standing dead trees

[adk dan]

We own 52 acres of mostly white pine. My question is, if a tree is standing dead well over a year, with no bark, is it dry enough to burn efficiently? We literally have dozens of these trees, which I feel is a valuable resource for heating.  I also want to use some to build an Adirondack lean-to.

[northwoods1]

Certain species will be good if there standing dead with the bark off, but white pine is not one of them the sapwood will begin deteriorating right off and the rest is not to far behind. Best thing for white pine is as soon as you see it is on the way out w/dying needles, take it down and process it. Even standing dead wood is not fully dried out it has to be split before it can fully season for burning, but being standing dead it will have less moisture than if it was green. Cut some up and try burning it see what happens. I think you'll find it would burn better if you split it and let it dry a bit.

[doctorb]

Interesting - Northwoods1:

I bought rounds this summer from 4 standing dead oak trees.  Bark mostly off by nature, and the rest removed prior to delivery.  I split and measured the MC on the smaller diameter stuff - say 6-8" - and found it acceptably dry - about 22-24%.  Larger rounds of 14-24'' measured higher 28-34%.  So, if I wanted to use standing dead timber for fuel immediately, it makes sense that the unsplit smaller diameter stuff will have seasoned  faster than larger diameter rounds.  Just common sense really, but the numbers confirm our beliefs.  I do not know how long these trees had been dead.  Doctorb

[Magicman]

doctorb, you said "standing dead oak trees".  I suspect very different from the white pine that northwoods1 was referring to.

Customsawyer just detailed splitting and sawing a large oak.  Very solid lumber inside even though the sapwood had rotted off.  I have sawed oak logs that looked ridiculously rotten that had very solid lumber inside.



Rotten log

[doctorb]

Magicman-

How long does it take for an oak to rot after it falls and lies on the forest floor?  (probably temperature and moisture related, I would think)  I have taken some of these downed trees for firewood and have been impressed that there's often a lot of good wood inside.  This past year I cut up some black locust trees that have been down for as long as I've owned my house (11 years).  My neighbor was laughing at me.  He stopped laughing when he saw what the inside of those rounds looked like!  I am burning some of that wood today, as I type this!  Doctorb

[Magicman]

doctorb, our Cherrybark Red Oak and White Oak is the longest lasting that we have.  It will last longer standing or if the limbs or root ball keeps the log off of the ground.  That Red Oak log on my mill had laid on the ground for 5 years. (Since hurricane Katrina)

I don't think that Black Locust will ever rot.

[breederman]

It will be a full time job feeding the fire if you are trying to keep warm with white pine in Boonville! ;) white pine will need to be split and dried for a bit before it will burn good.,even if standing dead.but it will dry out pretty quick after you split it.

[WDH]

Most dead standing trees stay wet inside for a very long time.

[Banjo picker]

Dan I don't know anything about you, but anybody that has a little banjo man for his pic. is ok by me...Welcome and be careful cutting standing dead anything...I cut a bunch about two years ago that had been killed by overspray on adjointing land...they won't cut like a live tree....ex. lean may be slightly one way but the tree may go the other ..I think it is from sunshine drying one side of the tree more than the other , making it heavier on the dark side....just a guess...Tim

[Bandmill Bandit]

Standing dead white pine will be a lot more than 1 year dead if the bark is off from wind rain sleet and snow. There is a fine line between punky sap wood and good fuel wood when it comes to most of the pine species and the difference is about one summer. When the tree is dry enough standing, to allow the local ant and termites to begin setting up house keeping your about a summer to late on cutting it down from my experience. I have found that the best time to take em is when you see the ants starting to make saw dust at the base before the bark is off coming off. If you see the bark coming off in big chunks after a good rain, thats a pretty good indication that the ants have pretty much done the easy part of the work of loosening the bark. That is the point at which you still get some decent wood. The fall before that happens is even better. Take em in may/ june ish in this country, split and pile em you will get a pretty good heat supply for the winter. I have even milled a few and got some pretty decent fencing lumber out of them. mind you the fence was a decorative garden fence designed for squirrels to fight on.
    

[cheyenne]

.......Will it burn efficiently......... In a word......NO.......I will assume you have a wood stove....If it is an air tight the pine will just lay in there and smolder with very little burn & very little heat....If it has a damper in the pipe you'll have to crack it open to get a good burn but you still won't get a lot of heat.......I burn Pine & hemlock all the time & unless it's been split & stacked to dry for at least 3 months it won't burn worth a Dang....The other thing is you won't get a good bed of coals from softwood & you have to feed it like crazy but if it's dry it will cook you out of the house....I burn fresh cut dead standing in the early fall & spring just to take the chill off & it's nice & comfy......When the cold hits I go to the dry stuff & the good hardwoods......To much moisture in the wood is what fills the chimney with creosote.......Cheyenne

[thecfarm]

As building material I would not and do not use white pine that is dead. But I have and do burn it for heat. I have a stove that has some sheet metal in it,Ashley.The pine burns hot and fast.Kinda warped the sheet metal,but it is still usable for heat.I have a OWB now and it does wonderful for heat in there.With the Ashley it takes alot to keep the house warm.But with the OWB it really not that much differant from good hardwood. cheyenne right,sounds like he's burned it before.With the pine that I burn,it's been dead for years,no bark and the first few inches is kinda punky,but born dry.So I have no problems burning it.Hope you have a wood splitter too.Nasty stuff to split by hand.Will follow a knot and hates to split straight. Could you mix it in with some good wood?

[cheyenne]

Another thing about burning fresh dead standing... :'(....Once it gets cold out the moisture in the wood freezes & just makes it worse ........Cheyenne

[Bandmill Bandit]

 only use dead standing pine for garden fence  and other rustic stuff for the yard at the demand of my wife. its the look more then any thing for her and I get to change it our when she get tired of it about every 2 or 3 years to do something different so it mostly ends up in the barbecue pit.

[woodmills1]

standing dead trees, no limbs no bark = instant burn now firewood

fallen dead trees need to be dried they suck up ground moisture


for years back in Jersey I cut and burned hand to mouth week after week on standing dead

standing dead with soft outerwood needs to get inside or under cover quick, as the soft punky outer will suck up rain quickly

[SwampDonkey]

Standing dead white pine will stand a very long time. I've seen fire killed pine standing with a whole new mature forest of spruce grown up around it.  That being said, I would have to agree that it will be a bit wet standing dead. It won't take white pine long to dry though with cut and split up, not like balsam fir, half of green fir weight is water. The sapwood won't be punky mush yet after a year I don't think. I've had to work around them when they fall in a thinning block and they seem pretty in tact. That being said it won't make good lumber if your looking for the bug free stainless appearance. But it'll be ample for a temporary lean to I can bet when you get into the heartwood.

[Austin 64]

What is a good, reasonably priced, moisture reader?

[Dean186]

What is a good, reasonably priced, moisture reader?

After reading Doctorb's Seasoning Firewood Post and all of his moisture readings, I purchased my first Digital Moisture Meter.  

I purchased a MMD4E Digital Moisture Meter by General Tools for $38.95 from Amazon.

It is easy to use, durable, the readings are repeatable and I believe them to be accurate enough for firewood.  It has been a fun educational tool and I am glad I have it.

[JJ]

I have burned several dead standing trees.
They are not dry, even without bark or limbs.  They need to be split to dry.  Maybe it is diffrent in your neck of the woods. 
I think they also soak up water once the bark is gone.  I have tried dead trees with no bark but covered with fungus, and wood had digested look to it, and very little wood grain.  These need more time to dry out.

           JJ

[bandmiller2]

Boonville Dan,I burn pine mostly to get rid of it.Pine chunks can be hard to split by hand,if you have to, cut your chunks and stand on end.Take your chainsaw and make some cuts from the edge in a ways gives you a place to set the wedges so they won't pop out.Pine won't carry the mail in real cold weather but spring and fall its OK. Frank C.

[stumper]

I just burnt some.  Top burns well, bottom 8 feet would benift from drying.  It does not hold a fire as well as hardwood and you do use a lot more.  I tend to leave the dead trees that are not endangeering anything until winter, then cut it and burn it.  I do not want to tie up shed space fore a low heat wood, but I also do not want it to go to waste.  So I winter cut it and burn it.  I will mix in good wood as needed to keep the fire going strong over the time I need it.

[Tom_Averwater]

I burn mostly dead standing wood in my furnace,Red Elm, Black locust  & soft maple .After reading this post I checked all 3 kinds of wood with my moisture meter and it was 14 - 15 % for all 3. The wood had been cut within the last month .

[petefrom bearswamp]

Burning white pine will keep you warm running back and forth from the wood pile to the stove with armloads.

[Al_Smith]

It might sound crazy to those who have never been around northern oak but I've cut lumber out of stuff that had been down for over twenty years .

Now the bark and sap wood were gone   .Inside of all that was some of the nicest oak you could ever imagine . It was a wind fall and live when it got wind tossed because  the limbs were still on it .A dead one usually tosses the limbs before it goes over .

On that subject I often hear people worry about milling a long down log .Yes there will be a lot of loss but you'd be surprised at the amount of good stuff left .The drops are just high priced firewood .It all burns if nothing else .

[Randy88]

Cut some and try it is my recommendation, I burn whatever comes along, the good the bad and the ugly, if its wood it'll eventually burn, one form or another.    We burn some pretty lousy stuff to keep the timber cleaned up and to get rid of the dead trees.     By the time I get around to burning it, some of its been cut so long it has started to rot even after its split.    If your into the fine tuning of just how many btu's there are in one type of wood in a certain stage vs another I can't help any there, the lesser quality takes more wood than good hardwoods but by how much I couldn't tell you.   As for the comment of getting heat out of carrying it to the furnace that I'd agree with totally, soft wood burns faster than you can throw it in the furnace but it still gives off heat and if its what you have available then burn it up, what other options are there for it, just let it fall over and rot down?   

I was never a big believer in cutting good trees so I had the nice split wood to burn, we always harvested the worst trees that never would make good lumber logs and cut those out to eliminate them and make room for better saw log trees to grow and flourish but that's just me so take it for what its worth.

[SwampDonkey]

Cutting good firewood by no means is cutting the best log trees for firewood. Although, I have seen whole woodlots managed this way and many that were, were cut over a long time allowing beech to take over. That resulted in the next forest to be totally junk diseased beech and if not the beech then a small tree called the hop hornbeam was next in line. All the nice rock maple and yellow birch was high graded out of existence and the maple seedlings were choked out by beech regen.



Just like what my uncle is doing here, did the same thing to another woodlot. Only thinking of firewood, not future forest. Some people are set in their old ways.

[indiaxman1]

Am looking at a standing dead hickory on neighbor's property.  Top is knocked out, so the widow maker problem is gone...checked out top...still good stuff..Sometimes on dead stuff, debarking gets down to the non-rot wood.  I burn vast majority dead wood..white oak/hickory always yields heat.   Don't mess with soft woods if I can avoid...pine/poplar/soft maple not worth effort of cutting/hauling IMO

[Randy88]

Around here there's some flunkies that only saw lumber grade oak or maple and will only take the log portion to split for firewood and leave the rest of the tree to lay and rot.    I rented a farm years back that the owner allowed some of these idiots in after a tornado went through and the owner wanted someone to clean it up and get some good out of it.   I had no say in it what so ever and these morons came in and cut down even more good trees that were standing and had no damage from the tornado at all.   I came unglued and blew a gasket to find the last good trees left were sawed down and the bottom log cut out for firewood, and this was a month after the tornado hit, their reason for it was those are damaged trees and they didn't want them, not to mention they'd saw down about a dozen to find the one they wanted that was good enough for them for firewood, I about shot them on the spot.   I grew up sawing anything not wanted went for firewood, anywhere from tree tops after logs are harvested to dead stuff, down stuff, damaged trees and around here there are a lot of boxelders and those are junk trees in my opinion and we've sawed a lot of them up over the years.   

I look more towards wood lot management as a way to determine what gets cut for firewood, anything down and still dead standing and any unwanted species and then those that won't make good saw logs ever, they come down as well eventually and go into the furnace.   

I look more at the elimination of junk rather than the amount of btu's of heat out of the stuff, no different than tossing in odds and ends left from doing wood working projects and building projects, its more of way to utilize or recycle unwanted junk, no difference than throwing in household trash, I get some heat out of it while cleaning up around the farm, house or woodlot.

[Al_Smith]

pine/poplar/soft maple not worth effort of cutting/hauling IMO

Soft maple isn't that bad ---but don't lolly gag around with it .Split it pronto .If you don't and let it lay in the log or in rounds in about a year is spalts from the inside out and is about worthless for anything .Actually sugar maple will do about the same but makes better firewood than soft maple .

I could never figure out where the soft even came from because in all my years I've never seen it growing in the woods .

[SwampDonkey]

I can bet it was around because it grows like a darn weed and is very shade tolerant. So it can easily end up growing in and crowding the oaks. It will grow on a  rocky knob, river bottom, or cedar swamp, just about anywhere. There isn't an acre of ground around here that hasn't got a red maple on it unless it's a field. ;D On every thinning block I ever cut, I've had to cut red maple clumps, darn red maple clumps. :D

[Al_Smith]

I have an idea most of these soft maples or silver maples most likely were planted after the decline of tha American chesnut . Most in town removals are right at 100 years old .

As I said I could never figure out where they came from because the native species in these parts is sugar maple .In the country you won't even find them growing in fence rows with the rest of the trees .

[SwampDonkey]

Like it or not, your in the heart of red maple country. I have seen people confuse it for sugar a good many times in standing tree form. I had a woodlot owner one time bring me a cruise from a woodlot he had inventoried and recently bought. It was a crown block and a cruise was done by the license before the sale and he had an independent cruise it for purchase. So two cruises really. The two cruises were identical, he showed me them both. They were identical, but only in volumes. One guy called all the maple , red maple. The other guy tallied it as sugar maple. We had a good laugh and the owner said I guess that cruise isn't worth much to me. This was after he had bought it. So, I did a proper management plan on the place afterward and there was a mix of both, but it was mainly sugar maples as far as maple goes. But there was also a bunch of other species to. I later found out the two crusiers were in cahoots and it was a windshield cruise, both technicians that I wouldn't trust my farm to.  :D

[Al_Smith]

 :D Well a timber cruiser is about as welcomed on the farm around here as a horse thief .

That aside I know the difference between a sugar maple and a silver or red maple .That's a no brainer . There might be in Nebraska but there are flat zero none in this part of Ohio that I've ever seen except transplants or volunteers from existing .

Good grief one lone silver will blow enough twirleys to replant about 2 acres in any given season .They do especially well in the eave spouts of a house .

[WDH]

Silver maple are shallow rooted with large lateral roots actually exposed in a fertilized lawn situation.  That really makes them undesirable as a yard tree if you have to mow the grass.

BTW, I have cruised a bunch of timber, but I ain't never stole any horses.  I did not realize that I had talent for it  :D.

[SwampDonkey]

 :D :D :D Bush whackers, Horse Traders and Timber Pimps.......If I didn't know better, I'd think I was reading a script for a western with a one horse town in which the sheriff is the town drunk. :D

Well, not really but I was watching a MASH episode recently and I laughed out loud when I heard that line.

[Al_Smith]

Sugar maple will blow roots out atop the ground also  but not as bad as silver . I'm a tellin you a danged mower blade is tough to straighten out  once it gets bent .Big vice ,big pipe wrench, anvil and sledge hammer  time .

[clww]

I had one of those huge, shallow-rooted Silver Maples in the back yard of one of my houses. That is, until hurricane Isabel sent it over onto the house roof in 2003. It was a great shade tree and the squirrels and birds built nests in it every year. It measured 52" at the butt and produced at least 10 cords of firewood.

[SwampDonkey]

Never had either red or sugar maple put roots above ground. The only pain in the butt tree I have is a spruce, those roots go to the surface the worst of any tree I own. Also, aspen will but not as bad. Beech somewhat as well I've noticed. This is because those deciduous will root sucker and spruce is used to doing that because it will grow in wetter soils so roots are real close to the top of the soil.

[indiaxman1]

In my neck of woods, the most prolific trash tree is the sweet gum...if not attended to, they will sucker up....block trails, drive out other species...in prior posts there was discussion on chemical weapons....chainsaws and machetes are my weapons of choice to thin those babies out....can't split em....not much heat value....

[Banjo picker]

Maybe you should cut them into rectangles 7 1/4" x 9 1/4" by maybe 9' and just sell them to some tie buyer... ;)  Tim

[Al_Smith]

Much ado over firewood .Unless it's sappy pine as long as it's not like sponge and it will fit though the stove door it all burns .

Oh sure everybody in hardwood country would prefer oak,hickory or beech. The rest still produces heat .Swamp willow,tulip poplar and cotton wood produce just as much heat if figured by the pound weight .It just takes more by volume  is all .Lots more trips to the wood pile .

Then again think of the benefits of the exercise involved .

I mean if you think about it a person could burn the donkey of the swamps slash if you wanted to .Now that would involve a fair amount of elbow grease to say the least . :D

[SwampDonkey]

Well, I had one fella working for me one summer that was going to get a crew together to gather slash from PCT cuttings for a wood gas generator. He applied for government funding, but I think it all faded away with time. He has designed a wood gas vehicle I think like Paul did. But I never saw it running. He was quite the talker, and dreamer.  8)

[Al_Smith]

 I joke and clown around a lot but I was serious about baling up slash .

One of the guys on another site showed a vid clip of a round baler they use in Europe that bales up the same stuff you use that brush saw gizmo on .

I suppose depending on the location they burn it in a bio burner like those ground up almond orchards in California .Pop em out ,grind them up in a big tub grinder,plant new trees .

[SwampDonkey]

I think some fellas tried it awhile on Crown Lands, but the haul is to far in my opinion if you have to go 50 miles with it. They were taking the tops, the part that should be left behind for the soil. But supposedly only on the better soils. But I saw them taking it off that igneous sand where we work and that soil is about as poor as it gets.


You couldn't get a machine in between the trees where we work unless they were making trails. Just the gathering of it would do a lot of tree damage by mechanical means, with all the swinging and maneuvering. A great big no no. They must have been in semi-commercial or commercial thinnings.

[Al_Smith]

I think it's some kind of poplar trees which are basically fast growing weeds .Evidently they grow them on purpose in ground that isn't fit for much else to use for fuel .

Really it wouldn't be much different than growing corn or soy beans except the harvesting would be different .As far as corn they came up with the bright idea to make high tech moon shine out of it rather than use it to fatten cattle . That's working well ,gas is high and so is beef .That solved a lot .

[WDH]

There is a lot of research going on where dedicated energy crops are grown between the rows of plantations to gain an early biomass harvest.  The bio-balers are proven technology.  This is in the South where pine is the primary commercial timber crop.  Not sure how that would work with hardwood since it is not typically planted on cleared ground in rows.

[Al_Smith]

Hard woods are selectively  cut .The only clear cuts are the occasional shopping center or some such thing .Those get ground up in a big tub grinder and hauled for fuel to some place .

Some times if it's real good stuff it gets logged first .Seems a waste to me to grind it all for  fuel but it's not my call .

[SwampDonkey]

Nobody doing land clearing around here treats wood like a waste. There are revenues from that wood to be recovered to offset clearing costs. Most clearing is for fields, usually land around the cities has been cut long before it's cleared for lots. They aren't getting that much for the land that they can afford to dispose of it without getting something out of it. Farmland is about $2500/acre and you can often get $3000/acre for the wood (gross) as pulp.

Bio-balers might be proven, but the economics is questionable as well an nutrient depletion. There is lots of junk wood that mills won't buy from woodlots, I can see gathering that. Especially on lots where the fir is all shot (past it's prime) and the spruce might be limby (cow shades) on grown in pasture.

[breederman]

I know nyserda was pushing some kind of poplar for fuel a few years ago. mechanically harvested and bale. problem was hauling. If I remember right it was only economically feasible within 30 miles at that time.

[indiaxman1]

Agree with posts on everything burns...have burned it all (even considered busting up furniture in the 70's)...but if you have a solid hardwood...get it all..even small upper branches fit nicely in woodbox...and no splitting...this season about done...new cycle beginning, and with retirement looming, will truely enjoy logging ;D