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land owner got ripped off?

Started by ga jones, December 09, 2010, 11:49:22 AM

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craigc

I've heard people complain about bad loggers on this thread and I am not saying there aren't, But I don't hear any of the foresters say they just refuse to deal with them.  We started are mill and bought from some of the bad loggers and what did we get in return.  Consevation Police Officers at our office door needing scale tickets to veryfy timber taken from a landowner.  After this happen several times we just stopped buying from these loggers why did we want to be apart of this?  Foresters around here (Illinois) complain about loggers who repeatedly do bad jobs but pay big money on bid sells. Its real easy just say no to that logger( Only foresters I have know to do this are the State Foresters.) Its like letting out repeat criminals and thinking they are changed.  Proffessionalism starts with Leaders with the same moral ethics getting together and vow for a change in the way we do business.
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Ron Wenrich

When I was selling timber, there were guys who wouldn't even sniff a bid sheet.  These were guys that I had dealings with when I was scaling logs at a mill.  Also, a few of the foresters will get together and talk about certain loggers and mills. 

You can make the bid specs stringent enough to eliminate fly-by-night loggers.  They usually have no assets, or they are in someone else's name.  That means they can't put the down money or have money in escrow for damages.  They usually don't carry insurance, or insufficient amounts.  Many sales are paid in full before any wood is removed.

So, you can eliminate the riff raff with a good sales strategy.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ron Scott

We don't accept bids from any "poor loggers". They are pretty well known as to who they are in the certified foresters community. Any new loggers to our bid list have to have at least 10 references and their operations checked out before they are offered any of our jobs.

As stated above, most can't meet the bid and contract requirements and are weeded out immediately.
~Ron

akbird

I don't know about "wrong." I have to ask what it does to the logger's reputation? Unhappy landowners and other landowners who hear about lowballing the price, instead of finding the best middle ground for everyone, might not give you a call to come out and log their place.
How will my grandsons log, hunt, live in the woods and think about what we did there?

WDH

Quote from: craigc on December 12, 2010, 09:17:30 AM
But I don't hear any of the foresters say they just refuse to deal with them.  

I have refused to deal with a number of loggers and wood suppliers.  I was the Wood Procurement Manager for a large Pulp Mill and a Sawmill for a number of years, and learned who was reputable, did a good job, did what they said the would do, and would be there when you needed them.  I also learned who you could not trust, who would misrepresent or take advantage, and who did poor quality work.  These were the people that never got a wood order from us.  Also, any logger or supplier that knowingly violated the Best Management Practices had their contract immediately terminated.  No quarter.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

RynSmith

Glad to hear that WDH, I think it proves the point.

SwampDonkey

We always weeded the bad operators out when we managed woodlots for people at the marketing board. Most times we just hand picked the ones we wanted to deal with. In our agreements we represented the landowner, our way or good bye logger. If the landowner wanted to pick who they want, that was fine, we never took the job on. Can't be two bosses. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Phorester

Foresters are the ones who can weed out the bad loggers.  Landowners cannot, because they don't know what to look for in a good logger.  However, in my position as a State service forester who disgruntled landowners come to for help (after their timber is being cut - interesting that they don't come to a forester before they sell their timber to find out how they should do it) , I think that most landowners cause their own problems.  Then they want the government to solve it for them.

They ask; "Isn't there a law against (pick one)  - a) paying less than trees are worth, b) clearcutting, c) cutting trees on Sunday, d)taking months to cut my trees, e) leaving trash in the woods, f) cutting trees during hunting season, g) tearing up my roads, etc., etc.  They've never cut timber before, they visualize one thing, the logger visualizes something else.  Without a forester as a buffer in  between them, the landowner gets mad, the logger gets mad.  Quite often there is no written contract, which is the first thing I ask to see.  At that point about all I can say to the landowner is; you don't have a forestry problem, you have a legal problem. Then the landowner gets mad at me because he's getting no help from "the government". (In other words I'm not telling him what he wants to hear).

Phorester

Which reminds me......  I talked to a landowner once who really thought he was setting a timber buyer straight.  Thought he had the whole timber buying scheme figured out. He had put his timber out for bids, the only thing he did right.  Got 4 or 5 bids.  This was the point where he was talking to me.  Just a concidental conversation at a mutual friend's house one evening where he found out that I was a forester. He told me that when he went to the high bidder to sign the contract and get his down payment that he was going to say, I know you can pay more for my trees.  I know that you were hedging some on your offer so you could make more money.  So I want X more dollars before I sign the contract.  I explained that this was not the right thing to do, that the high bidder bid the full price he could pay, etc. The landowner then indicated that he felt that all these loggers were in cahoots to split the profit on these sales, that they just took turns being the high bidder to throw off the landowners,  and that I was also in cahoots with them to get a kickback too.

Months later I found out that this landowner did go to the high bidder and ask for more money.  The high bidder refused.  The landowner says, then I'll sell it to the next highest bidder.  The high bidder says go ahead.  Landowner goes to the second high bidder with the same line, second high bidder says get lost.  Landowner never could sell his timber.  He screwed himself.  

SwampDonkey

When I worked for the marketing board, I saw all kinds of scenarios and it wasn't always the logger's bad doing either. Many many woodlot owners in these parts are not ignorant of the woods business like some people seem to be hung up on in this discussion. This area is not downtown Urbana. ;) Heck, I've seen relatives rip one another off.

For instance, when a landowner gets assistance under the disguise of a woodlot management plan, which he pays nearly nothing for. Then takes the cruise in that plan and a market price list from the marketing board, multiplies the numbers, calls his logger up and proceeds to liquidate his woods. You'll hear whether they actually followed through their plan or not because if they don't get the volumes the cruise indicated (some cruises I've seen were sloppy when we had green graduates starting out) following their woodlot liquidation they call you up mad as a wet hen. Then you ask, where's your management plan. :D Nine out of ten plans were a liquidation in progress I'm afraid. I also refuse to write a plan when the woods were all cut before hand. What's the point of it? Any thinning that needs done will be found by a contractor 9 times out of 10 and doesn't cost the owner anything. "Come fix my woods" is a phrase that comes to mind many times. Most you won't even here from, just the silviculture contractor with a permission slip signed by the owner to thin his woods.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

I doubt many foresters are on many jobs in this area. I did have my lot cut off with no forester involved.I kinda know the prices and how things should be done and how the woods should look like when all done too.I am very happy with the money and how things look. But I do realize the value of a forester too.I like to see how others cut.I usually will walk the lot that has been cut. The landowners are at fault alot of times.They want it cut,TODAY. A good logger should be busy for 6 months to a year ahead. I've had some ask me for a good logger.I suggest a forester first,but know what they really want.Than I sent them to George who cut mine. He's busy,can't get to them for a year.I told them this to begin with.So they go with someone else that I would not even let them walk on my land,due to the way they cut. Leave a real mess,but they got some money. If they would of waited a year,they probably would of got more money and no where near the mess.
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