land owner got ripped off?

[ga jones]

I here alot Of this here and out in the woods. So heres my question. If a land owner calls me and I go in look at timber find out what they want to cut.And make them a low ball offer. And thy accept. Whose in the wrong........
Sometimes There are circumstances for low figures; steep side hills, blow downs, swamps, bad landing areas, long pulls. I bid with these in mind.Is it wrong? 

[TimRB]

If both you and the land owner are happy with the price, how could it possibly be wrong?

Tim

[Tom]

It depends on whose side of the forest you are on.

You as a logger are basically concerned with getting the most dollars for the smallest amount of work.  That isn't meant to be demeaning, but your incentive is built around crew wages, equipment and prices at the mill.

If the land-owner (generally the ignorant one in these cases) had a Forester speaking for him.  The concern would probably be more about Trees that are left, trees expected in the future and the continued viability of the owners wood lot.

Ethics enters here, but I'll not get into that because I'll not make judgement.

So, to answer your question, It depends.

In theory, the Logger is working for himself and the Forester is working for the land-owner, so it depends on what ethics you put to task.

The shame of it all is that all land-owners can't be Foresters. 

[SwampDonkey]

Nine chances out of ten, the guy that didn't get the job usually has his say as he tries to trash your methods and reputation. I've seen woodlots that had such poor wood that no matter who cut it, the neighborhood watchman will come in after and say they trashed the woods and didn't pay enough and all they are looking at is stumps and standing wood that represents what was standing and if anything should have also been cut.

[locustoak]

I'm not a forester, but I think the ethics part would apply more toward how you leave the woods. 
Have you ever tried to sell something at a pawn shop?  If both sides agree, I don't think it's wrong, unless the owner is a 90-year old lady in poor health.

[Tom]

Ethics is driven by guilt.  Some people can withstand a lot more guilt than others.

[Texas Ranger]

You have to bid according to what you see, you shoot a low ball so that you will cut out your bid.  No problem with that, only on how low a low ball.  If you have been a logger for awhile and know your business, you can get close, if you have a bid situation with other loggers, your bid will be close, if you want the tract.  

What we talk about is what is fair to the landowner, like Tom said, a shame more land owners are not foresters, but they can hire one.  The foresters cost will be covered by your low ball first contact bid.  

We don't dislike loggers, you guys make our living for us in a certain sense.  But just as there are dishonest foresters, there are dishonest loggers.  We try to hit a fair balance for the land owner. both in what we do and what you do.

Oh, Tom used the classic forester term,  "it depends".  Which is the real answer.

Stick around, we only attack steaks, hamburgers, and french frys.  This is to keep in the tradition of every post ending up about food.

[WDH]

How would you feel if you bought a new piece of equipment that you did not know much about, then come to find out later, that you paid the Dealer twice as much as you should have?  It is one thing to make a good deal, and it is another to gouge someone who is ignorant.

[northwoods1]

Ethics is driven by guilt.  Some people can withstand a lot more guilt than others.

boy I don't know... some people I have run across will blatantly rip others off and not think anything of it, at all. I'm not talking about loggers in particular but I see it a lot in the antique trade. Like recently I know of a guy who was doing some yard work for a lady and when he went in to her house he saw on a bookshelf this big old book, he asked about it and she showed it to him. Low and behold he had just been watching the antiques roadshow and saw this very book on there, otherwise he wouldn't have known anything about it probably never read a book the whole way through in his life, but anyway, on the roadshow they gave the appraisal. For a 3 volume set, mckinney & hall, the History of The Indian Tribes of North America - 1836-1844..... $80,000. Here he had one volume and recognized it offered her $200 for it and she accepted. he put it on ebay and promptly sold it for $12,000. He was real proud of himself.

I don't know when I buy wood I try to be fair. All I want is to make a decent living doing an honest days work. Of course whenever your bidding something lump sum you have to estimate conservatively and come up with a number your comfortable with, but that is not the same as sticking it to an uneducated landowner.

[Magicman]

My opinion, every timber sale should go through the landowner's forester who has done a cruise and bidded the sale.

At least, all of mine will.

[northwoods1]

My opinion, every timber sale should go through the landowner's forester who has done a cruise and bidded the sale.

At least, all of mine will.

I sure respect your opinion as I do everyone else. But I disagree I don't think a forester is necessary in every case some landowners are fully capable and knowledgeable enough to do without. And some jobs are straightforward not requiring marking and it is very common for landowners, around these parts) to just get payed by mill scale on actual wood cut. Some jobs might not be big enough to justify a forester either. Hope all the foresters here don't take offense about my comment.

[Magicman]

I respect what you said, and wish all of the honest loggers didn't live in Wi.

Actually we have honest loggers here. Most are, but even they need to know that someone is checking.    Honest folks are more honest when someone is watching.  You should never let the mouse guard the cheese.

They commonly cut trees, even with the landowner's knowledge, that were growing well and really needed to stay.  Maybe a junk tree or two needed to be removed to give them room.  That is where a Forester's expertise comes into play.

There is more than one mill.  Some will take a load to "their" mill on the sly.

Foresters have a list of reputable loggers and they all get to bid on the same cruise.  Also Foresters get paid a %.  Small jobs pay less and large jobs pay more.  All are justified.

And I am not a Forester.   

[Skiddah]

Let me preface this post by saying it's not directed at anyone in particular.  Any use of "you" is simply the collective you and means anyone and no one in particular.

Ethics and ethical work practices are often a balancing act.  We're all in the business to make money.  Everyone does it differently.  Some people have no problem blurring the lines, others walk the straight and narrow.  That's society for you.  Ethics also shape the future of business.  Practices that are deemed unethical are often outlawed, looked down upon, or ruled out as an option for conducting proper business.  Everyone's ethical background is different, and values differ from one person to the other.

Lowballing for the sake of lowballing, to me is unethical.  Everyone wants to get the best price out there, that's just good business sense.  Perhaps I hold myself to a higher ethical standard, I don't know.  Lowballing has a lot of negative connotations that surround it.  To me, low balling means that you know the value of whatever is at stake an are purposefully driving the price low.  For the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the phrase, lower bid.  To me this would mean that there are factors, such as terrain, value of the wood, etc. that ga jones mentioned, that would drive down the value of the bid.  This is not unethical, should you broach the subject the right way.  How does that happen?  Transparency, information, and communication.

Transparency lends a large helping hand to negotiations.  Should you need to come up with a lower offer, offering up some reasons why does a lot to keep things on the ethical side.  Without divulging too many trade secrets, give the reasons why your offer is what it is.  I'm not saying you need to open the books are tell everyone your bidding practice, that would be crazy and a quick way to send you business south.  But if the ground is too steep and the value of the wood is too low, say so.  Back it up with my next point, information.

Information is anyone's most valuable resource.  This goes directly to the heart of what WDH posted about a machinery purchasing scenario.  I agree with the statement for the most part, but would take it a step further.  Any time you're going to become involved in a deal, you need to surround yourself with good and pertinent information.  PT Barnum said, "A sucker is born every minute," but also a less than ethical person is born every minute to take full advantage of that sucker.  What separates a savvy business person or savvy landowner from the suckers is information.  If it means consulting a forester, getting more bids, or simply cracking a book, knowledge tips the scales in your favor.  To readdress WDH's scenario, it is the DUTY of the person(s) to find out all the ins and outs of the arrangement, values, or anything else that helps them arrive at a fair deal.

Communication, my final step in the ethics path, acts as the delivery method for my first two items.  Dialog both ways in the deal is crucial to make sure that everyone's concerns, comments, problems, and/or difficulties are addressed up front and in the open.  Be very wary of the person who dodges the issue, cannot answer your questions in a satisfying manner, or stays a little too quiet at the wrong times.  Not everyone has all the answers, but the people that you want to deal with direct you to where to find the information, should they not seek it out themselves.

I can only speak from a contractor's standpoint, since that is how I make my living.  I see it as my ethical duty to inform the uninformed.  Would it be easy to blind side someone and make the quick buck?  I assume it would, but never having done it, I fear that it would catch up to me in the long run.  We all know the stories.  XYZ Logging crosses boundary lines, gets fired from multiple jobs, leaves a big mess, the list runs on.  But what generally happens to XYZ Logging?  They don't last.  Sooner or later the powers that be catch up to them, or karma, if you will, wields it's heavy hand.  They get fired, fined, or locked up.  They get put out of business.  This doesn't generally happen as quickly as we'd like, and good people get hurt along the way, but eventually unethical practices catch up to them.

What makes you likable and successful in business is your name and by extention, your reputation.  People hire us because they cannot do it themselves, or do not want to do it themselves.  They respect us for the hardwork and dedication that the vast majority of us bring to the profession.  What brought a smile to my face on all the jobs I've done, is taking that time to explain to someone who didn't know (Can you tell I was a teacher at one time?).  When I answer their questions honestly, respectfully, and fully, I can see that sense of appreciation they have for what I'm doing, and that really makes it worth it for me.

Bottom line, only you can fully determine what is ethical in all situations.  There's certain standards to be upheld, but only you can follow them and accept full responsibility for any and all results.  That's the risk that we, as business people, take every day.

[Texas Ranger]

Quote from Northwoods1

I sure respect your opinion as I do everyone else. But I disagree I don't think a forester is necessary in every case some landowners are fully capable and knowledgeable enough to do without. And some jobs are straightforward not requiring marking and it is very common for landowners, around these parts) to just get payed by mill scale on actual wood cut. Some jobs might not be big enough to justify a forester either. Hope all the foresters here don't take offense about my comment.

No offense, and I do agree not all sales need a forester, but, how does a landowner know he is getting paid for each load?  I know, mill tickets, but how does he know the logger is giving him all the mill tickets, from all the mills?  How does he know how much is cut and what the volume/value is from his sale?

Does he have a contract?  With the mill or the logger? Did the logger use the typical one paragraph contract?  I buy, you sell?  Is the logger certified, does he know what an SMZ is?  Can he identify an SMZ?  

In most cases, the foresters pay for them selves in accuracy of a sale.  That 10 per cent or so that loggers take off the top for bid security usually pays the forester.

No offense intended.

[SwampDonkey]

I never even got that when administering sales at the marketing board. Got $3.50 a cord plus 2.2% in sales. 0.5 % of that went back into management. But, why we could afford this arrangement was the fact our office did $12M in sales, not all off administering sales. The $$ from the administered sales was less than 1 %. We would have maybe 3 sales on going at most at any point in time. But non-the-less 2.2% on gross is quite a sum, but it paid salaries of 3 or 4 office staff and 2-3 full time fielders and a couple summer students and vehicles. We weren't getting rich, our organization is "not for profit" and overseen by a commission of woodlot owners and board chairmen, industry and government appointees. The system works because I've seen at least four managers get the axe from "having their hands in the till, so to speak" The boards have also saved a lot of people from going bankrupt or loosing thousands when mills fail.

[Magicman]

I failed to take one point into consideration with my above post, Money.

My motive and goal is to improve my timber stand with select cutting with no regard to the income amount.  I feel that if timber is sold for any other reason than to improve the quality of that tract, then the tract loses.  In the long run, that tract will generate far more income for the landowner if money is not the motive for cutting.

If the motive is to generate a certain amount of money or as much money as possible or to just cut to a certain diameter and the landowner is supervising the operation, then OK.  Go for it.

[WDH]

Well said, Skiddah.

[northwoods1]

No offense, and I do agree not all sales need a forester, but, how does a landowner know he is getting paid for each load?  I know, mill tickets, but how does he know the logger is giving him all the mill tickets, from all the mills?  How does he know how much is cut and what the volume/value is from his sale? Does he have a contract?  With the mill or the logger? Did the logger use the typical one paragraph contract?  I buy, you sell?  Is the logger certified, does he know what an SMZ is?  Can he identify an SMZ?  

In most cases, the foresters pay for them selves in accuracy of a sale.  That 10 per cent or so that loggers take off the top for bid security usually pays the forester.

No offense intended.

Well.... I don't know I guess the landowner just trusts the logger 8)... hey all I can say is I know a lot of operators, in my experience!!, that I know and who operate around these parts that cut jobs for landowners and consulting foresters are not needed in many cases. Look at it this way... why would a logger who is in it for the long term want to screw people over? And like what I had been describing in my previous post sometimes the expertise of a forester is not needed some jobs are more straightforward lfor example non-log jobs, just pulpwood where everythign is cut or just a certain species is cut. And payment is made by mill scale. I don't know... actually when I think about it, in 24 years of logging on private,county,state,federal, and tribal land ... most of that time I was cutting under a forester. I don't know though... I guess in short I would say I think there are some landowners who are competent enough to make certain kinds of managment decisions, I mean I've cut has to be hundreds of jobs without a foresters guidance and no body got screwed. I've subcontracted to dozens of operators that would tell you the same. Probably sacriligious to say that here :-[  and hey, somebody please acknowledge that there are ignorant and crooked foresters too please :D again, I can't believe how fine everyone is on this board there is a lot of really good people here, but there are ignorant and crooked/un-ethical foresters that is just a fact sorry to bring it up :-[

[WDH]

OK, I will say it, "There are ignorant and crooked/un-ethical foresters."  I have known a few in my time. 

There is a certain percentage of crooked/un-ethical people in any profession, even the clergy. 

[MDLogging]

Reading these posts brings me to mind of a funny story that my buddy was telling me about last week.  He said a man called him about clear cutting a tract of timber a while back.  He cruised it, gave the man a price of $23,000 and the man said he'd think about it.  He never heard back from the man and the guy wouldnt return my friends calls so my friend just assumed he sold it to someone else.  A few weeks past and my buddy got a bid sheet from a consulting forester on the same exact piece of timber he gave the man a price on weeks prior.  Needless to say,  my friends bid stayed the same($23,000), he was the highest bid and the man had to hand a check to the consulting forester for $2300.

[Tom]

I'm sure there are stories like that circulated on both sides. Well, at least two people got put to work.

Hopefully the land-owner will get something for his $2300 other than a bid sheet.  Foresters get measured by the fact that they got paid, a lot of times, when it's easy to overlook the fact that they have a lot of book learning, schooling, OJT, apprenticeships behind them.  They will also cruise and design the replanting and site prep, then follow through with maintenance, if so desired.

Being a land-owner, I can appreciate both professions.  Loggers have a tough job, but when it comes right down to it, loggers work for themselves and the mill.  I've never regretted the advice I have gotten from Foresters and if it weren't so readily available would have had my flying feathers clipped a long time ago.  I can't honestly say that the money earned by a Forester is wasted.

[timberjackrob]

i no longer log fulltime but still take on small jobs near the house as i now have a public job but i always cut on a percentage basis usually  50/50 somtimes if the timber was really good i would give the landowner 60 percent or if it contained alot of lowgrade i would get 60 percent this way the landowner shares in the risk if the timber dosent cut well ie hidden holes in the logs or past fire damage or if the price drops after the deal is made this is a very common practice around here most everybody seems happy with it

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been on both sides of the forestry profession ... consultant and procurement.  I've worked for mills, loggers, and landowners.  From my personal aspect, the quality of management was the same, no matter who pays the bill.  The timber gets marked the same, the bid sheets are developed the same, and the base price is set the same.

Bidding can be a double edged sword.  If I'm working as a procurement forester, then the base price is what I think it is worth to the mill.  If I'm working for the landowner, than the base price is what I figure the timber is worth.  If the bidding comes in above that, then the bidding process has done the work, not necessarily the forester.  

I think that loggers should work the same way, and many do.  They develop their price, and they pay that amount, no matter if its a bid sale, or a landowner coming in off the street.  When reviewing bids, the guys with the low ball numbers were always the ones who weren't interested in buying the timber, just looking to see what the competition was bidding.  

I've seen good foresters do good work, and poor foresters really hose over landowners.  I know of one forester who made more money on sales than the landowner.  They would give the landowner one price, and then market the timber for the highest price.  Many foresters feed loggers and mills with unbid timber.  Then, they'll tell the landowner that they were the highest bidder.  Other foresters will underscale timber to make it look like they are getting a higher price than what loggers state the same timber was worth.  The guys buying the timber know who's doing it.  

So, where do the ethics come into play?    I kind of look at it this way.  Firstly, the forester or logger is the steward of the land.  You don't own the land, but the landowner is handing that responsibility over to you when you start putting the saw to the wood.  If you don't respect someone else's land, than you violate that responsibility.

Secondly is how you handle your finances.  Not only do they trust you with the stewardship of the land, they trust you in the stewardship of the marketing of the product.  They expect a reasonable return on their property.  If the landowner feels cheated, you can never get enough good publicity to overcome the bad.  But, that's a business decision.

Landowners should always get more than one opinion, no matter if its foresters or loggers.  Then decide on a good one.

[DonT]

Tom brought up the concept of ethics.When asked to define ethics I always say it is the way in which you act,work, and conduct business when no one else is around.That being said i also realize this is not a perfect world and not everyone feels the same way i do.

[Randy88]

There are a lot of sides to this I'll dwell on just one for now, first off if you were asked to bid and you did and they accepted the offer and your both grownups and legal adults then no you did nothing wrong provided you do your best to take care of the timber and leave the owner with an opinion of respecting you for how he was treated and how his timber was treated.   

Now that said there are a lot of factors that drive a sale and most nobody really knows but the guy selling and the guy buying, now neighbors can speculate all they want to but its really nobody else's business, now if the spectators feel there was something amiss then so be it but basically it ends there.    I've been involved in a lot of these things over the years, not with logging per say but I'm a contractor and do work for pay, I log on my own for private needs and enjoyment.   I have been involved in a lot of circumstances where the owner wanted me to bid on work, why? it all depends and those reasons drive the response of the owner if they are happy or not, now I've had a lot of problems over this for decades, I can do the job cheaper for the guy if we did it by the hour vs. bidding on it, I have to take into account any unexpected expenses weather they happen or not, so in reality the owner gets billed for things that can go wrong even if they don't.    I've explained this many times and every time they are willing to pay that and know it upfront even if it doesn't happen.   It has never made sense to me nor ever will but is it unethical to take what I bid it for and got the winning bid on even if it doesn't go wrong or cost me the added cost?    I had to take the risk, just like the owner and yes I take the extra money if things go right and it didn't cost me the added expense, it was in the deal upfront.   I'll never understand it but as its been put to me by owners dozens of times, thats what they want, to know exactly upfront what it'll cost with no hidden surprises so thats what we do.   I feel I've done nothing wrong when things go right or wrong, I've even ran this by my lenders and they all tell me its business and a business deal and nobody got took, on some jobs we just make more money on is all, and remember I got the low bid, others bid more, so in actually I made more money off a job that went good and at the same time I made less than any other bidder would have, so look at it how you like.   

I've even got jobs where I bid the highest price on not the lowest and the only answer I've ever gotten was, the owner told me he trusted me and not the others, I've gotten jobs where I was the only one to bid on it as well, either others didn't want to or others were not asked to bid, only me.   Should I feel special, no, I did what I was asked and its not really anybody else's opinion if I got the job or not, most times I have no idea until after I was the only one to bid and really is doesn't matter anyhow, all I'm concerned with is the fact I did what I said I would and did quality work and the owner is happy, who else really matters in the long run.   My opinion is and always has been the one that pays the bill gets what they want as long as its done in a business like manner and I did good quality work and I met their criteria in the end, now I have turned down a lot of work over the years where what is wanted won't work or isn't what I consider ethical or will end up being a poor quality job but thats just me.   I know the circumstances are a little different but the principles are the same.   If you got the job and do a good job and both sides are happy then you've done nothing wrong.    I've had people tell me over the years that I've gotten jobs that I was not the lowest priced but the highest priced and I was confused as to why I got the job and many times I've been told, its worth it to me[the owner] because I've never had problems with your work and I have with others.   In those circumstances should I have taken less and done the job for what others bid lower on?   Is it unethical to take the price I bid the job on even if its higher than others?   The answer is no, now the reason why is nobody would ever find out unless someone let it slip as to the fact how much everyone bid or someone was unhappy who didn't get the bid.  I've done nothing wrong or feel I've done nothing wrong even if I ended up doing the job for more, in the end its the owners decision and nobody else's.   

Everyone can hash over how much more someone would have made if a forester would have been involved or how much the forester would have taken and so on, but in the end its the owners decision and nobody else's or for that fact not their business either.    Its no different than trading machines and after the fact someone claims that so and so would have done a better deal, well its a little late in the process to complain or downgrade the deal or make judgement on someone else's decision or convince the owner he was wrong or made a poor choice, thats unethical in my opinion but thats a whole different discussion altogether.   

[SwampDonkey]

Around here, 99.9% of the time there is no forester involved because the owner doesn't want a middleman and feels he knows what he wants and who. There is no changing that, and most have not been persuaded otherwise. Simple as that. All I've ever seen most foresters used for was their cruise, that's about where it ends because the owner has access to up to date markets from forest products marketing boards and with his cruise can multiply the numbers. In most cases it's only about the money and 95% of hired harvests is clear cutting. Otherwise the owners do some harvest work, mostly for firewood needs and sell small volumes every once in awhile.

[Tom]

It is a business deal and if only the money is considered then "Buyer beware".

But, it is not just a business deal where just the money is considered.  It's not a land clearing operation, it's a gardening job.  That's why Foresters have a place in the woods.

From the reading of this thread, it seems to me that Loggers are only interested in the ability to take down the trees and get the logs sold.  They are independent enough that they want to do it and not answer to anyone for it but the landowner.

Foresters spend a lot of time in school and in the woods to learn what to do for the Forest.  They are also trained, supposedly, in the business part of growing trees, like taxes, as well as the cruising, grading and selling/buying part.  But, it doesn't stop there.  A Forester is a master gardener for those who haven't the knowledge to manage their own garden.  As much as we landowners might think we know, because it is ours, we usually don't.  It's sales and the lack of promotion that is killing Forestry.  Loggers are knocking on doors and talking their craft.  Loggers are seen on the roads with trucks loaded with logs, seen in the woods taking down trees, even having a TV show about them now.  That amounts to a lot of visibility and, because of that, landowners might go straight to them thinking that the job is done there.

Foresters, on the other hand, work behind the scenes.  Unfortunately they aren't into self promotion, so the public doesn't recognize them as part of the equation.  That's terribly unfortunate and a lot of the blame has to be laid directly on the Foresters.

Still, if it weren't for Foresters, loggers would eventually run out of trees.  It's a shame that they don't recognize that there is more to it than convincing a landowner that their woodlot is only as valuable as the logs that can be removed today.

It's a little bit like the trucking industry.  Every kid wants to be a trucker.  Its a glorious job.  You get to drive a big shiny truck down the road and make people move out of your way.  You can brag about moving the nations goods and blow air horns to make the little kids marvel.  But, behind all of that is a trained and schooled mechanic with a wrench who watches tire wear, changes oil, fixes broken stuff, and makes sure that the truck is ready for its next load.  He doesn't share in the glory, but without him, there would be a lot of drivers out of work.  It is not in either ones best interest to undercut the other, even if the driver knows how to change his battery, or the mechanic knows how to shift the gears.

I have a lot more respect for someone who knows his job and knows where his job starts and stops. 

It is considered unethical for a Forester to bid on the same job he is cruising, even if he knows how to run a chainsaw.  I think there should be some ethics assigned to the logger who cuts out the Forester.

I sawed wood. I didn't take down trees, nor run a kiln.  I could have, but would rather tell the customer that I did what I did and would help them find someone who did the other.

The problem with trees is that, if you screw over a landowner, he doesn't just move on to the next batch of trees tomorrow.  He may never see another crop.  I think there should be enough guilt associated with it that the ethics of fairness take place.  You can't justify screwing someone over by saying, "He should have known better."

[Phorester]

If a landowner and a timber buyer agree on a price, both a buyer and a seller are satisfied.  It's a fair business deal.  A landowner would have a very hard time convincing a court that he got cheated by the timber buyer after he agreed to the price offered.

I get called when the landowner has sold timber, then his trees start getting cut, then his neighbor/wife/brother-in-law/best friend/whoever, tells him he got screwed by the timber buyer.  Bull. The buyer made an offer, the landowner accepted. My first question to the landowner, how does your neighbor/wife/brother-in-law/best friend/whoever, know how much your timber is worth?  They don't. It's the old story of you selling your used car thinking you made a good deal, then your buddy says, shoot, I could have got a lot more for it  than that. Easy to say, and human nature to run down somebody else's deal. If the landowner got paid less than the timber was really worth, then he did it to himself. This is why a landowner should get more than one offer on his timber.

In my area, if it is a bid sale, quite often the low bid is about 1/2 of the high bid.  Some landowners immediately think that the low bidder is trying to steal his timber.  My response;- think about this, Mr. landowner, how can he be trying to steal your timber?  The lower bidder knew this was a bid sale, that he would be competing with other buyers for this sale.   He bid what it was worth to him at the time based on his costs of getting the trees out and markets for the products he would produce from your trees. Maybe he saw problems with a stream crossing, access to a State road, etc., that he didn't want to deal with or didn't know how to. Another reason - maybe he didn't really want the timber, but wants people to know that he will bid on sales, so he bids low actually hoping he doesn't get it but keeps his name in the bidders' pot in the local area.

Look at the high bidder's bid. He probably had better markets for the particular tree, sizes, and quality than the low bidder.  He may even have paid more than the timber was worth because he needed the sale to keep his crews or mill operating and is willing to take a loss on this sale  to accomplish this, hoping to make it up down the road. He looked at the afore-mentioned problems and knew he could successfully solve them. He may have been trying to knock a fellow buyer out of the market just for spite. Lots of reasons for the spread between low and high bids on a bidded sale.

Regarding MDlogging's example, the buyer offering the same price for the timber he originally made by himself after it was put up for general bids, how would the landowner know this was the best bid unless it was put up for bids by a consulting forester who knows the timber markets and put his bid out to many, many more buyers than the landowner knows about himself?  This insures that every buyer in the market for this timber was duly notified, so the prices offered were a true representation of the actual market at the time.  The consulting forester made sure of that for the landowner.

I've heard too many stories from landowners who had a consultant sell their timber who say that a timber buyer told him later that he would have paid that much for it and I wouldn't have had to pay that consultant his commission. That's so easy to say after the sale.  Another line of bull. As Tom says, the landowner will get more for his $2300 commission paid to the forester.  He should get the sale managed by the forester, who will see to it that the contract is adhered to, that minimum damage is done to remaining timber and the property, will see to it that all laws are adhered to so the landowner won't get fined, will see that the skid trails, landings, stream crossings, haul roads, are put back into good shape before the logger leaves.

A fair business deal is when an informed buyer and an informed seller both agree upon a price. Most times the buyer, who buys timber every week for his living, is informed, but the landowner, who may sell timber only once or twice in his entire lifetime, is not. If the landowner is not an informed seller, meaning that he does not know the timber markets,which they usually don't,  that's where a consulting forester working for the landowner comes into play.

This may not be true in other areas, but in my area a good consulting forester will get a landowner 200% - 400% more for the same timber than the landowner selling it himself. After marking and tallying the species of trees, their sizes, their quality, the consultant knows the buyers who will pay top dollar for these particular trees and he will make a concerted effort to get them to bid on it.  A typical landowner knows of maybe 3 or 4 timber buyers.  A consultant will put out bids to 50 or more buyers. He will monitor the  logging operation for the landowner,keep him out of legal hot water with water quality laws, permits, etc,  and insure that he gets paid all the money he is due.  All this is well worth his 5% - 20% commission.

Back to ga jones original question, he as a buyer made an offer, the landowner as a seller accepted. A legal business deal was completed.
 

[SwampDonkey]

Sometimes when the forester puts his shingle out, some loggers get a little testy. I've seen it once in awhile.  I think they all believe we are working for Irving. I've had comments to that effect in mall parking lots. :D

[Ron Scott]

That can happen. ;) Evidently, the landowner was more comfortable with a consultant forester working for him, soliciting bids, and manageing the harvest through to completion according to established contract terms.

Hopefully the high bid was not so far out of line from the other bids received.

[Ron Scott]

Two Cases of Timber Theft in Louisiana

Arkansas Man Accused of Louisiana Timber Theft

Associated Press (December 9) - Louisiana Agriculture and Forestry Commissioner Mike Strain said an Arkansas man was arrested on a felony timber theft charge after an absentee landowner from Los Angeles, California, hired him to cut 40 acres of timberland in Bienville Parish. The perpetrator cut the 40 acres and sold the wood, but allegedly did not pay the landowner for the timber. The timber was valued at $29,000.

Campti Man Charged with Timber Theft

KTBS.com (Louisiana, December 6) - A Natchitoches Parish man is facing charges of timber theft. Louisiana Department of Agrciulture and Forestry enforcement officers say the perpetrator cut timber from a property in June and July. He allegedly sold the timber to a mill, but never paid the estate from the profits.

[craigc]

In the state of Illinois a "Forester" does not need a degree in anything just a business card.  The only good foresters in my area are the state foresters. They mark the timber according to what needs taken out not what will make them more money.  They have no financial intrest in the deal.  People have talked about how foresters will come out to view the job and make suggestion or manage.  I completed a private forester timber sell this summer and never saw the guy on the job once.  In fifteen years of buying private forester jobs I have seen one forester hit my landing.  I will call my local state foresters and they love to come out to see the job.  I have called them out on many of my own sales to help me mark the timber and share ideas.  Recently there was a private forester sell and he called my buddy to ask if he was bidding, my buddy said "No don't you know two  of the area Grade mills are not buying logs."  The forester had no idea.  The privates around here are just as big of high graders as some of the loggers 10% of a $300 Veneer White Oak is alot easier to mark than the double White Oak with epicormic branching standing right next to it.  I know there are good Private Foresters out there. But treat a landowner like you want to be treated and things seem to work out good for all.  Alot of the high priced bid sells end up with  bad harvesting practices because they are in a hurry to get the wood out.  And if the forester doesn't come out who cares.  I have 4 more private sells to do then I am going to try to get all the wood are mill needs by myself.  Some of you have talked about some very good foresters I just wish we had them here, but what do you expect from Illinois we gave you Obama.

[Ron Scott]

I agree that Illinois may be lacking in certified foresters. None are listed by the Association of Consulting Foresters.

It's hard to understand that a "real forester" wouldn't be out on their logging operations and taking resposibility and gaining experience from their work accomplishments.

We're on our logging jobs at least once a week as a minimum and more often depending upon the logging contractor and operation.

[loggit]

Here is a topic that can go round and round on. So I will speak primarily of our own experiences.

First off when we cut a woodlot, it is to meet the landowners needs, not ours. Our success is a by product of their success. We are selling wood to the mills but working for the landowner,we are not working for the mill. We cut a woodlot as if we are going to be the one cutting the timber off it the next time.

I have seen both sides of the spectrum too. From where once the timber was cut, it didn't open up as thought, but the forester and landowner made out but the logger got stuck. I've cut marked timber where I thought what was the forester thinking. Once trees are cut it changes the complexion of the forest, I have left marked trees by a forester as it would have opened up the woods to drastic. On the flip side I've seen where the logger paid dirt cheap prices and the landowner didn't make out as he should have. I have seen loggers mark timber where they strictly hygraded the woods also.

As far as scale goes there are alot of mills who scale, grade and pay right on the landing. If we have a concerning landowner we encourage them to be present at that time and accomodate them to that. Also what was stated before, as far as some discrepancy in bids, yes some mills simply put in a bid with absolutely no intention of buying the logs but using it as a feeler to see what other mills are paying. And a forester from one of the largest mills here told me that personally.

At the end of the day I think it is who one feels comfortable with,( Forester or contractor,) the element of trust and reputation. Reputation is a great tool if good. For us recommendations and repeat business is something to strive for. We try to educate landowners because I find out that their unfamilarity with timber is the biggest drawback to them making a decision.

[Ron Wenrich]

craigc

Sounds a lot like Pennsylvania.  There is no licensing, so anyone can call themselves a forester.  Guys have gotten around that by calling themselves "timber manager" or some other name.  But, licensing nor certification guarantees that there is any competency in how the forester carries out his practice.  Knowledge and application are 2 different animals.

[Cedarman]

On the other hand the guy that paid the $2300 now knows the $23,000 was the top price.  He was willing to pay that money for that assurance.   More often than not, I see it go the other way and the 10% was money well spent.
Many years ago, I bid on a tract of mostly poplar.  Bids ranged from 16,000 to 87,000 and many in between.  About 10 bidders were in play.   I was in the 60s.  Were some unethical, don't know.  

The land owner needs to be educated and not sit on their butts just trusting someone else to give them the best deal.  It don't happen.  Landowners should be proactive.

Would a rancher let a cattle buyer come in, pick the cattle he wanted to buy, tell him the weights, tell him the quality and just accept it.  No, the cattleman picks the ones he wants to sell, runs them across the scale, knows the daily market prices,  manages his herd to be as productive as possible.

[craigc]

On the recent sales I bought we redid the foresters timber contract between the landowner and myself.  It now is a contract between the landowner, myself and the forester.  It could be the first one of its kind in Illinois. I think it is only logical that the forester be ties to the contract.  How do other states or foresters do thier contracts and what are thier obligations?  Here they just spray paint send out a few bid notices and then collect a check and good-bye.  I enjoy meeting with a landowner that has some knowledge or desire for it.  If they are management driven I enjoy walking in the woods and will try to get the state forester to come out to meet with them and see if we are on the same idea. If not change to thier plan and move ahead. Landowners not intrested in any type of managment just money I just walk away from. They seem to be the biggest problems.
I can give a better price on a job I have marked myself because I walk to every tree and evaluate it.  In a bid job it is a cruise through the woods, check the venner trees that are marked,overall timber quality and back to the truck. The low bidding thing doesn't make sense to me give the person true value of the timber, treat others the way you would like to be treated.

[Autocar]

I feel if the landowner is happy and the logger is happy I don't see a problem with that. I seldom buy any forest marked timber. Reason being theres to many clauses in the contract like they want a $1000.00 and will hold it for a year so if a feild tile four feet under the ground you crossed getting to the woodlot gets cracked crossing it with a heavy load that will pay the repair bill. Or $ incase theres damage to other standing trees. Plus bid sales as far as I am concerened theres no money to be made after every company in three states have bid on it. I have always bought timber though word of mouth,if I get a call from a widow lady old older gentelman I will always tell them to talk it over with the kids so every one is up front. I have a good reputation and want to keep it, make one bad deal and everyone in tri state area will know. I have other thoughts but for now will keep my mouth shut  ;D

[barbender]

Land owners that are ignorant of their timbers value and how things work are always going to be susceptible to getting swindled by either crooked loggers or crooked foresters. No matter if it is buying wood or doing some dirt work for someone, etc. I just try to give a fair price, where it enough to make it worth my while and the customer gets a job well done. I tend to give too good of prices, I usually wish I had made more on a job. If your conscience is bugging you maybe you didn't pay enough. If I had someone completely ignorant of their timber value and I offered them half of the going rate that they could get from someone else that would do a comparable job, I think my conscience would bug me. I always encourage people to shop around, I explain prices well up front, and if someone else can do it better/cheaper than me so be it. On the forester issue, I know there are good foresters and in general I think an uninformed landowner is money ahead hiring one. A friend that was running a CTL operation down in Georgia had some pretty negative experiences with private foresters down there, a good many of them were not looking out for the landowners interest, only the money in their pocket. The more wood cut, the more they made. There were many jobs were the forester would bring in the CTL equipment on the challenging wood and let a conventional crew cut the easy access wood because it was cheaper, but the conventional crews were skinning/damaging residuals that made them lose value in the next harvest. I think the commision/percentage based payment method causes a conflict of interest.

[SwampDonkey]

I've cut brush many times on woodlots and very few landowners even care to be there to see what's taking place. Some tell me "they never walked back there in 20 years", and don't seem to have a desire to.  They didn't walk near the place when it was being harvested by some logger neither. That's the attitude of many, I'm afraid gentlemen. I know of one forester who was so fed up with owner's attitudes towards managing their woods through silviculture and best management practices he pretty much gave up trying to sell it. In his experience they were just looking at the money. He worked at one of the boards and passed away in 2008. That's pretty much what I see to. That's why it's rare to see any foresters in this area making a go at it. Most become loggers and silviculture contractors dependent on government incentives to do the work. Otherwise, they do what they have to, to make a living. A few (darn few) spring up as environmental consultants like for these certification schemes and many are mainly engineering firms.

[Texas Ranger]

When timber was high I made a fair percentage of my income by assisting the DA and Sheriff in prosecuting timber thieves.  They were, totally, loggers.  Never prosecuted a teacher, banker, mill owner, barber, beautician, all loggers.   Was involved in one case concerning a forester.

Like it or not, timber thieves are loggers, not the other way around.  The only way a land owner is protected is by using a third party as a cushion between land owner and logger.

A case in point.  The father of a friend of mine married one of a pair of sisters who had inherited 350 acres of land, the other sister was married to a timber broker (timber pimp).  My friends father called me to ask the current price of timber, which at the time was about $45 per ton, stumpage.  I advised the guy that he needed a forester to work with them on the job, not necessarily me as a friend of mine had worked the land for years.  Mill gate at the time was around $67 per ton.

Months later I ran into the father and he said that they had sold the timber through his wifes brother in law for the amount I had told him, but, he said, we had to split half with the logger.  So the timber pimp and logger got some where around $45 a ton and the sisters split $22 a ton.  This was a good all weather site, flat, good soil.  All because they had no concept of stumpage and mill gate prices, as well as common logging practices.

All I could do was walk away.  Were sisters taken?  You bet.  By conmen loggers.

Say what you want, if you are a good honest logger, more power to you, but there are a bunch out there that are not, and as timber prices slide lower, it is harder to make that living without some sort of edge, and the third party is the only way a land owner can be assured of a fair deal.

[SwampDonkey]

We had one instance where it was a mill who conned a gentleman that was living like a hermit on an old farm. The mill was out of province, in Quebec. Even the loggers got took by the time they were done. We cruised stumps and sent the mill a bill for wood levy, that 2.2% I've talked about. It wasn't huge dollars, but the law is levy on private wood sales. If I recall, we got some but not all the levy. I think half. It wasn't mature wood, but second growth hardwood (maple,beech,yellow birch), which can grow thick. As far as the owner of the woodlot, I don't think he had any means to pursue them for anything and not much of an education. He had made an agreement, and that was that. The whole neighborhood up there was fuming mad over it. Lots of people, "don't want your help", when it comes to the woods business. Case in point. ;) We only got involved because a director lived in the community and wanted to pursue the levy money.

[red oaks lumber]

well after reading all the posts, i have one conclusion. the "foresters fraternity" should go on a public awareness campain to convince the landowner why he should hire them.

[ga jones]

I agree with phorester. Well stated.

[WDH]

It pays to know what you are doing.  If not, seek professional help, be it a lawyer, investment advisor, forester, etc. depending on what it is that you don't know what you are doing.  That is what smart people do. 

Many times people that are not smart think that they can save money by doing everything themselves.  Sometimes that does not pay like acting as your own lawyer or investing large amounts of money without knowledge of the markets. 

As to selling timber, there is a right way to do it.  If you do not understand or have the skills to do it the right way, seek professional help, or you may have a bad experience.  Many people do not understand what happens when you put big equipment in the woods and cut timber.  They are surprised when the logger cuts and hauls the good trees off the property (generally as fast as they can so as to be the most productive).  Sometimes the aftermath is not pretty.  In some cases, there is little regard for the trees that remain, and damage that takes decades to overcome is done. 

It is not all about price at all.  That is just the first part.  In fact, to me, that is the easy part.  The hardest part is making sure that the process is done in the most positive and productive way for all parties while preserving the integrity of the forest stand, the soils, the roads, the water, and the wildlife.

[craigc]

This discussion has reveled to me all that is wrong with the forest industry.  Everybody thinks they are better than the other person and they are needed to keep the other one honest.  Lack of proffessionalism is on display folks just come over to the Forest Products Industry.  It is why we were ran over by the enviromental groups no cohesion in are industry.  They did not have to divide and conqueer we have done it ourselves.

[snowstorm]

This discussion has reveled to me all that is wrong with the forest industry.  Everybody thinks they are better than the other person and they are needed to keep the other one honest.  Lack of proffessionalism is on display folks just come over to the Forest Products Industry.  It is why we were ran over by the enviromental groups no cohesion in are industry.  They did not have to divide and conqueer we have done it ourselves.

very well said

[WDH]

Craigc,

That is an interesting view.  However, I do not share it.  There is nothing new about people swindling or cheating other people.  It is done everyday in every type of business.  The Forest Industry is no different than any other.  

It is easier to cheat people with no knowledge or experience or who are not paying attention to what is going on.  Bernie Madoff, if he was a logger, would have been a cheat, a swindle, and a thief, but probably not quite as big of one as he was stealing people's money rather than their timber.

[northwoods1]

This discussion has reveled to me all that is wrong with the forest industry.  Everybody thinks they are better than the other person and they are needed to keep the other one honest.  Lack of proffessionalism is on display folks just come over to the Forest Products Industry.  It is why we were ran over by the enviromental groups no cohesion in are industry.  They did not have to divide and conqueer we have done it ourselves.

I find this thread very interesting everyone has good points I am always impressed with these forums here, and how balanced the views are topics get covered pretty thoroughly.

I don't think there is any lack of professionalism here I think it is the other way around! I really do. You need to listen to what all these people have said and think about it.

It is my observation that the point made about a landowner needing a forester to keep the loggers honest that is a good point. It is true that a good rule to live by in many situations is "trust but verify" there is nothing wrong with that because you would be guarding against something that is just human nature... not something particular to loggers like WDH has pointed out

It occurred to me though, that some of the best working relationships I have ever seen operated on the principal of total trust without the 2ble checking.

The statement that a 3rd party is the only way a landowner can get a fair deal... well that obviously is not true. It can & does happen every day all over the place. Just a fact. Also just a fact that landowners get ripped off, I know that too :D





I mean it isn't a big secret , the stereotypes that exist about the logging industry/loggers and most people have them for good reason. 

[bill m]

In my 25 or so years cutting timber I have not met one landowner whose goal was a long term income producing forest who could handle a timber sale himself. Most land owners do not have the knowledge to grow timber and most loggers do not either. I have people often asking me to cut their timber and I always tell them a forester will be marking the lot.

[craigc]

I've heard people complain about bad loggers on this thread and I am not saying there aren't, But I don't hear any of the foresters say they just refuse to deal with them.  We started are mill and bought from some of the bad loggers and what did we get in return.  Consevation Police Officers at our office door needing scale tickets to veryfy timber taken from a landowner.  After this happen several times we just stopped buying from these loggers why did we want to be apart of this?  Foresters around here (Illinois) complain about loggers who repeatedly do bad jobs but pay big money on bid sells. Its real easy just say no to that logger( Only foresters I have know to do this are the State Foresters.) Its like letting out repeat criminals and thinking they are changed.  Proffessionalism starts with Leaders with the same moral ethics getting together and vow for a change in the way we do business.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I was selling timber, there were guys who wouldn't even sniff a bid sheet.  These were guys that I had dealings with when I was scaling logs at a mill.  Also, a few of the foresters will get together and talk about certain loggers and mills. 

You can make the bid specs stringent enough to eliminate fly-by-night loggers.  They usually have no assets, or they are in someone else's name.  That means they can't put the down money or have money in escrow for damages.  They usually don't carry insurance, or insufficient amounts.  Many sales are paid in full before any wood is removed.

So, you can eliminate the riff raff with a good sales strategy.

[Ron Scott]

We don't accept bids from any "poor loggers". They are pretty well known as to who they are in the certified foresters community. Any new loggers to our bid list have to have at least 10 references and their operations checked out before they are offered any of our jobs.

As stated above, most can't meet the bid and contract requirements and are weeded out immediately.

[akbird]

I don't know about "wrong." I have to ask what it does to the logger's reputation? Unhappy landowners and other landowners who hear about lowballing the price, instead of finding the best middle ground for everyone, might not give you a call to come out and log their place.

[WDH]

But I don't hear any of the foresters say they just refuse to deal with them.  

I have refused to deal with a number of loggers and wood suppliers.  I was the Wood Procurement Manager for a large Pulp Mill and a Sawmill for a number of years, and learned who was reputable, did a good job, did what they said the would do, and would be there when you needed them.  I also learned who you could not trust, who would misrepresent or take advantage, and who did poor quality work.  These were the people that never got a wood order from us.  Also, any logger or supplier that knowingly violated the Best Management Practices had their contract immediately terminated.  No quarter.

[RynSmith]

Glad to hear that WDH, I think it proves the point.

[SwampDonkey]

We always weeded the bad operators out when we managed woodlots for people at the marketing board. Most times we just hand picked the ones we wanted to deal with. In our agreements we represented the landowner, our way or good bye logger. If the landowner wanted to pick who they want, that was fine, we never took the job on. Can't be two bosses. ;)

[Phorester]

Foresters are the ones who can weed out the bad loggers.  Landowners cannot, because they don't know what to look for in a good logger.  However, in my position as a State service forester who disgruntled landowners come to for help (after their timber is being cut - interesting that they don't come to a forester before they sell their timber to find out how they should do it) , I think that most landowners cause their own problems.  Then they want the government to solve it for them.

They ask; "Isn't there a law against (pick one)  - a) paying less than trees are worth, b) clearcutting, c) cutting trees on Sunday, d)taking months to cut my trees, e) leaving trash in the woods, f) cutting trees during hunting season, g) tearing up my roads, etc., etc.  They've never cut timber before, they visualize one thing, the logger visualizes something else.  Without a forester as a buffer in  between them, the landowner gets mad, the logger gets mad.  Quite often there is no written contract, which is the first thing I ask to see.  At that point about all I can say to the landowner is; you don't have a forestry problem, you have a legal problem. Then the landowner gets mad at me because he's getting no help from "the government". (In other words I'm not telling him what he wants to hear).

[Phorester]

Which reminds me......  I talked to a landowner once who really thought he was setting a timber buyer straight.  Thought he had the whole timber buying scheme figured out. He had put his timber out for bids, the only thing he did right.  Got 4 or 5 bids.  This was the point where he was talking to me.  Just a concidental conversation at a mutual friend's house one evening where he found out that I was a forester. He told me that when he went to the high bidder to sign the contract and get his down payment that he was going to say, I know you can pay more for my trees.  I know that you were hedging some on your offer so you could make more money.  So I want X more dollars before I sign the contract.  I explained that this was not the right thing to do, that the high bidder bid the full price he could pay, etc. The landowner then indicated that he felt that all these loggers were in cahoots to split the profit on these sales, that they just took turns being the high bidder to throw off the landowners,  and that I was also in cahoots with them to get a kickback too.

Months later I found out that this landowner did go to the high bidder and ask for more money.  The high bidder refused.  The landowner says, then I'll sell it to the next highest bidder.  The high bidder says go ahead.  Landowner goes to the second high bidder with the same line, second high bidder says get lost.  Landowner never could sell his timber.  He screwed himself.  

[SwampDonkey]

When I worked for the marketing board, I saw all kinds of scenarios and it wasn't always the logger's bad doing either. Many many woodlot owners in these parts are not ignorant of the woods business like some people seem to be hung up on in this discussion. This area is not downtown Urbana. ;) Heck, I've seen relatives rip one another off.

For instance, when a landowner gets assistance under the disguise of a woodlot management plan, which he pays nearly nothing for. Then takes the cruise in that plan and a market price list from the marketing board, multiplies the numbers, calls his logger up and proceeds to liquidate his woods. You'll hear whether they actually followed through their plan or not because if they don't get the volumes the cruise indicated (some cruises I've seen were sloppy when we had green graduates starting out) following their woodlot liquidation they call you up mad as a wet hen. Then you ask, where's your management plan. :D Nine out of ten plans were a liquidation in progress I'm afraid. I also refuse to write a plan when the woods were all cut before hand. What's the point of it? Any thinning that needs done will be found by a contractor 9 times out of 10 and doesn't cost the owner anything. "Come fix my woods" is a phrase that comes to mind many times. Most you won't even here from, just the silviculture contractor with a permission slip signed by the owner to thin his woods.

[thecfarm]

I doubt many foresters are on many jobs in this area. I did have my lot cut off with no forester involved.I kinda know the prices and how things should be done and how the woods should look like when all done too.I am very happy with the money and how things look. But I do realize the value of a forester too.I like to see how others cut.I usually will walk the lot that has been cut. The landowners are at fault alot of times.They want it cut,TODAY. A good logger should be busy for 6 months to a year ahead. I've had some ask me for a good logger.I suggest a forester first,but know what they really want.Than I sent them to George who cut mine. He's busy,can't get to them for a year.I told them this to begin with.So they go with someone else that I would not even let them walk on my land,due to the way they cut. Leave a real mess,but they got some money. If they would of waited a year,they probably would of got more money and no where near the mess.