sawdust run engine

[JimMartin9999]

I was at a workshop  on biofuels held at the Big Flats, NY plant experiment station in September.  A guy showed up with an engine which ran on very finely ground sawdust.  He got it running and it ran for about a half an hour.  My guess is that it was about five horse power.
Dumb me.  I didn`t get his name or contact information and didn`t realize the potential of that motor  for off net power production.
I have tried to reach him through   Cornell Extension and have written to the head of the station but so far no contact.
Have any of you ever seen such an engine?
Does anybody know who this guy is?

[fuzzybear]

search through the FEMA website for wood gasification.  They have the complete instructions/diagrams for building these units.  This is not a new technology.  Wood burning engines were the norm on farms in North America during WWII.  There is already a thread about a wood burning truck here.

  Mother Earth News has articles on a wood fired gen set they built as well as a truck.  I'm sure there will be a few members along soon that have built these already. It is one thing I have on the to do list for myself.  The FEMA site is extremely helpful.

[pineywoods]

As far as I know Wood gasifiers don't work on sawdust. They need fist sized chunks of dry wood. I would be very interested in any kind of engine that runs on sawdust. Keep looking, inquiring minds need to know..

[doctorb]

I might suggest writing  PM to Bioman.  He knows lots about alternative fuels and energy production, and he may have some good insight into sawdust as a fuel.  Doctorb

[trim4u2nv]

Diesel, the inventor of the high compression injected engine, intended to run his engine on coal dust.  The ruhr valley was piled high with waste coal dust at the time.  He tried peanut oil which worked better and then kerosene even better.   The first version that ran on coal dust  blew the cylinder head off.  He was also nearly killed with a steam engine that ran on ammonia exploded also.    Maybe you want to step back a few paces from an experimental engine while its running.

[JimMartin9999]

I am still waiting for replys and will pass on info  if I get some.
But  I want to make clear that this engine was not a gasification type: it ran on sawdust and I watched it do so, at a respectable distance till it  had run for a few minutes.

[barbender]

Dry airborne sawdust is definately explosive, I've read of explosions in mills around here back in the day. I suppose they didn't have any air filtration back then, probably dust off of a planer I suppose for it to be dry.

[JSNH]

About two years ago I took a tour of a pellet plant in Jaffrey, NH. They had a gas turbine generator they were about to run on sawdust. They had already done a few test runs but were in the process of finishing the automation. Anyhow the sawdust was really dry and ground to a powder. The dry ground sawdust was put into a pipe the pipe was closed and 120 psi of compressed air was added. The dust and air mixture was injected directly into the gas turbine engine. It turned a generator and the waste heat helped dry the sawdust for the whole plant. It started on diesel than ran on the dust.

[Ianab]

Really fine dust can certainly be explosive. Think belt sander type dust. Throw a handful of that on a rubbish fire, it's like a cup of petrol. (if you do try - start with a small amount - a bucket full will remove your eyebrows.)

Here's some guys with a barrel of sawdust, too much time on their hands, and now, no eyebrows.  :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKPbolpm1oo

So a sawdust powered engine doesn't seem impossible, and I can see how it could work in a gas turbine setup. I'm sure there are some engineering problems that would need to be worked though, but it's not impossible.

Ian

[JimMartin9999]

OK, I got an answer From Big Flats, NY.
Here is the company contact;

http://www.summerhillbiomass.com/about-us

SUMMERHILL BIOMASS SYSTEMS, INC.; 4641 Brookhill Drive., North, Manilus, NY 13104 (US) (All Except US).


I also found a patent application:
Patent application title: POWDERED FUELS, DISPERSIONS THEREOF, AND COMBUSTION DEVICES RELATED THERETO
Inventors:  James K. McKnight  James T. McKnight
Agents:  EDWARDS ANGELL PALMER & DODGE LLP
Assignees:  SUMMERHILL BIOMASS SYSTEMS, INC.
Origin: BOSTON, MA US
IPC8 Class: AF23N100FI
USPC Class: 431 12
Patent application number: 20100055629

http://www.summerhillbiomass.com/about-us

SUMMERHILL BIOMASS SYSTEMS, INC.; 4641 Brookhill Drive., North, Manilus, NY 13104 (US) (All Except US).

Usenet FAQ Index
   

   

Patent application title: POWDERED FUELS, DISPERSIONS THEREOF, AND COMBUSTION DEVICES RELATED THERETO
Inventors:  James K. McKnight  James T. McKnight
Agents:  EDWARDS ANGELL PALMER & DODGE LLP
Assignees:  SUMMERHILL BIOMASS SYSTEMS, INC.
Origin: BOSTON, MA US
IPC8 Class: AF23N100FI
USPC Class: 431 12
Patent application number: 20100055629

Another link:
Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100055629#ixzz17kh3Rg4x

I think some of you  "dirty hands" tinkerers will appreciate what potential this kind of an engine has,  This is the first direct wood to power system I have seen.  Gasification has lots of problems involved.  This kind of  fuel can be blown into a motor with no initial fire building.  It won´t stack/bridge?  If you can grind the wood fine enough and dry it,  I calculate you should be able to drive about 5000 miles.  I plan on using one for an off the grid power generator.

[fishpharmer]

Jim, that's some exciting news.    Should be interesting to watch this develop.  So what would you say about a sawdust car "miles per cord?"

[beenthere]

Great!!

When/where are you going to buy the engine?

We'll be interested to see the rigors of preparing the fuel and keeping the gen plant running.

Soon?

[jpgreen]

Ever heard of "Brown Powder", gun powder? That's what it is, fine sawdust.

[jpgreen]

The big question with wood gassification is how much cost, time, and work will be involved in processing fuel for your particular situation?

That has been a big question of mine, and right now it has not panned out to be very practical it seems for an off grid home and small business situation.

You have to spend countless hours producing fuel the correct shape. There is no commercial chipper that I'm aware of in the US that will produce a good shape wood chip or chunk for woodgas.  Drum chippers produce slivers, that bridge and don't work well at all.  The Chinese import disk chippers are being used by folks over in Berkeley are small, and they have to classify off the small stuff- an extra step.

The only machine I see up to the task, where you could process a sizeable amount of chunk wood is the large Laimet- screw auger type chippers, that are available overseas for $20,000 plus USD not counting shipping.

Now if these folks with their "Wood Flour" system, have an idea on how the small home and business operation could use an (affordable) machine to process the fuel in large enough quantities, quickly enough where you're not spending all your days making fuel- to run an engine to generate off grid power, then maybe this may be a solution.

For now I sit off grid with PV panels and engines generating power for our home and my shop/business surrounded by forest with an abundance of wood bio mass, looking for a solution to get off of petrol fuels.

[pineywoods]

I took the time to wade through all the information. From what I see, it can be done, but not likely be practical. Unless you have a source of very fine dust at little or no cost, The time and effort to make your own would exceed the energy created. Sorta like making your own alky. Still interesting tho.

[JimMartin9999]

Jpgreen, This is not a gasification system.

I grind my grain at home.  Wheat berries are harder than rough saw dust. So a simple grain mill should do.  It can`t be that hard to grind rough wood ships or sawdust fine enough.  From  reading the Forum for a few years, I have seen that some of the members are very inventive at solving mechanical problems.  A rough estimate is that a cord of wood has about the same BTU energy as 160 gallons of oil.  Certainly there is enough energy in a cord to grind that cord and have plenty of surplus energy left over for other uses.

[jpgreen]

Yes- I realize it's not a gassifier system but the the question of processing fuel, or the practicality thereof is key for either of these systems.

[36 coupe]

There are plenty of books on wood gas.When I sold books I got a few copies of a book   that showed how build a gas plant that could run a 5hp engine.

[Jeff]

I spent about 10 years a couple winters ago trying to dry sawdust for a burner.

[jpgreen]

Plenty of time.

You're still young yet Jeff.  You haven't past that 50 hump yet ...  :D

[pineywoods]

I would agree that such a setup would not be very practical because of the fuel preparation expense, grinding and drying would probably consume more energy than would be obtained from burning the fuel in any kind of engine. Still, it would be very interesting to tinker with. A big old slow turning hit and miss engine would make a good test bed. Slow turning, narrow rpm range, making it easier to tweak things. Glow plug ignition would probably work nicely.  I would think that the flame propagation characteristics of burning dust would be considerably slower, high reving  types would probably tend to burn up the exhaust valves and manifold. Then there's the problem of ash. Probably corrode the dickens out of exhaust valves and rings.
Here's some food for thought... figure out a way to run a wood gasifier on sawdust....

[jpgreen]

I've got 2 of these sitting in the shop to get online Piney...








Lister 6/1 Cold Start 650 Rpm max

[jpgreen]

These folks here have really pushed and refined woodgas to new heights for small generation power plants...

http://www.gekgasifier.com/

Still- when I ask the question of what's being used for fuel processing they are woefully behind. So it's like the cart with no horse. Good for tinkering and experimentation, but no practical fuel processing solution for us folks here in the USA.

You need to design a wood processor Piney. I know you could do it. Make your fortune and retire (after you sell me one)... :D

Woodgassers need chunks, and lots of them.

Basic good ol' boy Bubby Woodchunker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djaSTzDKb3k


Neat design from 3rd world (don't mistake your arm for a tree branch):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhcz1fCHeLQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV6ShmGQ4HM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

The woodgas guys at GEK are using this chicom import, but they have to classify off all the small stuff. Very time consuming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfVJzT1gRGg&feature=related

And the Laimet caddillac which is now available in Canada but expensive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aduhT9b4he0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxefpmE_UZA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[Al_Smith]

 A couple of things on this idea which by the way is older than the hills .

When Mother earth news did it they used a Pontiac Tempest engine .It ran but really was hard on the internals of the engine . A certain gent went something like 3000 miles all across Australia using a gas generater but agaiin did the engine in . Neccesity is the mother of invention so during WW2 poor old England which at the time was on empty ran municipal buses using charcoal burner gasifiers .

Prior to WW1 ,Allis Chalmers built huge engines similar to the famous Coreless engines to generate power in the steel mills .This was in the days before widespread electrical transmission and the large users had to make their own . The combustable gas these huge engines ran off was a by product of the smelting of iron for making steel .---trivia 101 ---

[jpgreen]

I really like those english and european ww2 rigs.

Mother Earth also did a chevy truck with a 350, which is real close to design here Paul has done on his truck I believe.

I bought the Mother Earth plans a long time ago, but they sit in the file cabinet.. . ;D


THe day someone gets this wood processing fuel chuck issue resolved, I'm gonna start building gassifiers,.

COME ON PINEY ... :D