I've got to have some hydraulics

gator gar · August 12, 2010, 09:48:54 PM

I've got the LT 28 and I need to modify it and add a hydraulic log turner and dog. I would also like to add the toe board rollers and the back supports to be hydraulic too.

Now I have seen pineywoods thread and may fab it up that way, but I want to go with a different power source other than electric. My power source would be from a gasoline engine and a hydraulic pump. My question is....What size engine and pump would I need to speed the log turner up?? What size hoses should go to the cylinders?? I've got a buddy that is going to help me with the hydraulic end of it and i will fab and weld evrything that I need. I need this in a bad way, because I am cutting alot and I need to speed it up and cut the manual labor out of it as much as possible.

Any ideas???

Polly · August 12, 2010, 09:58:45 PM

;)could you use a gas engine driven log splitter put a couple of quick couplers in the line and use it for your saw as well as your log splitter , napa could make up your lines and supply the hydraulic fittings :D 8)

gator gar · August 12, 2010, 09:59:37 PM

Buying a hydraulic Woodmizer is out of the question.

gator gar · August 12, 2010, 10:13:05 PM

If all else fails..........I live 4 hours and 49 minutes from PineyWoods. Nah, my buddy is pretty sharp. I think we'll get it figured out between us. I hope so anyway. If you think there isn't much difference in a manual, a hydraulic and a super hydraulic, well, I have news for you. I see them in action everyday and there is a big difference in each one. That Super, with the diesel, will walk the dog on some logs if you have the right person on the controls.

Magicman · August 12, 2010, 10:51:49 PM

Quote from: gator gar on August 12, 2010, 10:13:05 PMThat Super, with the diesel, will walk the dog on some logs if you have the right person on the controls.

r.man · August 12, 2010, 11:06:21 PM

You can buy a woodsplitter hydraulic power pack that has a hyd pump mounted on the proper size motor for it. I would think that a five would do everything you want and fairly fast. Some of the pumps are two stage so the gal per minute is high until it hits a load and then it bears down with a lower gpm. This takes the guess work out of gpm vs hp, rotation, shaft size etc. The price is generally better than buying all the pieces and assembling yourself. Good luck and take lots of pictures.

redbeard · August 12, 2010, 11:47:46 PM

I saw a log dog made with 12 volt hydraulics made from a old lift gate pump and controls, very compact and powerful. It had the cylinder pushing the dog on the under side of a track. You could probably add a turner off the same pump.

gator gar · August 13, 2010, 06:15:11 AM

I worked at a place called "Little Beaver" here in Livingston, Texas. You can google it. We made small augers for drilling holes that were hydraulic. If you want to drill some post holes, don't let the size of those things fool you. They will flat dig some holes.

Anyway, they sell an 11 horse power hydraulic power supply that comes on 3 wheels. I think it comes with a 6 GPM pump. and should run anything that I need. I just need to get a price on it today and if I think it is too much, I'll just build my own. It's portable an already has the hydraulic hoses with the quick connects ready to hook up.

I'm not building this thing to run in slow motion. When I hit a lever, I want something to move and move in a quick way.

here is what Im talking about....http://littlebeaver.com/prod_hydraulic.php

ladylake · August 13, 2010, 07:48:38 AM

My B20 uses a 6hp Briggs with maybe a 5 gpm single stage pump, runs everthing nice with no troubles in over 7000 hours. Steve

bandmiller2 · August 13, 2010, 08:00:44 AM

Gator, don't overlook a two plain clamp system.Hydraulic backstops should be a piece of cake. 3/8 hose should be plenty big. Frank C.

pineywoods · August 13, 2010, 10:25:47 AM

Gator, I seriously considered going with a gas engine to run my hydraulics. Even went so fas as to acquire a nice little 5 hp honda and a mount for the pump. All 3 of the woodmizers I have converted to hydraulic are fixed setups and always will be, so electric made more sense. The posts I made of the hydraulic add-on was of number 3. It is a little more sophisticated than the previous 2. Mine is the proto-type. 1 hp 1700 rpm motor with 3 gpm pump. Slow and looks rough due to lots of cut and try and Uh oh's. Number 2 uses a 2hp 3600 rpm motor with 3 gpm pump. Third one uses a 3hp 3600 rpm motor and a log splitter pump. Had to disable the high volume side of the pump, 3 hp is not quite enough. I think the ideal for portable use would be a 6 or 7 hp gas motor and a log splitter pump. The most expensive part is the control valve bank. Surplus center has a 4 valve open center bank for $350, all new brand name stuff. Stay away from a closed center setup. 3/8 hose and 1/2 black pipe on all 3 works fine.
You are welcome to come look and visit. I'm more or less retired and am usually here. The other 2 mills are a couple of miles down the road. If you are interested, there's also 2 working solar dry kilns.

ladylake · August 13, 2010, 11:01:13 AM

Nothing wrong with mounting a gas motor-pump setup on any mill. It's a lot less complicated, doesn't require a big alternator, and faster than a electric over hydraulic. Steve

sandhills · August 13, 2010, 01:35:59 PM

pineywood, why stay away from closed center hydraulics? I've been deeling with this on my tractors ( one closed the other open ) it's a pain in the but. I have to say though I do prefer the closed system better, they kinda take care of themselves. Just wonderin what you think.

gator gar · August 13, 2010, 02:31:36 PM

Looks like I am going with the 12 volt DC pump. The surplus supply is about to get some of my business. I'm about to head out and fab up what I have for the turner. The 12 volt DC is nice and compact and the last one I had on my old LT 40 Manual,that I modified for the log loader, did an excellent job and it loaded some BIG logs. Pineywoods, I saw that 4 valve body for 350.00 and that looks to be what I need. I'm excited and ready to put this stuff together.

paul case · August 13, 2010, 02:43:03 PM

are you building the two plane clamp or just a turner? i have been thinking on the 2 plane clamp myself and just going with a 12volt hydraulics like a bale spike works on.
has anyone ever tried a power steering pump from a pickup for a belt driven hydraulic set up? i modified on to run a hydraulic hay spike. it worked real well and we used an open center valve with a 3''x8'' cylinder and it would lift a 1000lb bale of hay. pc

gator gar · August 13, 2010, 09:45:02 PM

Quote from: paul case on August 13, 2010, 02:43:03 PM
are you building the two plane clamp or just a turner?

I'm building the turner like Pineywoods built and it acts as a dog too. Actually, the parts are already fabricated, with the exception of the angle iron. I have to drill 6- 1 inch holes and they are no fun with a 1/2 inch drive hand drill. Plus the four holes used to mount it to the mill. The spacers need to be welded in after the holes are drilled. I have them cut out already and the 45 degree angle bent in them. Everything is coming along just fine. We're going to fab the toe rollers out of some two inch pipe also. I'm about to have an LT28HD.

paul case · August 13, 2010, 09:51:38 PM

gator,
too bad you arent just down the road. you could bring them over to my shop n drill them on my 62' model 6' tall drill press. it sits more than anything ,but when ya need a hole drilled it gets called into service quickly. pc

gator gar · August 13, 2010, 10:04:29 PM

I'd pay good money to use that press. And yes to your power steering pump. My buddy built his mill and has a Toyota power steering pump running something on it.

pineywoods · August 13, 2010, 11:46:02 PM

Quote from: sandhills on August 13, 2010, 01:35:59 PM
pineywood, why stay away from closed center hydraulics? I've been deeling with this on my tractors ( one closed the other open ) it's a pain in the but. I have to say though I do prefer the closed system better, they kinda take care of themselves. Just wonderin what you think.

A closed center system does have a few advantages, particularly where you need to operate 2 or more cylinders at the same time. Downside, the pump must maintain full operating pressure even if all the valves are in the center or closed position. Makes for some very expensive complex pumps. Runs hotter and Much more prone to busted hoses and blown seals. Open center uses a cheap simple pump with 2 moving parts (gears). Oil circulates from the pump, through all the valves, and back to the oil tank with fairly low pressure until a valve re-routs the oil flow to a cylinder. Then the pressure will rise dependent on the load on the cylinder. Guess you could say I prefer open center cause I'm cheeep and proud of it ;D

sandhills · August 14, 2010, 01:45:56 AM

thanks for the input pineywood, I hope your right about the cheaper part cause my IH needs a new pump! (open center) ;D ;D I do have to say though that the closed center system is a lot faster and quicker to respond, this of course is all ag equiptment, nothing to do with milling or logging.

pineywoods · August 14, 2010, 10:20:18 AM

Quote from: sandhills on August 14, 2010, 01:45:56 AM
thanks for the input pineywood, I hope your right about the cheaper part cause my IH needs a new pump! (open center) ;D ;D I do have to say though that the closed center system is a lot faster and quicker to respond, this of course is all ag equiptment, nothing to do with milling or logging.

Sandhill, response time has more to do with the size of the pump than anything else. As a general rule, closed center systems will have a bigger pump to handle more than 1 cylinder at a time.

gator gar · August 14, 2010, 12:22:03 PM

I know one thing, I just went and got me a drill press, with a 1/2 inch chuck. I was dreading waking up, knowing I had to drill those 1 inch holes with that hand drill. Gonna go alot smoother now. 6 holes to go!!!

Buck · August 14, 2010, 08:04:17 PM

Gar, I'm in DeRidder, la. If it would help come get measurements and ideas form my lt-40. i also have a valve body i salvaged from controls of a hydraulic boom mower I will share with you. I think it has 5 valves in the bank. My 40 is stock hydraulics from woodmizer. I do have a friend close by that added the loader in a clamp on kit from WM. If nothing else come thru here on the way to see Pineywoods. Maybe you could get some good from my salvage

Dave Shepard · August 14, 2010, 09:09:37 PM

What would it take to put a two-plane clamp on an older standard hydraulic ('92)? I'll have to measure the super and the older mill, but I think just cutting that 4" tube and making the bump out. I don't think I can take not having the two-plane clamp.

jamesamd · August 16, 2010, 06:24:20 PM

Quote from: pineywoods on August 14, 2010, 10:20:18 AM
Quote from: sandhills on August 14, 2010, 01:45:56 AM
thanks for the input pineywood, I hope your right about the cheaper part cause my IH needs a new pump! (open center) ;D ;D I do have to say though that the closed center system is a lot faster and quicker to respond, this of course is all ag equiptment, nothing to do with milling or logging.
Sandhill, response time has more to do with the size of the pump than anything else. As a general rule, closed center systems will have a bigger pump to handle more than 1 cylinder at a time.

A closed loop valve bank,is only "quicker to respond" if a hydraulic accumulator is incorporated into the circuit.The volume and nitrogen precharge correctly,sized to the cylinders requirements and speed requirements.If You are wanting to fling the logs ten feet,onto Your mill,thats the way to go.

But if You care about long term reliability,less energy consumption and less heat,go with the open loop valve bank.Oil basicaly does not compress,as soon as You move the spool and begin to divert the flow in an open bank things will start moving.If You want instant response,shift the lever to it's fullest.If You want precise control at full pressure You'll need a fast response valve spool.That will cost $ and heat gain.

That will increase the heat building in the system and will require external cooling,IE water or oil to air.
So My advice,would be increase the volume of the pump to fling logs onto Your deck,with an open loop valve bank and increase the length of the levers,so when You get tired of rerighting Your mill,You
will have the ability to feather the controlls and accomplish speed and finess,with less heat. :D

Disregard all of this,if You cook roasting chicken's on the hydraulic reservoir for lunch. :D
Thats just the way it be. Jim

gator gar · August 16, 2010, 09:03:56 PM

Is open center the same as open loop??? I'm looking at the 3 stage open center stackable valve bodies. There are open center, closed center and one that just shows the whole 3 lever valve set that doesn't state either or, but is design for 2 stage. Which one do I get???

jamesamd · August 17, 2010, 09:12:37 PM

open center valves,P is open to T ,untill You divert the flow by shifting a control valve.

Jim

gator gar · August 17, 2010, 09:21:59 PM

Quote from: jamesamd on August 17, 2010, 09:12:37 PM
open center valves,P is open to T ,untill You divert the flow by shifting a control valve.

Jim

Anyone want to translate what this ol boy is saying to me??? I just changed out my hot water heater, but that is about the extent of me diverting some fluid. How about Pi r squared, will that give me a circumfrence or something??? Where is pineywoods, I need someone who speaks redneck.

sdunston · August 17, 2010, 09:34:34 PM

Here are some photo's of my converision

Hope these help
Sam

sgschwend · August 17, 2010, 09:39:30 PM

I believe he is suggesting in a stacked control valve set you would want open center, the center returns to reservoir unless you push a control valve lever. When the lever is pushed the hydraulic fluid is diverted to the load.

gator gar · August 17, 2010, 10:37:00 PM

Quote from: sgschwend on August 17, 2010, 09:39:30 PM
I believe he is suggesting in a stacked control valve set you would want open center, the center returns to reservoir unless you push a control valve lever. When the lever is pushed the hydraulic fluid is diverted to the load.

The P and T thing is throwing me off. Is that Port and tank??? Power and Tank???

gator gar · August 17, 2010, 10:40:39 PM

Quote from: Buck on August 14, 2010, 08:04:17 PM
Gar, I'm in DeRidder, la. If it would help come get measurements and ideas form my lt-40. i also have a valve body i salvaged from controls of a hydraulic boom mower I will share with you. I think it has 5 valves in the bank. My 40 is stock hydraulics from woodmizer. I do have a friend close by that added the loader in a clamp on kit from WM. If nothing else come thru here on the way to see Pineywoods. Maybe you could get some good from my salvage

Buck, thanks for the offer. I'm sure enough liable to come see ya. I worked at Westvaco for about a month in DeRidder running some steam tracing for them. You're not that far down the road from me.