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New Champion Black Ash?

Started by Clark, September 23, 2010, 03:32:44 PM

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Clark

This last week I was doing some common stand exam (CSE) work on the Chippewa National Forest in north central MN. 

<rant>

By and large this contract has consisted of poorly managed timber that is way past it's prime.  Balsam fir that is largely horizontal, aspen with more fruiting bodies than a mushroom farm, stand delineation done by the state school for the blind, the list goes on; my patience for the FS doesn't.

<end rant>

I was quite surprised the other day when I arrived at the first plot of a new stand to find a nice healthy stand of large black ash.  Most of it was 16-22" dbh, from all outward appearances several had veneer quality logs in them.  It was well stocked and the trees had grown decently tall, my site tree was 104' tall.  At this point I picked up my jaw from the forest floor and started looking around.  Only then did I realize that the tree next to it was significantly taller.  There were several more that did better than 100' tall but the site tree's neighbor was certainly the tallest tree in the stand.   Plug the tape into it and back out to 100' to get a good view of the top, through the clinometer I read 109' for the top and 6' for the bottom making it 115' tall!!!

I was thinking that I might have a new state champion black ash.  After all, how many black ash grow taller than 100'?  I hadn't seen one before so I thought I had a chance.  Long story short is that this tree was a bit skinny (20" dbh) and being forest grown lacked the crown that is usually necessary for a champion tree.  Nonetheless an impressive tree.

With the impending EAB I can file this tree away in my memory.  Probably never see or have the opportunity to see one this big again.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Gary_C

That's interesting. There is some very nice Black Ash in the north central part of Minnesota. I had one small state sale east of Mille Lacs Lake some years ago that I gave up on because the Black Ash markets had gone away and it was a very wet site.

Was this tree not on the Leech Lake Indian Reservation?
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

barbender

You found poorly managed timber on the Chippewa?? I don't believe it  :D ::)
Too many irons in the fire

Clark

Quote from: Gary_C on September 23, 2010, 04:28:56 PMWas this tree not on the Leech Lake Indian Reservation?

I don't think so.  It was several miles outside of Marcell which I think is outside the Leech Lake reservation.

Tough to believe isn't it, barbender?  Despite having some of the best ground in northern MN (especially north of Deer River and Grand Rapids) they seem to fall short of even trying.  It gets depressing working there. 

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

barbender

Leech Lake Resevation runs east to Deer River and then straight north up hwy 6 to Bowstring. So, yes, Marcell is outside the Reservation.  Get out around Big Winnie, there are so many pine plantations long past due for thinning. We were out between Black River Falls and Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin, a couple weeks back picking up my mill, and I couldn't believe the pine in those county forests down there. In the first place, I was surprised to find all that pine country that far south, and the difference in management. Those stands were beautiful, well thinned. Minimal brush underneath too. It looked like a park.
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

Clark, where exactly was this ash at up there, if you don't mind me asking? Something else curious, I was looking at an old USDA tree species book and it showed a little outlier of Bitternut Hickory, looked like it should be in my backyard by the map. I did some searching today on the net, and found an old article (1926) where the author described an adventure looking for Bitternut, they found a nice stand on a point on the north side of Big Winnie. I would like to go out and see if any of those are still out there. You ever see any around here?
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

Quote from: Clark on September 23, 2010, 08:28:07 PM
  It was several miles outside of Marcell which I think is outside the Leech Lake reservation.


That's a good place to know your boundaries or you could wind up like those three hikers on the Iranian border. You could be worth a lot of money to the tribe.  :D :D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

barbender

I know the boundries pretty well Gary, my reservation hunting licenses weren't any good if I left the reservation. ;) BTW, Leech Lake is an "open" reservation unlike Red Lake or Nett Lake Reservations. That means anyone can hunt, fish,  own land, etc. Basically the only practical difference is that Band members have their own hunting, fishing, and trapping seasons and regulations. The tribe only owns, I would guess, 1% of the land inside the reservation, if that. Besides, they don't need to kidnap you for ransom, they just get you in one of the casinos :D :D
Too many irons in the fire

Clark

The exact location of that black ash would be here:

47° 36' 2.2"
93° 40' 30.3"

From Marcell head north and take the first road going east once you are past the FS information.  Travel about one mile east and there will be a snowmobile trail traveling north into some younger aspen.  Follow that trail to the above coordinates which are ~50 yards off the trail.

It's interesting that you mention bitternut hickory.  I've never found any in northern MN, despite having done a heap of CSE work in the Chippewa and growing up hunting and fishing there.  I've heard whispers that there could be some in the Chippewa.  You might try calling a FS botanist and seeing if they know of any.  If anyone who works on the Chip would know about it, it would be a botanist.

I have a hunch that like Butternut, Bitternut could do very well if planted as a yard tree in your neck of the woods.  The farthest north I've ever heard of bitternut growing (up until now) is found here:

http://www.myminnesotawoods.umn.edu/discuss/tree-plant-id/Hickory-in-Minnesota/

I don't suppose you'd mind divulging where the 1926 sighting of Bitternut was?  My family owns land on Dixon lake (up the Third River flowage from Winnie) so it would be pretty neat to find some bitternut around there.

Clark

SAF Certified Forester

barbender

It said on a point on the north side of Winnie. I will do some searching and maybe talk to a botanist.  I did run into a Butternut one time in the woods behind the new Grand Rapids hospital. It is on the bike trail back there that we were paving. I asked my foreman what it was, he said "Don't you know what balmy is?" I asked him why it had leaves like an ash then. So from as near as we could tell it was a butternut. You must have been pretty near Turtle Lake where you found that big ash, it seems that some of our larger lakes have a bit of a micro climate effect, there sure are nice hardwoods all around Pokegama Lake (except for all the Red Oak that died :()
Too many irons in the fire

jtbartlett

47° 36' 2.2"n 93° 40' 30.3" w Ypu can plug coordinates into Google Earth.

SwampDonkey

That would be a rare find for sure. Black ash doesn't usually get very tall or big in girth around here. Maybe find one once in awhile 16" and 65 feet tall around here. Most of them seem to die off way before that and are very slow growing. I had a small stand of them, but after surrounding woods were harvested beavers moved in and flooded them out. They were 55 feet tall or so and maybe 10" dbh. All they were good for around here was baskets and pulpwood. Don't use them for tool handles like the white ash. Dad used to cut 2" diameter saplings to repair barrel hoops. Just split them down the middle with a draw knife. I don't know if that old fart even remembers that now, he seems to forget about farming. Done it for over 40 years, don't want to remember. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

We actually get a lot of large black ash in these parts. Back 20 years ago or whenever it was that the overseas veneer market was good a lot of Black Ash went for veneer logs. I talked to a fella that said a veneer buyer cut his stand of Black Ash, it was around 30-40 trees if I remember right, he said he got $10,000 for the stumpage :o
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

Sounds like his memory got fogged up. Black ash is very light wood when dry, like aspen and American elm and the quality and size isn't there like in the white ashes. Even when you read the USDA descriptions I can't see there being much volume of quality and size. From what they describe it fits what we see here. Besides that the range is mostly limited to the northern extend of hardwoods compared to white. Can't rule out a few exceptional ones, but not whole stands and large tracts. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Clark

It was definitely an exceptional site Donk.  Most of the ash growing "where is should" is more like what you describe, fairly small diameter, tops out at 50 or 60 feet and lousy form.  Often enough it will grow on the higher ground, if we did PCT like you guys in the Maritimes do I think they could easily push some of the aspen stands towards a nice mix of aspen and ash.  In fact, you could probably get some really high quality black and green ash out of that.

The nicest quality black ash is found on the higher sites here or more specifically, right at that interface between higher and lower ground.  This particular grove of trees was between two smaller rises in the land.  During a wet year black ash is all that could grow on this ground, during a dry year the black ash probably did very well.

That does sound like a heap of money for ash barbender but then again, it only takes one honest buyer who has the right market to drive up the price of high quality trees.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

barbender

I never saw any reciepts, it was just this fella's story. But I know him to be honest. My memory may be fogged alittle as far as number of trees and dollars, and it could have been green ash as well. All I remember for sure was it was a handful of ash trees for many thousands of dollars. He also told me the buyer cut the wood personally, they didn't cut a felling notch in the tree as they didn't want any wood going to waste. I thought he said the trees were cut right as close to ground level as possible, the point was they didn't want any wood wasted.
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

I am not surprised that a good stand of Black Ash brought a premiun price some years ago. There was a very strong demand for good quality Black Ash from the furniture makers for use as caneing and from the basket weaving people. I don't know of any wood that can be hand split into those strips for baskets and chair seats as well as Black Ash. I think the thing that killed the prices was changing furniture styles. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

barbender

I just happened to run into this fella today (that had the high dollar wood I posted about earlier), I probably haven't spoken to him in 4 years or so.  With this subject fresh on my mind, after the usual "long time no see" I asked him "hey, remember those ash trees you told me about selling?" Well, yes, he did. Without a moments hesitation he replied "28 trees, $11,500" :o :o He said they were exceptional, some over 220 years old and well over 30" dbh. Black ash, not green or white, and they went for veneer. The buyer/logger told him they were the largest Black Ash he had ever seen or cut. I wrote all this down as soon as I got done speaking with him so I could accurately transmit the info to the Forestry Forum ;D
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

Well that certainly is amazing. They sure were old for black ash. I never heard tell of anyone buying ash for veneer and have never even seen anything made from ash veneer, let alone black ash. Not that it means a whole lot. Lots of stuff I've not seen. ;) I wonder if the market dried up, or maybe the supply since it would not be all the common to find those size black ash. I think the tallest in Canada was a 90 foot one, according to "Native Trees of Canada" and in the "Textbook of Dendrology" they say 108 feet and 5 foot dbh was the largest. I've never seen one even close to that. The champion as of the writing of the text (1979) was 87 feet tall with 4' - 9 and 3/8" dbh.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

 I've never understood that either, I've never seen anything made with black ash veneer, but there was definately a market for it up here back then. I've heard it went to Asia, what they did with it I don't have a clue. For instance, I know an old fella that had a small sawmill operation, a veneer buyer set up a log yard at his mill for staging his wood. This was fairly common from what I understand, but it has all disappeared. I don't even know where you could sell a veneer log up here now, even nice saw logs are hard to find a home for. There is one hardwood sawmill I have delivered to about 100 miles from here, otherwise it is just a pallet log market.
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

Here is what they were doing with that black ash veneer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F71mCc7xAr0&feature=player_embedded

Back about ten years ago they were buying a lot of that black ash veneer and exporting it to some third world country where they were making baskets and caine bottomed chairs. Then tastes changed and the market for black ash fell apart.

Reason I know this is because about five years ago I had a DNR sale with some nice black ash veneer logs and the markets were just starting to decline. But the site was so wet that I could not get in there with frozen ground and for a number of winters it was too warm to freeze and I had to let the sale go back.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

I can't really view that video on dial up. But baskets where made here from black ash, the only ash they used. Every potato farmer had baskets or where just starting to go all mechanical. My father always had a harvester since just before I was born, one of the first. But the way the baskets were made, and a small handful still make them, is the green black ash logs are pounded. This loosens the fibres between early wood and late wood, which are then peeled off the log with a draw knife or axe into long splints. The larger market for baskets dried up pretty much as the farmers have harvester equipment now. And the days of field potato pickers is pretty much over. I started picking taters when I was 7 years old. ;D The natives will still make a few back packs from ash and baskets to. This work was all done on local Indian reservations around here and in Maine. As a kid, I remember them pounding ash all the time for baskets. This was a great past time. Hardly any of them had cars, they mostly walked to town.

Gary you sure your video isn't of a Native Indian? As I say, I can't load it here.

I'm thinking the market was domestic and not Asian at all. That market just simply died or has dwindled and the biggest buyers went mechanical. You could get a native basket made, but it's a long wait. My uncle has had them made in late years, he has connections. ;)


Anytime in summer when out working the nearby fields or as kid outside playing you could here them pound black ash.

Here is one video here.

http://www.youtube.com/v/I58hcMWnB_0

And a website: http://www.abenakibaskets.com
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

That's an interesting video, Gary. I still don't understand though, why would it really be beneficial for that type of work to use big veneer logs? That guy looked like he got what he needed from that 10" black ash. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, all my info is second hand. I've never sold an ash log for anything myself.
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

Even small knots would spoil a peeled strip. So the best yield would be from clear logs. Size does not make a big difference.

And from what I know, sawing strips will not work because you cannot follow the rings. So it's all done by hand labor. That's why they were exporting those veneer logs to third world countries. For the cheap labor to hand peel the strips.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

I wouldn't know why they would export them for the labour unless there were a few business ventures trying it. All ours were made locally, and they were/are not cheap.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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