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Do you need sills?

Started by ballen, November 04, 2010, 02:13:19 PM

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ballen

I am relocating and converting a barn into a home.  The sills are pretty rotten.  I am considering the pro's and con's of replacing them (with like timbers) or just putting the posts on the new foundation/floor (full basement) without any sills (or with minimal 2x10 type sills).  Would love to learn from your experiences....do I really need timber sills?
Thanks.

witterbound

regular 2x10 or 2x12 sills will be fine.

Jim_Rogers

There are several method to attaching a timber frame to the foundation, which is usually the best thing to do. I know PA is subject to large wind storms that would blow a house off it's foundation, but securing the frame to the foundation is usually required by code.

If there is no code in your area, then you should do it anyway so that you know it's right and safe.

You can build a regular foundation and set a regular standard 2by deck on top of it and then sit your frame on top of the deck. But you'll need to allow some post bottom to hang down below the deck to attach to the rim joist, or have a metal strap embedded in the concrete to come up and be nailed onto the outside surface of the post at lease on the corner posts.

If you do it at least on the corners you should comply with code.

Good luck, Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

laffs

i used 2x8s on my barn. mostly because i didnt put any all thread in the slab and i could use anchor bolts with the 2x8s.
you could just make new sills, either way your going o have to refab something.
Brent
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

ballen

Thanks
Jim,
When you do a new 2x deck and attach to the rim joist, what is the detail?  Do you run the joist into the beam or sit the beam inside of the rim joist? Either way, is the beam sitting directly on the sill?

Raphael

In my additions the posts land on the PT sill and have a 1.5"x ~7.5" rabbet the rim joist to bolts into.
This makes the inspector happy since standard clips (where required) and sill bolt spacing are used.

afraid this is the best picture I have.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

ballen

Thanks Raphael,
It's good to know your way meets strict new england codes!
The bad part is that you loose the thickness of the deck in height off your post.  I need all the post height I can get for my barn conversion.  If I replace the rotted sill beams, and secure the post with a standard stub tennon on top of them, I suspect it would not pass code without some way to strap them together.  Maybe Timberlinx?

Jim_Rogers

When you create a tenon on the bottom of the post you just cut back the decking and install blocking (before you deck it off) like this:



And then you can peg it from the outside or use some screws or bolts:



If you can't do that then do this:



Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

ballen

Hi Jim,
Your way seems to get the most post height.
In the second example, it looks like the whole frame is on pedestals.  Did you do that to get adequate ceiling height?  I have a choice of either modifying my 1850 barn frame by raising some girts or putting the whole thing up on stilts like you show.  Is one approach better than the other?  I am having trouble deciding.
Thanks,
Bill

Jim_Rogers

If you can raise the whole frame and use the original joints instead of cutting new ones, I would think that that would be better overall.

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

ballen

Thanks Jim,

Have you ever done this kind of frame raising (on stilts) with a full basement foundation? That's what I am after and it seems like it might be hard to do in the middle of the floor plan.

Similarly, some of the girts I will be using as second story floor supports are undersized.  They may work if I put in a bunch of new braces however I suspect I will have to replace them with larger beams.  Can I use the original smaller mortice holes in the posts for the new larger beams or should I open up the mortices to match the new larger beams?

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: ballen on November 08, 2010, 01:22:16 PM
Have you ever done this kind of frame raising (on stilts) with a full basement foundation?

No I haven't.

Quote
Can I use the original smaller mortise holes in the posts for the new larger beams or should I open up the mortises to match the new larger beams?

That's a tough call, but I would say if you're inserting larger beams then the tenons should match that beam.

If you made the new beam with a smaller tenon then it could crack at the point where the smaller tenon enters the bigger timber.
Your overall design may have to be reviewed by someone to insure that your loads are properly supported all the way to the foundation.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

ballen

Yes, Jim....I'm looking for a professional engineer and timber grader now.  If anyone can recommend professionals near NE PA to review my plans, please let me know.
Thanks

Jim_Rogers

I'm not sure if PA falls into the territory cover by NELMA (New England Lumber Man's Association) or not, but they are the graders for my area.

I have hired them in the past to come here and grade timbers for a barn. These timbers that they did grade, at that time, were recycled timbers. However a couple of years later the grader gave a talk at TTRAG when we were in Durham, NH and he said to that group there and then that they (NELMA) would never grade used timbers again, as they don't know what kind of stresses these timbers have been under over the years. And they can't just assume that they are ok by looking at them.

I don't know if other grading agencies will grade recycled timber or not, you'll have to do some research on that.

As far as finding an engineer for your area who is experienced in timber frame construction, you can go to the guild site, click on the "resource guide" link and follow that to the resource guide page. And you'll find all the engineering companies who are listed with the TFBC (Timber framers business council). You'll have to check each one's area of license to find one for PA.
Also, there is the TFEC site (Timber Framers Engineer Council) where I believe there is a map and you click on a state and they provide a list of companies licensed in that state.
I think you can find a link to the TFEC site at the TFBC page.

Good luck with your search.

Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

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