grapple saw on a forwarder

[Randy88]

Has anyone put a grapple saw on an older forwarder before, like an iron mule or an older timberjack.   Was it helpfull as far as cutting up something that was too heavy or long for the boom to lift.   I cut a  lot of firewood logs and am thinking about a forwarder to help haul them out and load my trucks, right now I don't have a boom mounted loader we use a skid loader and was wondering if a grapple saw was helpfull to cut stuff up that was too heavy or cumbersome to load up.    My wife is wanting somthing to help out where she doesn't have to get out all the time to start up a chainsaw to knock off an odd limb here and there all the time.   I put her in a forwarder a couple months ago at a used equipment dealer and she liked running it and asked if that had a saw on the end she'd basically not have to get out and could do it all from the seat of the machine.  I told her I'd never thought of that before and would think about it a while, I know they are expensive but so is help and if it would work I'd keep my current help [wife] happy, the forwarder idea kinda fits for what I'm doing, she could pick up the logs and go load trucks and shuttle back and fourth in the safety of a cab and maybe even someday haul out tops and feed a chipper is what we are thinking for in the future.    Any thoughts or advise would be appreciated.

[Gary_C]

No, but then I have a harvester that has a cutting head for that type of work. And I would not want that extra weight and hydraulic connections on my grapple on the forwarder. However I do many times abuse a log to mechanically bust a limb off a log that was missed when cutting or was too big for the harvester to knock off. That usually works best in softwoods and aspen. In most hardwoods, the bigger limbs are too tough to break easily and only if the log is valuable will I grab the limb and saw it off with the harvester. And that is a good method to get the bar caught, bent like a pretzel, and let the bad words come out.  ;D

[Maine372]

you may run into hydraulic flow issues. pressures and GPMs. i think i would start asking questions of the dealer or manufacturer. if it works post some pics!

[snowstorm]

i saw one once must have been back in the early 80"s it was on a 120 prentice. one of the first 120"s had 110 frame 150 boom. seems like the saw was an add on to the prentice bucket. i didnt see it work.........might have been called little jon...sumping like that. i wouldnt think that the 25gpm that the fowarder would flow would be enough

[Randy88]

The dealer we were at said it has been done and he's seen them but knew nothing about how and couldn't remember where or who had done it.    It was just an idea my wife came up with and was wondering if it had actually been done and would work, I thought it would forever be pinching the bar myself but I'd never run one so I didin't know, as for the hydrualics that wouldn't be a problem I'd just add a pump and tank and put a complete different system on to run the saw, I know how to do that but wasn't sure the idea woulld work at all or how much weight it would add and that would hinder the lift capacity of the loader. 

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to eliminate all the hand chain sawing to cut firewood logs out, I've looked at harvesters and theres no way I could make them work for the wood I"m in, all the crooked and limby things that only make firewood, we've looked at saws that are on say a bell harvester but they don't really have the reach I wanted.   Theres someone out there who's done what I want to do without breaking the bank I just haven't figured out where or how yet, my crew is getting tired of running chainsaws all day long and they want a simplier solution, they are discussing the idea of he who buys the chainsaw can run it kinda thing, I told them I'd investigate different ideas,  thanks for the replies.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Randy there was thinning program they had down here in the 80s and 90s where they where trialing thinning in mouutain ash country for small sawlog and pulp log and one of their trials consisted of a manual fallers falling and limbing the trees then an Osa master 6x6 forwarder with a bolt on cutoff saw with a 30" bar would come along and pull the tree into the extraction zone 16' to 20' at a time docking and loading its self i think they where getting about 4 semi loads a day out Mate

Ill try and dig out the info on the machine  for you as i think i still have the details and info on the machine setup in one of my industry mags i have here Mate

Regards Chris

[oldseabee]

You mentioned a Bell Harvester not having reach. Was that a feller buncher or the th120 harvester. a link to a picture of a th120 with a SP FX550 head, scroll down.
http://www.ett.co.za/forestry.htm

[Randy88]

Oldseabee, I've never seen anthing like that before, I've seen a video of a feller bucher type bell work but never in person,  I've watched in person some of the rubber wheeled harvesters work and from what I saw and talked to the operators of they just won't do what we need done and those guys recommended a feller bucher on tracks with an intermittent head, never seen any of those up close at all and from the videos I watched those guys were taking down nice looking trees not what I work with and most just cut stuff down and maybe knock off an occasional limb or two.   

I've been thinking of a tracked feller buncher with an intermittent head and cut them down and spend the time to attempt to cut them up so all we'd need to do is use a forwarder to load up the stuff and haul it away but will it work, is the head manuverable enough to cut up junk trees and take out the firwood logs or will they basically just knock them down and thats about it.   My crew even came up with the idea of a dangle head saw on an excavator to cut stuff up and throw the better stuff aside, they got the idea from watching the 3 wheeled bells work from videos and basically taking the head off one of those and putting it on an excavator, and then a grapple saw idea on a forwarder, told them I don't know maybe we'll ask some that might.   Thanks for the replies, don't hessitate to tell me I'm crazy and why, its cheaper to ask for advice than spend mega amounts of money on equipment that won't work for what I need to do.

[oldseabee]

The SP FX 550 head can be set to cut to length by computer in the cab, rollers pull the tree through and stop/cut whatever you set.
This head might have trouble with real crooked logs or cutting a section out of a crappy tree. The tf120 is basically the same machine except with a dangle head like the 3 wheeler, that head will cut the tree then you can lay the head down on the log, lift it and cut it off, drag the log and get a new bite for another cut off, you could cut a section out of a bad log. Bell doesn't sell these any more in the US, but there are used ones around. I did work for Bell a few years ago and have some tech info if you are interested.

[snowstorm]

how big and rough is the wood your cutting?? i have a 150 keto it will surprise you what it will limb. the quadco website has some vids the big keto shows taking off a 10" oak limb

[Randy88]

Big, rough and ugly,all hardwood anywhere from small elm and boxelder to large dead elms and burroaks up to 5 ft in diameter, now I know nothing will do everything but even on the largest trees I'd like to be able to cut up some of the limbs for firewood logs, they range from three feet long to over twenty feet long and most are in the 10 inch to 24 inch size, I don't worry about anything less than 10 inches but do get to almost 5 ft and those we cut up with chainsaws.   

What I'm wanting in a perfect world is something that can take down and cut up 75% of what I've got to do, right now its all by chainsaw and we haul it out by the semi load and block it up and split it later when we have time.    Most all my firwood logs are about 8 ft long or less and crooked as can be.   Any head with the rollers on are out as far as I can see and the hot saw heads are only good for take down or thats what the guys running processors told me anyhow.   I know most just do it with chainsaws but we have a lot of work to do and the time factor and speed is getting to be an issue, I could run a machine all day long and get many times more done than two running chainsaws and with a lot less exhaustion of the body day after day and since my help consists of mainly my wife and myself we need to become more efficient or as she tells me find someone else to help I'm not doing it much longer as is, which did get my attention.   I'm just thinking theres got to be a less back breaking way and to also speed this up considerably, as far as help, forget it, I've been there done that and its not worth the headache of depending on someone only to have them pull a no show or maybe tomorrow kinda thing.    I'd rather spend some money and buy something and fix it and make payments than deal with help or nonhelp however you look at it.

At first we discussed something that would almost eliminate her running a chainsaw and thats where the idea of the grapple saw came into play and then we discussed her not having to do anything but pick up logs with a forwarder and I'd do all the cutting with an excavator with a dangle head, do what worked and I'd do the rest with a chainsaw, we've also talked about a tracked feller bucher with a intemittent head and I'd run that and and what didn't work for cut up I'd do with a chainsaw but I didn't know if I'd end up doing 90% with a chainsaw that way as well.    We ruled out a processor or harvester with the roller heads because they wouldn't really grip or roll through what we have to do from what I've seen and who I talked to, so here we are, still running chainsaws and telling each other theres got to be a better easier way and she said suck up your pride admit we're stupid and ask questions from some that should know what works and what doesn't. 

[snowstorm]

just looked on quadco site they have a grapple saw.....mite be just what you are looking for

[CuddleBugFirewood]

I would recommend calling Ron at Woodland Equipment in Iron River, michigan.  do a google search and their website and phone number will come up.  We were looking at doing something like you are talking about, but elected to buy a log loader for now and just buy pulpwood from the loggers instead of trying to log it ourselves.   My firewood venture is part-time, and I do not have the time to both log and cut firewood. 

He was a great salesmen, very patient and kind, and answered all of my questions.  He has lots of experience in the ctl field and knows some guys that have put grapple saws on their forwarders.  He ballparked the grapple saws around 15 - 20k I think, so they are not cheap.  He said the guys that put them on the forwarders really like them, but he has only had two people do it.

Good luck in your research.   

[mad murdock]

would your work dynamics/typical tree profile benefit from using just a grapple skidder and a truck mounted loader/slasher? you could have a conveyor set up off the slasher to move the firewood chucks to a truck, or feed them to a processor(splitter)?  putting together a machine to cut to firewood length in the woods seems like a difficult proposition to me, easier to move wood in the largest chunks possible until you get to a place where you can cut it up and load on a truck, preferably by machine, as loading firewood by hand is slow, andit is plain tedious, not to mention the work out you get from it! Just thinking out loud.

[Randy88]

Right now we don't cut to length firewood in the woods, all we do is cut the logs out as long as possible and load them with a skidsteer onto my end dump trailer and haul them home and dump them out to be piled up later and in the winter and off season or when things get slow we buck them up and split them then.   I'm thinking all the chainsawing to even get log length stuff, there has to be a faster way than just running a chainsaw by hand.  Now I like the idea of a forwarder where we could load the logs in the woods with and haul them to the road and offload them into my trailer and then use it again to restack the logs at home and I'm wanting to get a firewood processor and feed that with the forwarder as well.   A skidder even a grapple skidder would only haul them out of the woods and I'd rather load them on a forwarder because most of what we do we end up going through creeks and pastures and most times its a longer haul than I'd like to do with a skidder, also I like the idea of loading it on a forwarder to keep as much dirt and mud off them as possible, now it might be just me but it seems a forwarder doesn't tear up the landscape as much as a skidder as far as hauling the stuff vs. dragging it but that might just be my own way of thinking.   

Cuddlebug firewood, thanks for the info I'll google it and give them a call and investigate further, does anyone know of someone who runs a track feller bucher with an intermittent head on it who could answer questions on how they work or don't work or maybe go and watch it work?   Thanks for the time you've taken to reply and help out.

[Stephen Alford]

 

    Here on the island about 47% of the homes have wood burning capability.  Sales are pretty much linked to the price of other sources of energy and vary accordingly.  Block length varies from 10" to 24" so wood for the most part is blocked  to length after an order is received.  Just curious  how block length affects  the amount and timing  for your  processing ?   ???

[hillsidevt]

I like the forwarder + grapple saw idea. Been thinking about it for awhile myself. Maybe a Hultdins head???

The link below is a good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdP4EAaaLv8

[Gary_C]

The best advise I could give you after hearing what you are trying to do is to NOT let your search for the ultimate machine stop you from making the next best step. And as you mentioned earlier, that step is to get a good forwarder and put it to work picking up logs and loading and unloading trucks. You will never go back to using a skid loader in the woods and it will save a lot of time and will not tear up the woods.

And once you start using a forwarder, you will probably keep it so busy that it will not have time to do any cutting anyway. Then you can look towards helping your cutting operation and that is not done as easily.

I'm not sure what you mean by an intermittent head. I have run two brands of rubber tired cut to length machines and one feller buncher. The CTL machines both have dangle heads and I have cut some big hardwood trees along with a lot of pulpwood, both hardwood and softwood with both machines. The other type of head I am familiar with is a fixed head machine and you can get those on either a rubber tired or tracked machine with or without a boom. But even if you get a very high horsepower machine and that probably will be a large tracked machine like a Timbco, it will have difficulty cutting and processing big and ugly hardwoods. The cutting down is the easy part and the processing is much more difficult. Even if you can get the processing done, it will be hard on the machine. And I can process some large trees with that dangle head that I cannot grip in the head by just leaving them on the ground and running the head up the trunk and cutting lengths.

So the next thing to speed up your operation would be to get some type of feller buncher. And there are any number of tracked ones that can cut and out muscle some pretty good sized hardwoods. And just getting them on the ground quickly and safely is a big time saver.

Then as far as delimbing and processing, I do some of that with my dangle head machine. But I don't like to as it slows down the processing on a job where I have from 200 to 1000 cords to process. But it can be done though it is sometimes not pretty and rather slow. And another thing is that most of the jobs I do don't have a lot of short limby hardwoods to deal with on a regular basis.

[deutz4]

In response to cuddlebug's reference to woodland equip. We were looking at buying a forwarder about 4 yrs. ago and they tried pushing a grapple mounted saw Ponnse on us. One look at it and I knew it would spend most of it's life not working. I've spent 35 years running forwarders so I can spot bad ideas a mile away. You have to keep in mind that firewood is the lowest profit piece of the tree. It is the crookedist, smallist, limbiest piece of wood in the tree. Now you probably will haul it in the most unprofitable load configuration out there, (1 cord, 3,5,10,). Older forwarders don't have the oil capacity to run one of these things efficiently to begin with. Spend your money on making your high profit areas more cost effective and maybe later you can buy goofy things and not jeopardize your business at the same time.

[Randy88]

Gary_C the way it was explained to me was a hot saw head the disc runs all the time and is stationary and I've watched those run and they do an excellent job of take down, an intermittent head the disc runs only when you engage it and otherwise its stopped, when its stopped it reatracts and is out of the way to grab a tree and then engage the disc and it starts up and swings out to cut the tree off, quadco makes one like that and several others make them on a slide box design that as the disc starts up it slides out and cuts the tree off.   Now I've never seen one of those work but it stands to reason I could grapple a tree and move it around and grab it and cut another llimb off and use the head to move and shuffle the logs around and thats how it was explained to me but again I've never seen one work.    I've also never seen a bar saw head work on a tracked feller buncher either so I have no idea if they would do the same thing.

To respond to deutz 4, I do make my money elsewhere and am geared towards that but it isn't logging so to speak, its with heavy equipment, I'm trying to get this work done faster than by running chainsaws so I have more time to spend where I do make money, this isn't anything that will turn me a buck by itself, but it'll save me enough time to turn a profit where I do make money and thats why the speed and ease is such a big deal for me, along with keeping my helper happy [wife]. 

We've been having the same discussion now for years as to what and how to do it differently and wondering if this type of work will end, we keep thinking this is the last job like we'll ever have like it so why invest the time and money to find a different way to do it, but there always seems to be the next job over the horizon and it never ends.   I should have inveseted in something years ago and it would have paid for itself many times over already in time savings alone but you know how that goes the money saved got spent elsewhere and we're still doing things the hardest most time consuming way possible.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and make suggestions and hillsidevt, the video was really nice, I"d never seen anything like it before ever, a video explains more that all the words ever could, that and I'm not the only one at least thinking of it, makes me feel a little better someone out there has done it and others are thinking, so maybe I'm not completely off out there in my reasoning.   Stephen Alford, right now we only do about one length and its mainly for ourselves so the different lengths isn't really an issue so far for me.   

[Meadows Miller]

Gday again

It was a Hultdins Head like the one in the clip Mate Im not sure how thay had it hooked up to the hyd system (as they didn't go into that but i dare say they would have just hooked it upto the std syst and had a electroic flow control to lockout the boom,grapple cont and give full power to the saw motor in the cut  ;) I hope this helps Mate  ;) ;D

Regards Chris

[craigc]

I run a Rottne SMV with a Hultdins grapple saw.  Use it everyday for bucking hardwoods in Illinois, works great.

[Wood_Niche]

What about a Norrhydro head?  I just ss happen to have one for sale.
It will cut up to 15" tree.  You need four lines to run it.  So you will need a
selector valve if you only have two. 

[Randy88]

CraigC where in Illinois are you located and can I come sometime and watch you run it when later this fall or early winter?   Wood_Niche whats a norrhydro head?   I've never heard of one like that before?   How does it work and how big can it do?

[craigc]

I am located in Central Illinois in the town of Effingham.  You are more than welcome to come take a look.