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Ponds

Started by Pudge, August 12, 2010, 09:05:34 AM

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fishpharmer

Bro. Noble you have a great opportunity for some good fishing.   Sounds like your ponds may be 1/4 acre in size.  That is large enough for a fishing hole.  Don't expect to pull a great number of pounds out of the ponds each year.  But you can catch and release all you want.  The thing I love about small ponds is they are so easy to manage.  If you have a algae problem, small amounts of algicide treat it. Not much fertilizer is needed to maintain maximum productivity. 

You probably won't have adequate water quality (dissolved oxygen and low temperature) for trout and smallmouth bass year round.  Although, fall stocking of trout fingerlings, feed through the winter and catch them all in the spring would be possible. Isn't there a trout hatchery near you?

I would stock one pond with channel catfish, maybe the one with the best warm weather access.
These catfish could be fed everyday or often as possible.  Maybe use an automatic fish feeder, if you think the cows won't tear feeder up.  Even thought the surface area is small you have a good bit of water volume in a 12 foot deep pond.  I would put 100 catfish in there to start with.  See how they do in a summer of feeding.  You should be able to show your grandchillins some fun fishing for small catfish in a year.  Throw them back until they are large enough to fillet and eat.  Should be good eating size in two years. Keep track of how many fish you catch.  Restock with fingerlings every couple of years or annually if you are keeping a lot of catfish. With the steep banks you shouldn't have a rooted vegetation problem.  If you see some vegetation on the edges after a year, like Norm and Patty say, a couple grass carp should help.  To control mosquitoes you can stock some Gambusia sp.  often called Mosquitofish.  They eat mosquito larvae and some will get eaten by the catfish.

Pond 2, stock with hybrid bluegill.  Treat it basically the same as above.  The hybrids should be non to minimal reproductive.  These should be large enough for catch and release after one summer of feeding.  Or you could get by with just fertilizing the pond and getting slower growth.

Pond 3, stock with Largemouth bass, bluegill and redear sunfish (75-25%mix).  Most publications recommend 500 bluegill/redear per acre and 50 bass per acre. Just remember a one bass for each ten bluegill/redear stocked.  Some states recommend a higher ratio of bass, but think you get better quality bass quicker by staying with this lower ratio.  So you can scale the stocking to your pond size.  So for quarter acre...approximately 125 bluegill and 13 bass.  You can just fertilize this pond or supplemental feed the bluegill/redear. 

You may want to scare the fish eating birds away from these ponds for the first year.

Noble, that's just a few ideas that may help or confuse you.  I have been growing fish for nearly 20 years in a more southerly region, maybe i didn't cause to much confusion.

One more thing occurred to me.  If a pond seems unsuitable as a fishing pond, you might consider stocking goldfish or koi, they can tolerate poor water quality, cold winters and are fun to feed.  And the birds love to eat the little goldfish ;)


Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

sandhills

Not trying to change the thread but as always the wealth of 'different" knowledge on this forum absolutely amazes me!  Thanks for the responses everyone, and fishpharmer, someday we got to sit and talk awhile.  I'd love to see your place, and see how it's done! :)

Norm

Great info James!

The common theme in our area is to stock channel cats with bluegill and bass. We decided to not do the cats and just go with bluegill, bass and crappie. I tried smallmouth bass for 2 years at 200 per year but have yet to catch one.

James you ever make it to Iowa and we'll sit down by the pond and I'll bore you to tears with questions. :)

fishpharmer

Patty, Norm and Sandhills i would be glad to talk ponds if we get an opportunity.  Pig roast may be a good place ;).

What little I know about fish makes up for all I know about being a sawyer. ;) ;D

This is a great place with a lot to be learned. 
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Bro. Noble

Thanks, Fish

I'm not sure what I'll do if anything,  but I sure like the goldfish idea.   We have an old shallow pond that we drive by daily doing chores.  We would be able to see the fish from the road.  I remember such a pond by a county road as a small boy and how much I enjoyed seeing the goldfish every time we drove by.  We have four new ponds and I will probably try your different suggestions.  The best pond or two,  I will probably try the mixture like Norm and Patty have at the ratios you reccomended.

My Grandsons thank all of you for your suggestions ;D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

fishpharmer

Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

doctorb

Phishfarmer-

I have a pond that was pretty clear for years.  The last 2 summers have brought algae and water with low visibility  (6 inches ).  I tried some algicide this spring, but the pond overwhelmed it. 
I have let the weed growth on the edges of the pond grow, and some of that dies off, creating fertile ground for the algae.  The pond is triangular, each side about 25 yards, and has a depth of over 10 feet.  Used to have bass up to 3 pounds.  Also has bluegill.  Had some big cats in it but haven't seen them for a few years either.  Took a huge snapping turle out last year.  No keeper bass caught in 2 years.  What happened?

My plan is to clean up the edges and remove all dead vegitation this fall.  When do I replace the algicide?  I can restock adult bass from local reservoirs.  Does the change in my pond copincide with the loss of the catfish??

Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

fishpharmer

Hi Doc, which algicide are you using? 

What species of catfish and how big were the largest?

Also, is the pond near a larger lake or stream?  Where did snapper come from?

Hate to ask so many questions, but the info will help me figure it out.

I really need to get to a real keyboard to share my opinion.
Maybe we can figure it out then.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

doctorb

Phish-

Algicide:  Cutrine granular

The pond is not fed by a stream or lake.  The pond is positioned at the head of a stream, and is filled by multiple springs, which are its only inflow.  It has two other farm ponds (not mine) further down its course.

Catfish:  Hate to sound dumb but I can't ID cats....never really fish for them much!  Largest was  about 28-30"

Thanks for your help.

If you want a chuckle, google "The Turtle Man"  This guy is from Kentucky and clears ponds of snappers barehanded.  Worth a look!

Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Bro. Noble

Well, Fish, I've heard there's no such thing as a stoopid question, but here's some that probably come pretty close:

How do you fertilize a pond and what with?

What do you feed fish in a pond and what do they eat if you don't feed them?

I've seen fingerlings advertized where you meet the truck at specified locations at certain times,  but can you buy them by mail?

Are you going to send doctorb a big fat bill for consulting? :D :D :D   I'm just kidding dr. ,  I wouldn't be pulling your leg if I weren't so glad that you have joined our family :)
milking and logging and sawing and milking

doctorb

Bro Noble-

He clears up my pond problems and I'll be happy to pay that consultation fee!  I need to reaffirm my suggestion--- You Tube "The Turtle Man"  He's from Kentucky and does stuff I wouldn't dream of doin'.

Phishfarmer-

Do I need to aerate this pond?

Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

fishpharmer

DoctorB, I am still pondering your pond problems. Which brings about some more questions.
I suppose first of all you need to define your goals.

Is it safe to say, first you want 3 lb plus largemouth bass?
Prefer the water stays clear?
Would like to have large catfish as well?
How old is the pond?  Did you stock it? If so when?
 
Most likely your getting some new nutrient input into the pond water causing the algae and other vegetation.  Clear water usually isn't as productive as "greenish" colored water.  A phytoplankton bloom (the green in "greenish" water) is the base of a pond food chain.  A warmwater pond is much more productive with if it has a phytoplankton bloom.  The phytoplankton is a type of algae.  Its the other types of muticellular algae that is unwanted in a pond often described as "goo" or "green slime"  or "moss" by fishermen when it fouls hooks.  To get rid of the "goo" the granular cutrine is a good choice for most algae.  It's easy to apply. 

To be honest, I think you need to send me some pictures and we need to talk about it on the phone.  A discussion would save a lot of time.  Then we can post the outcome.  All FF pond consulting fees can be sent to Jeff to support the forum. :)

Brother Noble...hmm.
Quote from: Bro.  Noble on September 20, 2010, 03:16:56 PM
Well, Fish, I've heard there's no such thing as a stoopid question, but here's some that probably come pretty close:
How do you fertilize a pond and what with?
Those are good questions.  The stoopid ones I ask about milling lumber :-[.

There are several methods of pond fertilization associated with different forms of fertilizer.
Most often the most limiting nutrient in a warm water pond is phosphorous (the middle number on a typical fertilizer bag label, such a 13-13-13).   So you want a big middle number for a pond fertilizer such as 0-46-0. 

Just like other fertilizers your more familiar with, pond fertilizer is manufactured in numerous different forms.  Granular, liquid and soluble powder.  Of the three available, I like soluble powder the best.  Its easy to apply, dissolves instantly into the water column and works rapidly.  Granular and liquid tend to sink to the bottom and bind with mud rendering them useless unless measures are take to stir them into the water column.  Soluble powder can be applied with a cup or scoop.

My favorite fertilizer is Full Stringer made by Pro Sol, it has a 10-52-4 analysis.  Works well, apply 4 lbs per surface acre, it is sold in 25 lb bags.

Quote from: Bro.  Noble on September 20, 2010, 03:16:56 PM
What do you feed fish in a pond and what do they eat if you don't feed them?


There are basically two general types of fish feed; floating and sinking.  Buy floating feed, unless you have problem with birds picking off your small fish.  Floating feed allows you to monitor the feeding activity.  Fish feeds are made in numerous sizes and percentages of protein.  The smaller size is best to feed smaller fish.  Although larger size feed is usually cheaper and the small fish will eat it as it dissolves in the water.
Higher protein levels cost more.  Catfish and bluegill grow fine with 28 to 32 percent protein feed.

Fish quickly become accustomed to being fed and will get used to the sound of the vehicle you feed from.  If you want the most rapid growth of catfish, bluegill/redear and hybrid bluegill you really need to feed some kind of a pelleted fish feed.

When you don't feed fish they rely on natural food such as worms, insects and zooplankton like copepods and daphnia.  The fertilizer feeds the phytoplankton which feeds the zooplankton.

Quote from: Bro.  Noble on September 20, 2010, 03:16:56 PM

I've seen fingerlings advertised where you meet the truck at specified locations at certain times,  but can you buy them by mail? 


Several places ship small fish in plastic bags, filled half with water and half with pure oxygen.  The bags are put in a styrofoam box, which in turn is put in a cardboard box.  Maybe some other methods of shipment too. 

Often a reputable fish hatchery with in 100 miles will deliver, that would be your best option.  Because there are some tricks to properly stocking fish into a pond.

Not sure if its always true, but often the quality of fish sometimes leaves something to be desired when they come off a traveling fish truck.   Be careful.

Hope this makes a little sense and helps you or someone.  Maybe someone else can add too it, or correct me.  I learn new stuff everyday. 8) 8)


Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Kansas

Fishpharmer

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind my asking. I had a pond built last summer around 2 1/2 acres in size. This pond has springs in the bottom of it, and was built on a small creek. In July I stocked it with largemouth bass, channel cat, both hybrid and regular bluegill, along with some fathead minnows. The stocking rates were well below the recommended number for the size of the pond, maybe 1/3. The fish truck will be in the area the last of this month and I want to stock some crappie at that time. My questions are:

Should I also stock some more of the other fish?
I now have vegetation underwater. Is it time to stock some grass carp?
I never heard of fertilizing a pond before. Does that cause something to grow that the grass carp are going to eat? Almost seems counter productive.
I see at least a few turtles floating around in the pond from time to time. Do they harm the fish? Should I start trying to eradicate them?

fishpharmer

Kansas,
I don't mind answering your questions (or anybody else) to the best of my ability.  My experience is limited to ponds with warmwater species of fish in the Southeast US.  Although you may have the same species, other regional environmental factors come into play.  Most states have a Department of Natural Resources with fish biologists that offer technical guidance for free (funded by taxes, if thats free).  I did some digging into Kansas DNR website and found some pond info. Kansas does not recommend fertilizing ponds.  Here is link...
http://www.kdwp.state.ks.us/news/Fishing/Special-Fishing-Programs-for-You/Pond-Management-Program/Producing-Fish-and-Wildlife-in-Kansas-Ponds/Fish-Management/Fertilization

That is opposite from Southern pond management.  I can give my opinion, but my experience is limited to the South.  Kinda like WDH can tell you everything and anything you want to know about Southern Yellow Pine.  Where as swampdonkey specializes in Northern species.

With the above disclaimer I will continue.
DO NOT stock crappie into a pond.  They will outcompete the other species and overpopulate.  You will end up with a pond full of small crappie, 3-4 inches long.
Check with you state laws, grass carp aren't always legal, or if legal you must use sterile triploid grass carp.  Now that fall is almost here I would wait until spring.  Let winter kill the vegetation and stock grass carp in the spring.  The grass carp prefer new tender vegetation and will do a better job of control in the spring when vegetation starts growing.

Don't fertilize, according to Kansas DNR.

Most likely your turtles aren't having a negative impact on the population of fish.  Snapping turtles can be detrimental in a small pond.

Hope that helps


Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

doctorb

Kansas

I purchased a video a while back (VHS - that's old now!) entitled "Great Small Waters"  It was done by Ray Scott of B.A.S.S. and is a three part instructional course on how to incfrease the productivity of your pond.  I tried to apply some of the points in it to my pond.  some of the improvements are best done during the construction of the pond, not after.  Since my pond alreasdy existed, adding structure and different bottom compositions was harder.  I had to drag trees and cement blocks out on the ice and wait for it to melt to sink them!  Anyway, if you can find it, I think it's worthwhile viewing.

Phishfarmer - we'll talk!  I just need my life to slow a little bit!

Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

fishpharmer

Doc, I will send you a pm with contact info. 
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Pudge

Quote from: Bro.  Noble on September 18, 2010, 02:02:00 PM
Well, since the discussion of pond weeds has died down,  I will ask my pond stocking questions now ;)

Last spring we had some ponds built and I am wondering if they are suitable for stocking with fish.  They are about 20-30 yards in diameter and have a fast drop-off to ten or twelve feet deep.  The cattle are not fenced out,  but I rotational graze and cattle have access to them for a limited amount of time.

Will that provide a good enough environment for fish?  What species would do the best?  We aren't necessarily interested in using them for fishing,  but thought it might be good to keep down mosquitoes and to attract fish eating birds.

I'm interested in your views and experience,  Thanks :)

Now Bro Noble WHY would you want fish eatin birds around? Nailhead used to target practice when he saw those :D :D :D

Bro. Noble

The old pond I mentioned that is near the lane has a highline that runs over it.  Lots of times when we go by there there is a redtailed hawk sitting on the wire watching for something to eat.  I suppose he catches some frogs.  The new ponds are full of tadpoles :D

We used to have a screech owl that lived in the attic of an old house near the mill.  A chipmunk lived in the slabpile.  We got lots of enjoyment while sawing , watching the two critters watching each other :D :D

I guess I'm just a bloodthirsty sadist :D :D :D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Bro. Noble

Your answer on what fish eat if you don't feed them made me think of another question, Fish.

How long should you wait before stocking a new pond?  Our new ponds are clear, but tea colored and have a bunch of tadpoles in them.  I don't see any signs of plant life,  but I'm not too fimilar with that type of plants.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

fishpharmer

Noble, I would stock your bluegill/redear/hybrids as soon as possible.  They will eat small tadpoles and insects now.  If you want, offer a small size sinking fish feed.  Sinking feed is better for small fish because it keeps the fish away from water surface.  Fish eating birds love it when we feed small fish on the surface, see food buffet.  A half a cup a day until water temps drop below 65 should help growth and spring spawning of bluegill/redear.  Generally bass fingerlings are not available this time of the year.  If they are (in the south) they are stunted.  A lot of research has gone into the timing of stocking a new pond.  The idea is that the bluegill spawn before bass are stocked so the bass eat Bluegill fry.

Clear water is fine now.

You can also stock catfish now, channel cats are preferred.

Don't worry about vegetation til spring.

Hope that helps.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Patty

Koi are so hardy a fish, that they are great for a small, non-aerated pond, if you just want lots of fish for fun.

Norm put in a small pond (15' across) in our front yard several years ago. It was shallow (2-3' on one end) and over 6' at the deep end, so the fish could over-winter without any trouble from us. This pond was lined (see pond liners), so it had no vegetation growing in it at all at the beginning. Our boys each bought him 2 koi fish, of which one died immediately. So we started off with 3 tiny little fish that they bought from WalMart. That is all it took! Within a year, we had thousands of pretty koi, every color imaginable. They were fun to watch, and attracted the birds, such as kingfishers, and other fish-eating birds. Not to mention, raccoons and varmits who also happen to like fish!  ::)

Eventually we did put in a little waterfall, for aesthetics, and it probably helped to aerate the pond. We immersed a sump pump into the deep end, connected a hose to it, ran the hose under riverrock up to the top of the waterfall, where it emptied out onto the rocks and cascaded back into the pond. (waterfall on a budget!!) Not only was it pretty, the sound was extremely relaxing.

Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

fishpharmer

Patty, how long are your largest Koi?

Do you have any pics of the koi pond?
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Bro. Noble

I'd like to see some pictures of this project :)
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Norm

This pond was over at our old place and when my son moved in I took it out and filled it up with lime. The sides of the pond because of the liner was slicker than glass and my biggest concern was that my grandson would wander over there while no one was looking and slide in.

fishpharmer

Norm good thinking, pond liners can be trecherous.

Wonder if Bro. Noble and Kyle got their new fish today?
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

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