land that is in a different township from where I live, one in which I was not familiar with that particular building inspector. I had heard some stories about individuals that had wanted to use lumber they had sawed and the building inspector would not allow it. Since I have my own sawmill I was concerned. So I called the inspector myself. Found out he was a very friendly and knowledgeable guy, and he answered every question I asked. He told me he had no problems with the use of home sawn lumber as long as it was good lumber, in other words it didn't have to be graded, but it had to be something that would make grade if it had been. He also said anyone with a sawmill that had access to the right kind of wood could obviously saw lumber that was better than what was available from the lumber yards. Here in WI the inspector has the final say about the use of the lumber. It does not have to be graded, it is solely the inspectors decision.

Ironwood

Just wanted to ride along on the discussion.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

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