Log Grades

[Autocar]

I sold 6500 feet of white oak butt logs this morning, the first butt was 12 feet and had 330 board feet in it I asked the buyer what the price was on that log. He told me $950 a thousand I asked what happened to the buck forty he says it has defects. I was *pithed Defects, yep it has a few pin kotts I stomp over to my pickup and get my axe and slip the top of the bark off and the swirl was about as big as a eight penny nail. Some times I wonder what it is all about , the $1.40 log must be veneer the only thing I can figure  :D I use to look forward to sale day but the last couple of years it sure has changed. Well thanks for listening I feel better !  ;D

[beenthere]

I think I almost followed what I am guessing you were saying. 

[doctorb]

I, on the other hand, incompletely gleaned the conclusions that were intended.   Prof. Erwin Cory

[Maine372]

i understood that explicitly.

[SwampDonkey]

Oh well, I've seen a few feet of maple birds eye go to the grinder because of heart size. When they pay those dollars they want perfect logs. These trees were over 40" at dbh and was never logged because they were in an old town water supply area. The town has used wells for years before the trees were cut. There were lots of red spruce over 30 inches on the but that would have made veneer. Couldn't seem to get into that market. Seed was collected off the tops and stored at the seed centre and Tree Improvement Council.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Same sob story I hear daily at the mill. "That should have been veneer and its at least a grade 1 yada yada". I always say if you think you can do a better job grading and marketing your own logs then be my guest. That usually tends to hush people up.

[Okrafarmer]

$950/1,000 is still a very lucrative price, seeing how many sawmillers on here can't seem to sell their rough cut lumber for even that much. If I take oak to the mill, I get $300/1000. If I take it to the logyard, I get $200/1000. Needless to say, I don't take it very much. I wish I had a veneer buyer nearby, I'm not aware of one. People don't seem to think in terms of veneer in my area. If I could get $950/1000 for the best oak logs around here, I could make a killing.

[treefarmer87]

wish our market in va was like that white oak is $285/ 1000. everyone says down here in SC hardwood is hard to sell

[Okrafarmer]

wish our market in va was like that white oak is $285/ 1000. everyone says down here in SC hardwood is hard to sell

I guess it's because the supply is so huge here.

[laffs]

i just picked up a spec sheet the other day AAA red oak is 1300/1000
AA hard maple is 2500/1000
birch is 2550/1000
this is just some of the reasons a small mill cant make it up here. good for cutters and lot owners.

[Autocar]

It amazes me how different log prices can be in other areas. They always told me north of the Ohio river logs grow slower and cut pretty good. I didn't start this thread to get people all fired up. I guess I am spoiled with some of the connections I have now, which has taken years to get. Iam a small producer working by myself I am the buyer,the cutter, skidder operator and truck driver and when thats done the machanic and all around repairman. Then the salesman, I'am sure alot of you guys fit this same mold,goodluck with all your adventures Bill

[woodmills1]

It does seem that you know what you were selling and should have got more

best I have been paid for oak is $615/M dont forget I am selling yard trees to a concentration yard, so veneer isn't even on the list

If I had a whole load of real nice I would drive a little farther to HHP and get a little more


so I sell the best and keep most of the number ones and down and get $1500/M of the mill for trailer deck and boy some of it is DanG furniture wood

[Okrafarmer]

It amazes me how different log prices can be in other areas. They always told me north of the Ohio river logs grow slower and cut pretty good.

I'm going to have to start a company trucking it to the north-- or maybe barges up the coast or something.

[SwampDonkey]

Well, you might laugh Okra, but Miller Veneers in Indiana was trucking veneer out of our marketing board wood yard from $2500-5500 a thousand.  Maple and Yellow birch. : Now, I've drove down to Jeff's place in Harrison, Mi and that's 1200 miles one way.

I'm guessing Autocar has the same buyers as we do, Columbia Forest Products is our biggest buyer and sends a man around to gather it up as far away as NS and Quebec.



Back in 2005, this little 'puckle' of wood fetched $1100 and none of those logs are larger than 16" on the small end, but at least 12" on small end, 8'-6" in length.

Marketing Board Wood Yard

[Ron Wenrich]

Veneer prices have slipped in the past few years, especially red oak.  Veneer buyers are a lot pickier because they can be.  White oak always seems the toughest to sell due to those bud knots on the bole.  Its a defect in lumber and in veneer.  They're hard to see, so you better look the trees over before you buy them.

We've been selling veneer for over 50 years.  Its been going on for 2 generations, and they know what to look for, and they know their markets.  I've seen buyers come into the yard from all over.  Right now we have a German buyer who stops by.  There used to be one from Italy, and we've had some come in from China.  If you want to see someone really examine logs, get a Chinese buyer in.  A buyer from Ohio was sending logs to China and Vietnam. 

But, I also see veneer buyers come and go a lot quicker than I do sawmills.  Those high prices may get some veneer, but they don't seem to stay in the market for more than a couple of years.  Then, they get knocked out by some economic problem.  I believe they end up buying at too high of a price when the market makes an adjustment.  They tend to get sloppy in their grading.  Then, they're broke.

The few independent veneer buyers that are steady are ones that don't pay the highest price and require a pretty good log. 

Mill grade and prices are largely dependent on yield.  Just because it looks good on the outside doesn't mean its good on the inside.  A grade 1 in red oak will yield a lot more uppers than a grade 1 in white oak.  Saw enough of them and you'll see what I mean.  It has to do with the pruning ability of the tree. 

[Okrafarmer]

Around here a huge percentage of the oaks (of any species) are nowhere near round in cross section, so I guess those are automatically disqualified. They still make decent saw logs. The walnuts, cherries, and tulip poplar are often very round though, and should make good veneer. Maybe there are some more threads about veneer selling around here I can look at.

[Ron Wenrich]

Depends on the veneering process.  Weyerhauser had a mill that used to run on an eccentric and would take veneer off on 3 sides.  It has closed.  That allowed them to buy a veneer log with defect and cut around the defect.  And, many mills slice the logs instead of rolling it off in sheets. 

There are many different things that go into a veneer log.  One is how clean a log is.  Another factor may be the spacing of the rings.  Too far apart will kick it out, since it doesn't have a very good grain pattern. 

Unseen factors may include glass worm.  They wet the end of the log down to bring up the worms.  If white oak is growing among pine, it has a higher probability of worm.  If heart check is to severe, they may kick it out.  Any whiff of shake and it stays.  There can be no mineral.  Those you won't see in a standing tree, and some of them you may not really notice in a log.  The veneer buyer notices them right away. 

[SwampDonkey]

Oops forgot the image tags. Too early in the mornin'. ;D

[woodsy]

Veneer logs are such a love/hate relationship.  You're either going to love the prices or goina' hate them and most of the time it's more of a crap shoot than anything else.  There are just too many factors at play other than round logs with no visible or readily apparent defects.  Good veneer buyers are trained to see those seemingly undetectable defects which at times seem so meaningless. But as it was explained to me from a 40 year veneer veteran, they're looking for exactly what their looking for and nothing less.   

Prices for top grade AAA veneer logs are rarely achieved, at least in my experience.  It takes such a special log.  One of my log suppliers just cut 40mbf of cherry and while there were several veneer logs, only 1 log made the top AAA $5 grade.

I recently looked at some nice 24-30" diameter cherry that was clear and creamy.  It was really nice stuff and I was willing to pay $2 a bf plus transport and was turned down. The logger wouldn't sell.  He assured me he was going to get $3/bf. The load of logs went out and he was only paid $1.10/bf delivered.  I know this because he made a delivery to me later in the week for some other logs and confessed. We got a good chuckle out of that.

When it comes time to different prices in different regions, there are areas in my neck of the woods where it's difficult to get a veneer buyer to come out and look at prospective logs because of mineral stain history in a particular region!