iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Nice Sticks

Started by Ken, December 12, 2010, 08:36:35 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ken

I had over 9000 bd ft on the last load with 2/3 of it being the top grade at $400/   The only mill that I am aware of in NB that uses the Bangor rule is Twin Rivers in Plaster Rock.  It is not uncommon for us to get 8500-9000 bd ft on two bunks there if we send good (8"+) logs. 

The old 230 shown in the photo has been around for quite some time.  I am not sure if there is another piece of equipment in anyones fleet that is as tough as the old "jacks".  They are very easy to work on and just keep chugging along. 

Cheers
Ken
Lots of toys for working in the bush

northwoods1

Quote from: Ken on December 21, 2010, 05:21:24 AM
I had over 9000 bd ft on the last load with 2/3 of it being the top grade at $400/   The only mill that I am aware of in NB that uses the Bangor rule is Twin Rivers in Plaster Rock.  It is not uncommon for us to get 8500-9000 bd ft on two bunks there if we send good (8"+) logs. 

The old 230 shown in the photo has been around for quite some time.  I am not sure if there is another piece of equipment in anyones fleet that is as tough as the old "jacks".  They are very easy to work on and just keep chugging along. 

Cheers
Ken

That is interesting your getting so many b.f. on your loads. That is way more than what a typical load here would scale out at. That is why I asked how much your loads ##? The difference between the scales used wouldn't seem to account for the differences in load volume, maybe the guy scaling your loads in just a really nice guy :D
Below is a pic off a job I cut. The run of wood was bigger than what you are cutting there, but you can get an idea of what I am talking about. It would be unusual to have a load over 6000" here and most are closer to 5000'. Same type of double bunk arrangement your using. 80-90,000# depending on time of year. Typical load of pulp is 12-13 cords. I would love to have a load like what you showed scale out that high, man a guy could make good money sawing in the woods that way :)








SwampDonkey

At our marketing board we used one trucker delivering veneer to Columbia Forest Products in PI, Maine on Bangor Rule. Using a straight triaxle with a pup and self loader would scale fairly consistently to around 8000 bf. Our regular loads of hardwood pulp averaged 38 metric tonnes per load (that's a 10 % heavier ton). Some fellows pushed that to 48 metric tonnes. You get to become real familiar with this when you handle scale slips for hundreds of loads submitted by truckers from the mill scale houses. We now have our own scales at our yard now. ;D I say our, because all of us woodlot owners bought and paid for and thus own the assets. We (from the farm) paid levy on about 12000 cord over the years so I'd say we, us, ours. ;) :D

I would say it's quite obvious and clear it's the scale used on them loads that yields more bf. ;D I can tell you right now that Irving is no logger's buddy on scaling. Probably the most hard nosed you can come up against. :D

Maybe the scaler is like Dave mentioned about his recent purchase agreement, scaling the but ends. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

Usually a 5000' load over here is around #100,000, but that's red pine, the little bit of white pine I have hauled was way lighter than red pine.
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

One pine mill here uses decimal c Ithink, is that Scribner? The other uses International.
Too many irons in the fire

northwoods1

Quote from: barbender on December 21, 2010, 09:09:05 AM
Usually a 5000' load over here is around #100,000, but that's red pine, the little bit of white pine I have hauled was way lighter than red pine.

Right, that is why I can't understand the discrepancy between the scales used, I mean Ken is talking about 9000' loads and a typical load here is about 5500' how is it quite obvious like swampdonkey says it is all in the scale? That doesn't sound right ??? according to the scale example he gave it doesn't seem to be that much of a difference.

northwoods1

Quote from: barbender on December 21, 2010, 09:12:31 AM
One pine mill here uses decimal c Ithink, is that Scribner? The other uses International.

Scribner and Scribner Decimal c are a little different, with decimal c it just rounds off the board feet to the nearest 10 board feet. Scribner is what is used around these parts.

SwampDonkey

I guess when I say it's hardwood weight I'm giving, everyone is still thinking white pine weight?  ::) ::) My mistake I guess. But we never moved any white pine in my area to amount to anything as I said in one of my first posts. Maybe someone is confusing a stick scale with a weight scale. I dunno. If your not convinced it's all in the scaling, and your saying your trailers are like ours for load capacity and we get twice the stick scale for the same load than I can't say much more. Maybe the world is really flat, I dunno. ;)

Scribner as pointed out yields quite a difference in scale. I don't care what name you want to call the scale rule, I'm paid on the board footage. ;) What are you getting for the better white pine?. Most I've heard from south of here is around $250-350. If your getting $600 or $700, which I doubt, then your not doing so bad. But it doesn't seem so to me. I can bet the difference in scale per log size is not constant. Doyle is a lot harder on scale with logs under 14" for instance, so the difference in scale is not a straight line on a graph of constant slope, more of parabolic curve. Use Excel and calculate the scale for each of the rules and graph the differences using International as a base line.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

lumberjack48

Don't laugh guys, old school break down, if hes 8 feet high, 7 feet wide, and all 16 footers, 7 cords each bunk. We have a 14 cord load, 2.5 cords per thro. turns it in to a 5600 food load.
I logged and trucked 30 yrs, never had a 8000 foot load, 4500 to 5500

I wouldn't ask any questions, I'd keep on truck' en . 8)

That's really nice timber, look's like some fun logging

I got so sick and tired of the short stick i started hauling all my pine tree length up to Page & Hill, Big Falls. MN., pretty hard to steal it that way.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ken on December 21, 2010, 05:21:24 AM
The only mill that I am aware of in NB that uses the Bangor rule is Twin Rivers in Plaster Rock.  It is not uncommon for us to get 8500-9000 bd ft on two bunks there if we send good (8"+) logs.

Yes, because they have US sawmills as well.

We are more fortunate than others here in some ways. We have a short haul to the US at 3 crossings within 5-10 miles of the largest towns in our area and decent truck roads. Competition for Irving, and why we don't sell much to them. Most times they are the poorest price anyway.

Who does the check scaling at your mills down in the US? I think someone laughed at me the last time I asked. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ken

Northwoods,

Unfortunately the Irving Pine mill does not weigh the trucks when they arrive so I don't know the exact weight but my guess is close to 110 000 - 115 000  lbs loaded.   I agree that there seems to be a large discrepancy between scaling methods.  We find that the Bangor rule used by Twin Rivers (formerly Frasers) gives us an additional 10-15%.  I have seen loads with 3 bunks scale out over 13 000 bdft using that method of scaling.  Those truckers were very happy not to meet the highway authorities with the portable scales during those trips. 

The really sad thing is with much of todays curve sawing technology and high efficiency sawmills we as contractors are not getting paid for the amount of board feet that is actually being produced/ton delivered. 

Cheers
Lots of toys for working in the bush

SwampDonkey

I don't know what the answer is, but some of it may be the result of buying timber tracts on a cruised scale before it's bucked and rolled to inspect the grade, including the inside. If it were done that way up here, the odds would not be in your favour if you think every smooth maple and birch is a nice sawlog or veneer log. Non-the-less we know what direct contracts with individuals did for price. It sucked, thus we organized into marketing boards.  8)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: northwoods1 on December 20, 2010, 06:21:01 AM
That is some nice wood your cutting there, and 8000' loads? That is a lot of wood :o I don't think I have ever had a load that big in my entire life :D how much does a load like that weigh#?

Come to Michigan much??? Scale loads every day with 8000+ feet on them. (scaled in scribner decimal C)

SwampDonkey

Quote from: lumberjack48 on December 21, 2010, 03:30:59 PM
Don't laugh guys, old school break down, if hes 8 feet high, 7 feet wide, and all 16 footers, 7 cords each bunk. We have a 14 cord load, 2.5 cords per thro. turns it in to a 5600 food load.

I can say one thing, the loads are taller than 8 feet from bed to top of the posts and wider than 7 feet.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

I don't know if we are confusing issues here or not, I am a little dense ::) But, the point I was trying to make and I think Northwoods is too, is that if I put what will scale out as 5500' of Red Pine logs on a truck I'm going to be overweight. With a three axle trailer we can run approx. 94,000# in the summer and 102,500 in the winter if I remember right (I haven't hauled since last winter, I forget quick ::)) There is no way we can get 8000' on and be even close to legal weight any time of the year, with the scale you get at the local mills. I just brought 2 loads of red pine logs home because it was smaller wood, mostly 10" tops 10-18' lengths, and when I tallied up what I had using the Scribner C scale, I figured that I would have been way ahead cutting the stuff into 100" bolts and sending them to the potlatch stud mill. They weigh scale, and a roughly #100,000 load converts to 11 1/2 cords or so at $89 cord. $1000 give or take. I figured scribner would only get me about 2500', at $205 per mbf. $500 or so, unless I am figuring wrong. I don't think I am as one of this mills main suppliers is only sending them wood that is too big to make Potlatch's 17"max size. The lumber scales beat you up bad on anything under 14".
Too many irons in the fire

northwoods1

Quote from: barbender on December 23, 2010, 12:06:35 AM
I don't know if we are confusing issues here or not, I am a little dense ::) But, the point I was trying to make and I think Northwoods is too, is that if I put what will scale out as 5500' of Red Pine logs on a truck I'm going to be overweight. With a three axle trailer we can run approx. 94,000# in the summer and 102,500 in the winter if I remember right (I haven't hauled since last winter, I forget quick ::)) There is no way we can get 8000' on and be even close to legal weight any time of the year, with the scale you get at the local mills. I just brought 2 loads of red pine logs home because it was smaller wood, mostly 10" tops 10-18' lengths, and when I tallied up what I had using the Scribner C scale, I figured that I would have been way ahead cutting the stuff into 100" bolts and sending them to the potlatch stud mill. They weigh scale, and a roughly #100,000 load converts to 11 1/2 cords or so at $89 cord. $1000 give or take. I figured scribner would only get me about 2500', at $205 per mbf. $500 or so, unless I am figuring wrong. I don't think I am as one of this mills main suppliers is only sending them wood that is too big to make Potlatch's 17"max size. The lumber scales beat you up bad on anything under 14".

I have to say I am really envious of Ken out there :) I mean, a guy could make really great money with just a skidder and a chainsaw cutting loads like he pictured that scale out as they do, and the $400 per thousand... That is the kind of money a person should be making for doing that kind of work :) :)
Thanks for posting the pictures Ken. You have such a nice neat landing, nice wood, and your getting good money for it.
Barbender I think your figures are absoultey correct as are lumberjack 48s , over here it makes more sense to cut wood like that 8' long and sell it by the cord. That is what we have always been forced to do here there just is not a good market for pine logs. You would be lucky to get $200mbf here for that wood Ken is cutting and those loads  would scale out at a lot less wood. Like lumberjack48 and others have pointed out, the short stick scalers at the log mills are another factor. Here that is the norm rather than the exception, at least it you cut the stuff short and sell it by the cord you can eliminate that factor.
And like Ken said even if a person gets a fair scale you are not getting paid for the amount of bf being produced and delivered, not by a long shot! I always was aware of that, but never so much as after I got my own sawmill. I know for a fact I can saw 50% more wood out of some logs than what the log scale would indicate.
Lumberjack 48 , that is such a great pic of you with that new skidder in 1968 I bet you were the 1st in your neighborhood to have one of those! :D

SwampDonkey

The price is actually down on pine, not too long ago we were getting close to $600/mbf on the top grade.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

northwoods1

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 23, 2010, 05:55:54 AM
The price is actually down on pine, not too long ago we were getting close to $600/mbf on the top grade.


The price seems to be down on pretty much everything here :D

Here where I live, this is pine country too. When it comes to nice w.& r. pine logs , we have lot of it here and of the highest quality.

SwampDonkey

That's the trouble, it ain't scarce enough. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ga jones

25 cents a foot around here for white pine 20 for hemlock.5800 bf on trailer puts you at 81000 plus pounds a little over weight...Its almost not worth my time.............
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

lumberjack48

Thank you Northwoods1, It was the second one, it was all new to the older loggers, they just couldn't get tracks out of there mind. I peeled pulp for a guy up at International Fall's one summer,[1966] he had a TJ , he took the time and showed me how to fell timber for it and work the landing, tricks to get wood out. I was used to cutting everything up in the woods and hand piling. [ strip cutting ]

Your right, everything under 14" should  be cut  100", it takes the hurt away a little bit.
I was logging Co. wood, and the Co. truck hauled the logs and bolts for me [ their rule ] the driver told me the scalier,  didn't even scale the small top logs, 10" to 8" top, i got the hint, the last logs always ended up 100" for some reason.
Than he told me on the bolts, the Co short stick every load about a cord, so he hauled my wood at night, [ scale shack closed ] the trucker scales the load, a gain of 1 to 2 cords a load. [ facts ]

Ken, I want to say you do real nice work!!!  my landings had to be neat and clean to.
Guys be care full and always take that extra step
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Ken

(I have to say I am really envious of Ken out there  I mean, a guy could make really great money with just a skidder and a chainsaw cutting loads like he pictured that scale out as they do, and the $400 per thousand... That is the kind of money a person should be making for doing that kind of work )

As I mentioned very early on in this thread we don't often get the opportunity to cut timber like the pine shown in the pictures.  It does seem very odd that others who live in areas dominated by pine do not get a better price than $250/mfbm considering that our finished product ends up in many of the same retail outlets.   As SD mentioned when the American economy was in better shape we were getting considerably more for our SPF building materials. 

Thanks for mentioning the clean looking landing.  Our landing is in a gravel pit which makes it much easier considering the fact that we have had 6-8" of rain this month.  Anybody who has worked with a skidder knows that it is very hard to keep a landing looking neat especially if you rely on someone else to truck your wood.   We do however pride ourselves on doing quality work and that attitude has kept us in work when many others have had to pack it in due to the industry being in the dumper.   I am an optimist though and am patiently waiting for our American friends south of the border to begin building houses again so that our industry can recover. 

Hope everyone had a great Christmas season
Cheers
Ken
Lots of toys for working in the bush

barbender

It is sad how little pine pays over here- I think it was only $305 mbf when things were good 5-6 years ago. I'll make a note, I've never even sold pine logs to these mills, all I've done is talked to them for prices. But it is a straight $205mbf right now, there is no #1 or #2 grade, only deducts for poor grade knots and what, that's the impression they gave me anyhow. With our extensive pine forests, there are only 2 mills in northern MN that buy it on a reliable commercial basis that I know of, other than the Potlatch lumber mill. Part of the problem is that the Chippewa National Forest really slumped in the amount of wood they were selling for quite awhile, and they have the majority of the large pine in my area. I don't think the mills have had a reliable supply. From what I hear, the Chippewa is putting up more wood these days, but I don't think that they have sales that are accessible to a hobby logger like me. I can't buy these 3000 cord monstrosities they put together. They have sales that are stretched through the woods for 5 miles bunched into one because there admin. costs are so high, I guess. It would take me and the Pettibone 20 years to cut all of that ::) Back to the point though, it is a shame that all of our beautiful pine sells for really not much more than Aspen pulp. According to my handy Woodmizer log rule and lumber scale it would take about 45, 14"top x 16' long logs to make a 5000' load, which would pay you $1050.(Scribner decimal c) Once you get to 18" tops, things look better, than it only takes about 24 to make 5000'. I don't know what aspen is paying right now, but I would think it is in the area of $80-85 per cord. So a 10 cord load of aspen would pay $800 or so. It don't seem right that junky ol' aspen culverts should be worth nearly as much as majestic big pine, this is buggin me somethin fierce :)
Too many irons in the fire

lumberjack48

The Chippewa National Forest is my home ground, logged the area for 36 yrs. My farther and me  bid on these big sales until the big boys started biding the stumpage up. They bid it up higher then we got at the mill for it, how in the heck can you stay in business. I saw pine bids up to $300. + a thro, Aspen $50. a cord on the stump, and the same for hardwood , it was crazy. There had to be something going on under the table, my thoughts.

I had to go to work for Rajala Timber, one pine block i was on cost them $80,000.00 just to open it, this is 25 yrs ago.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

SwampDonkey

Just 5 years ago before the big bust, some loggers paid as much as $2000/acre based on pulp specs. That included about any kind of tree on the lot. I've seen many lots around 50-60 acres go for $80,000-100,000 stumpage. You couldn't afford to buy a lot and manage it selectively, anybody buying cut the whole works. Loggers would pay more for the stumpage than you could offer for the land purchase, flatten it and move on. Some would get a cruise, most just walked the lot to see what kind of wood they had. Any softwood logs they could get was bonus, but some mills paid as much as $120/cord for aspen and hardwood pulp. Mature timber runs from 24-36 cord per acre on woodlots, mature cedar runs over 60 cord/acre.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thank You Sponsors!