electricity costs

[Norwiscutter]

Hello everyone.

I have been putting together a very basic feasabilty asessment for a proposed small production (8,000-12,000 Bf/day) commercial grade hardwood operation, and have been weighing the bennefits and drawbacks of the many used higher production commerical products that are currently available in abundance.  One sticking point in particular is determinging cost/bennefits in the realm of electrical costs associated with equipment that is oversized for what we are wanting to accomplish.

For instance, a commerical chipper, with an electic motor in the 100 hp range, although darn near free in initial investment cost, might prove to be a liability when the electic bill comes.

Of course, one could run the chipper only after a large enough acumulation had occured, but I think this serves as an example of what I am getting at.

When you consider the electicity needed to run an 80 foot green chain, or a 100 ft. log infeed deck, or a 75hp edger, when is a good deal no longer a good deal?

Also, for those of you in the know, what type of electricity costs are you incuring running something like a helle scrag or a circle headrig in the 100hp to 150 hp range?

Thanks in advance.

   

[Ron Wenrich]

First off, an 8-12 Mbf/day mill isn't a small operation.  Its more on the medium size, as far as hardwood mills go. 

Waste needs to be handled once, no more.  If you can do it where there is no handling, all the better.  You will get about 2 tons of chips/Mbf sawn.  So, figure you're going to get close to a trailerload every 1-2 days.  Do you still want to accumulate it and handle it again?  I know of mills that did, then had to pay guys overtime to handle it.

When we put our mill in, we looked at electricity off the street.  It was expensive, and we had 3 phase running past us on the street.  They were talking $100K and that was 15 years ago. 

The problem with street electricity is that you have to pay a set amount each month, whether you use it or not.  I think that fee is around $1K.  Then you also have to pay for the juice you use, and that's usually used at the peak rate.  I'd check with the local utility before you use my numbers to pencil anything in.  Things are different in many locales.

We ended up putting in a gen set, which was cheaper in the long run.  Our fuel consumption is about 8 gal/hr. and we set prices early in the year.  Those huge fuel spikes never affected us.  We're running a 350 kW gen set.  Our voltage is 480 and we're running 62 hertz.

What we run for that price is a 100 hp headsaw, 75 hp hydraulic system, 60 hp vertical edger, 75 hp chipper, 50 hp horizontal edger, 10 hp vibrating conveyor, 10 hp blower, and 10 hp green chain.  Our debarker is run by a small Deutz engine.  We don't have enough on the gen set to put that on line. 

The main expense for electricity is when you start your motors, especially a chipper.  That spikes the meter, and they charge at that rate.  With the gen set, we start the big motors first, then add the lower hp ones. 

All our waste goes out by the vibrating conveyor.  Slabs are kicked off the live rolls.  Edging strips are thrown in where we grade the lumber.  The sawdust comes down from the headsaw and is screened out before the slabs and edging strips go into the chipper. 

A good deal is when you can make a profit from your operations.  You need to have sufficient production to keep your costs down.  Our production is in the 1200-2000 bf/hr range and a lot depends on log size, length and species.  You need to know which logs are costly to saw and keep them out of your production stream.  We run the mill operations with 5 guys.

[Bibbyman]

I'd think just as big a concern with using big equipment is the maintenance overhead involved.  Also,  the higher cost of wiring – wire, breakers, motor starters, distribution blocks.  (Unless they come with the units and you can use them.) 

We had a similar but smaller experience when we went electric.  We inquired about getting three phase from the electric company.  It was going to cost something like $40,000 to get three phase.  We could pay something like $380/month if we used a watt or not.  We elected to invest in a phase converter.  With all the equipment you're talking about, if a phase converter was even feasible,  it would be awful expensive.

But it may be worth it to inquire about 3ph availability.  I understand in some farm areas you can get 3ph as little or no extra cost.

[Carpenter]

Thanks for posting this question.  I have always wondered exactly how this works.  I have heard repeatedly that 3 phase is more economical in the long run.  Most of the farmers around me irrigate with 3phase pivots that were converted from diesel.  I know that they are quite expensive to run, but so is the diesel.  I used to help run some pivots in Colorado and I know that they were charged a start up fee at the beginning of the month that they started the pivot.  So, we never turned the pivot on for the first time of the season near the end of the month, always at the beginning and we always shut them off at the end of the last month.  Also, during times of peak usage some pivots get turned off by the power company, and by agreeing to this they get a reduced electrical rate.  I've never heard of a machine shop or other business getting shut off around here but I'm sure they pay more for the electricity than agricultural use.

     I have been thinking of running 3 phase as well.  Right now there is only the mill to run, but soon I think there will be more to run.  Also, they don 't have to run the 3 phase very far for me, I am surrounded by 3 phase pivots, infact I could probably run an extention cord from one to my mill,  ;D.  I wonder if the neighbors would notice their power bill being a little high in January.

[r.man]

I think that using three phase is a given for any operation that is talking about using multiple motors over 30 hp, especially if you expect to use used equipment. The cost of repowering a used machine and wiring it for a lower voltage single phase source would be prohibitive. Swapping out a few small motors is doable but you're not talking about that. A small planing mill in my area switched to a gen set last year for economic reasons but here I don't think it would have been an option if they ran 2000 hrs a year or more especially with the rising cost of fuel. Your area may be different and I think that Ron's and Bibby's advice about checking with your local utility is spot on. An informed decision is always preferable. Good luck.

[red oaks lumber]

ron's right ,go with a genset.
i had to put in 3 phase about 10 yrs ago( kiln runs24 hrs) they charge you a demand fee , high usage fee, your ugly fee, anything else they feel like fee. i'm a small operation and my elect. bill aveages 3 grand / month. if you can, start with a genset you can always up grade

[D._Frederick]

There are always a number of stand-by gen sets that go for a reasonable price, you may have to go half way across the country to get one of the right size.

[captain_crunch]

3 ph here in Oregon is a rich boys thing and 15 hp is all the bigger you can run single phase(at least in pumps) Gen set would be best bet. But with big mills shutting down here weekly I don't thing now is time to go big time. Belive the small opperators are gonna have an edge fer a spell

[Cedarman]

About 12 to 14 years ago we ran rotophase to get our 3 phase power.  We were limited on what we could do.  I used a Bandit chipper to chip all our cedar slabs and edging strips.  Our REMC came to me and said they would run 3 phase to me, about 2 1/2 miles if I agreed on contract to purchase $50,000 of electricity over the next 5 years.  Jumped on it.  Put in 100HP hog and 2 loads of cedar mulch pay our total electric bill each month.  We run 25 HP on WM,   2   15HP on baker scragg and 2   15 HP on WM resaw.  Plus 15HP planer and 25HP granulator to make our specialized sawdust.  Plus lights and several other motors on belts.
We make very sure we start the hog without any other 3 phase motors on to keep demand charges down.  We also have capacitors to keep power factor where it needs to be.

I love my REMC.

List the equipment you want to put in and get an electrician to estimate what it will cost to put in all the panels etc that it will take to run your equipment.  Don't forget the soft starts you will need.