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Trying to get some land cut out from larger parcel, how do I do it??

Started by Piston, August 07, 2010, 09:14:34 AM

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Piston

I hope I'm posting this in the right place but I wasn't really sure where to put it....

I've posted a few things over the years about some land my grandfather owns in the Lakes Region of NH, it's about 50 acres. 
Well he has offered to pretty much give me around 10 acres or so (never really came up with a number, I'm just throwing that out there) and I checked into what needs to be done in order to get it in my name, so I could build a cabin or small home on it.  It looks like the first step is to have it surveyed, I believe I have to have it surveyed and cut out a section of it so I can put that portion of his lot in my name, for instance my own 10 acre lot, out of his larger 50 acre lot. 

I know this is probably region specific but I'm curious about the rough cost of a survey?  I called a couple different surveyors on the phone about a year ago (just after snow fell) and I got a rough estimate of 7,500 to 10,000 dollars, this was to survey the entire 50 acres.
I know the land was surveyed in the early '80's to cut out a portion for my aunt (his daughter.)  Does the entire 50 acres have to be surveyed AGAIN in order to cut out a 10 acre parcel???
I would love to take advantage of his offer sooner rather than later but I wanted to check with my 'forum friends'  ;D before shelling out the kind of cash.  I honestly was quite shocked when I heard it was that expensive, I just thought that sounded high??
I'm hoping someone on here is familiar with NH land laws and could at least point me in the right direction. 
Otherwise, does anyone have experience using a surveyor in my area?  If you have any recommendations on who to use (or who NOT to use) I would love to hear them, either here or by PM. 

I don't want to wait around too much longer on this because it is a really great opportunity for me to jump on, I could see my wife and I there with kids someday using it as a weekend getaway and vacation cabin. 

I have another question for a different land opportunity but I'll only throw one thing out there at a time, it will help me from getting all confused  :D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

beenthere

Look into a quit claim deed and come up with a description of the land you have in mind, and get your grandfather to sign that land over to you. Then follow up on how the previous survey will fit the present need.

The survey could be expensive, depending on what exists for monuments and descriptions.

Surveyors are a bit like lawyers when it comes to not taking previous information to heart, and want to "do it themselves". IMO and in my experience.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Autocar

Another idea try going to a local city they have surveyors that work for them. Once I had one on his weekend do some work for me and it was $175.00 it was on 7 acres. 7500 there nuts I think, what do they want to do get rich off one job ? Then we wonder why our country is in the shape it's in !  >:(
Bill

mtngun

Quote from: Piston on August 07, 2010, 09:14:34 AMIt looks like the first step is to have it surveyed
Perhaps that is a requirement in your state, but in Idaho there is no law requiring a survey before subdividing or selling land.   My land has never been surveyed.

You will definitely need a legal description.    That might be quite simple or it could be complicated, requiring a survey, depending on this 10 acre parcel.   For example, if the 50 acres is a rectangle, and your 10 acres is a corner or a slice of the 50 acre rectangle, then a lawyer should be able to write out a legal description in about 5 minutes,  without ever leaving his desk.

On other hand, if your 10 acres is an odd shape, or if the 50 acres is an odd shape,  or if your 10 acres is somewhere in the middle of his 50, then the description may get complicated and you may indeed require a survey.

Assuming you've decided which chunk of land you want, your next step is to talk to a lawyer and/or a title company.   You'll have to have one anyway, to draw up the deed and the description and to file the paperwork, so they can advise you if a survey is required.


Woodhauler

I gave my daughter 5 acres here in maine and we ran the lines with gps and wrote the deed up with those gps lines as the boundries. The bank was fine with that when they went to borrow money for house!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

J_T

Yep here you can take the legal from his deed as in north side borders Joe Jones thus 70 rods to Sam Henderson south line ect
You can then cut how many feet off forming your line . He can give you a general warranty deed to . Much better than a Quit  Claim deed this type deed says you get his interest if he has any .Look up different types of deeds in your state . Looked it up your state does have warranty deeds http://www.realestatelawyers.com/resources/real-estate/state-deed/new-hampshire-deed.htm Good luck
Jim Holloway

woodmills1

your question is probably more complecated than you think.  It is not just the division of the land, but also the building on it.

most NH towns of any size, Laconia for example, have enacted very similar laws and regulations concerning subdivision of land and its eventual use.

I just took a quick look at laconias zoning ordinance and it is very similar to the one in my town, Hudson

Yes you and your granfather may be able to create a document to transfer ownership of the property, but I think you will want that property to be used for some purpose in the future

the first major question I would ask is how the property is accessed and then how your piece is to be accessed.  If the answer to both questions is by approved town street or state road.......easy  If the answer is an unaccepted "camp" road ...hard

I just wouldn't want to see you acquire the property then not be able to use it.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

woodmills1

James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Piston

Quote from: Autocar on August 07, 2010, 02:10:28 PM
Another idea try going to a local city they have surveyors that work for them. Once I had one on his weekend do some work for me and it was $175.00 it was on 7 acres. 7500 there nuts I think, what do they want to do get rich off one job ? Then we wonder why our country is in the shape it's in !  >:(

I thought so too, but then again I don't know anything about surveying. 

I will research a bit more on the "quite claim deed" and the "warrenty deed".  Thanks for the link to get me started.  I really don't know much about buying or transferring land and I am clueless on deeds and any type of 'legel documents' 

I sure wish I could use gps positions, some sort of waypoint averaging using dgps or something like that, even some of those handhelds list an average 'error' on them.  I assume they use survey equipment with additional differential corrections though.

The lot has 3 straight lines for the most part.  The west boundary runs along his (dirt) road and is the front of his land, the south boundary goes along a fairly straight stone wall back to a brook, the east boundary (back of lot) follows this brook down until it intercepts another (paved) road, then straight to the intersection of the paved road and dirt road which meets up with the original start.  Both roads are town maintained. 

I would want a parcel in the back for the most part, basically the southeast corner of the lot, however with a 'strip' of land going out to the dirt road, which would be about 150' wide based on the minimum for road frontage, this strip would be adjacent to the stone wall.  (unless I could just do a ROW or something similar, but that may complicate things.)

Woodhauler:
I'd be interested to hear more about how you transferred the ownership?  Did you simply pick off 4 corners with the gps and submit that?  Who did you have to submit it to and how did the land get from your name to your daughters?   

As you can see i'm not very educated on land transactions  ;D

Thanks for the responses so far, hopefully I can avoid the 7-10k price tag on transferring the land. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

maple flats

One one piece I owned once that I sub divided and I dictated while my lawyer wrote the description and it flew. I just did the boundry description, he did all of the legal mumbo jumbo. The piece I was breaking it from however had a recent survey from shortly after I bought it a few years earlier at a tax sale. I have since sold both, after doing the abstract of title (I had to do a lot of the research before the abstract company could even find it because it had been thru a tax sale several times over the last 60 years. Once I found the links the abstract co. finalized it and I created a warranty deed for sale from a tax sale mess. Warning, doing something like this requires a keen interest in reading deeds and the ability to take good notes and lots of time.
As for you, I would try first to check to see it adjacent properties have been surveyed. Then do a tax search and a lien search to be sure gramps didn't forget to pay something (this info is available to you at your county clerks office but you will need the time to look things up yourself). A quit claim would be a good idea in case anything were to happen to grandpa before a warranty deed could be finalized. Then I encourage a survey if you can afford it, a surveyor can estimate the price but if never surveyed it might be a broader range. Lastly, use a lawyer to make sure things are done properly or everything could be kicked out in court if a neighbor challenges the boundry line.
Most property can be divided one time without a sub division (at least in NY) if it has had the same owner for over 20 yrs, to split into more than 2 parcels would need subdivision approval by the local board.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

J_T

No need to make things hard a Warranty deed can be done in one or two days  ???
Jim Holloway

Piston

Well I just emailed the town hall about where to start with this whole process and I'll see what they come back with.  It seems like the actual transfer of ownership will be the easy part? 
I think the hard part will be cutting out a parcel from the larger chunk of land.  I'm really hoping I could either A)cut out the parcel without having it surveyed or B) have a surveyor survey the land for an affordable price.  I don't have a problem getting it surveyed for a grand or so but I just feel like I'm getting taken for a ride spending 10grand on a survey for a rural piece of property.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

4genlgr

Do you have the map from the 1980's survey? are there corner markers set from that survey? if you do, there is the starting place for a description for what ever piece your grandfather wants to deed over, even if its in the middle of a side ( begining xxfeet from the corner marker etc). what a bank might need so you could build is another aminal altogether

before you do this (you and gramps) make sure of your access and road frontage requirements. there is no hassle like finding out you need 300ft frontage on a road to build and you only have 290ft

it cost 3500 for a neighbor and i to figue out where her corner was and to swap some in the front for some in the back so i could keep an access road that we both thought was mine and get her road frontage on the "new" road instead of on a road that was cutoff in the 30's

JDeere

Piston, In NH you must have a state subdivision permit if any lot is created results in a parcle of less that 5 acres. In your case this should not apply. Lots created that are greater than 5 acres are only subject to local requirements, unless they are along a protected body of water (Shoreland Protection Act). Your next step you have already initiated, which is to check on the town requirements. I will be very surprised if the town does not have any subdivision regulations. If they do, you can not simply do a transfer of title or deed without the town's approval. They may regulate the road frontage required, the survey standards to be used, topographic mapping of the entire parcel, wetlands mapping and on and on and on. Some towns in NH are easy and some are a bear. As far a surveyor, I would check your Grandfather's existing map for a name of the original surveyor. If you can get the same guy or firm you could save a lot of money by not paying for the research all over again. If that doesn't pan out, try as suggested above and see who surveyed the abutting property. Again, you don't have to pay for new research. Good Luck!
2013 Western Star, 2012 Pelletier trailer, Serco 7500 crane, 2007 Volvo EC 140, 2009 John Deere 6115D, 2002 Cat 938G, 1997 John Deere 540G, 1996 Cat D-3C, 1995 Cat 416B, 2013 Cat 305.5E

Black_Bear

Surveyors make some of their money fixing problems that do-it-yourselfers create. The problems will start when the remaining land gets transferred out of the family. It may not be for 5 years, 20 years, 30 years or 40 years, but boundary and/or title problems will undoubtedly surface at some time in the future. Most surveyors I have worked for - and they are reputable - would not have to survey the entire 50 acres. However, they would want to survey all existing lines, including roads and streams, that will be incorporated into the new parcel. 

I would call around to some local surveyors again. In my experience, $4-5K would be a fair price for you and the surveyor. Look at this way - you are getting the land for free - spend $5K to have it done professionally - And spend another $750 to get a lawyer to search the title and handle the closing. That way - when the mud hits the fan you are protected. I'd be willing to bet your grandfathers lawyer suggests a quitclaim deed be used. That's just been my experience with family transactions. A quitclaim deed releases all rights that your grandfather has, whatever they may be, to you. But, that's legalese and I'd let the lawyer handle it.

I know the land in the Lakes Region isn't cheap - and the surveyors know this. I find it kind of petty when someone who is sitting on land that can go for $2K-$10K/acre squawks at a $5-10K surveying bill - especially when that will be one of the few expenses. That's not a shot at you Piston - I understand 100% what you are trying to do - but I have seen the corner cutting really bite some innocent people in the hind end. Be proactive and let the professionals keep you out of trouble. Spend $5K now or $10-20K later.

As a side note - I also find it odd that someone will unquestionably pay 6% commission to a realtor on a $300K home ($18K), but squawk when they receive a $5K survey bill on the same parcel. Just doesn't make sense!! 

Just my $.02,
Ed   

Piston

Thanks for the advice guys. 
As far as frontage, there will be plenty for a lot, so that isn't an issue.  There won't be any wetlands in my parcel (there are wetlands on the other side of his land though, quite a ways from where I'll be) 

I will check some more quotes from surveyors.  I don't mind spending the money and contributing to the local economy, but I do mind if someone is trying to 'take me for a ride.' 

Ed,
Your right I would much rather spend the money now rather than later, and also I want to have it all legal and make sure there are no problems many years down the road.  I don't want to run into a problem if we end up wanting to move there permanently and build a house on the land. 

The abutter to the side of his property that I will be getting doesn't have a recent survey.  It has been in their family since the early 1900's.  There are no buildings on the 300+ acres whatsoever.

I haven't heard back from the town yet.  I emailed them a while back and never heard anything either, maybe they don't like email.   ;D
I'll be going back up there in a few weeks (to pick up my new soapstone woodstove 8)) and will swing by the town hall and see where to begin on this. 

Thanks again and if anything else comes to mind from anyone that could help out with something, please let me know. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Ron Scott

Yes, you should have a registered surveyor subdivide the property as desired and obtain a certificate of survey from them as recorded in the county court house.

Contact all the registered surveyors working the area and get bids for their survey work. The cost will depend upon how much is involved in establishing the new survey.

Yes, its always best to visit the county court house in person and get the details from the correct person and establish a relationship with them. They often don't respond to emails in a timerly manner. ;)
~Ron

woodmills1

yes go to town hall in person.  the people behind the desk(I call mine here the girls, but I can get away with that)  will be wonderfully helpful.  The planning dept and its rulles can be quite brutal.   from expereince
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Piston

I'll make it up to the town hall in a few weeks.  I'm sure I'll get more help that way, when I used to live up there I never minded going in to renew a license, register a car, or any of those things I have to go to the registry now for, I can't stand waiting in those lines now, I miss the simplicity of the town hall doing everything. 

I'm away for work now so all I have is email, unfortunately when I'm away for work is when I'm thinking the most about these things, then I get home and get busy and next thing I know it's time to go back to work!   :D

I printed out a list of the surveyors in the area and will make some phone calls for a general idea of cost.  Once I have a better handle on what I need to do I will hopefully not be so 'intimidated' by the process of everything. 

Thanks for all your remarks.

Woodmills thanks for the advice, any more 'local' tips for me?  It seems like your pretty well versed on the process for NH regs.  8)


side note: for some reason I'm not getting notified of replies?  I have the notification enabled.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

John Mc

A lot of surveyors are pretty knowledgeable about subdividing, but not all of them. Remember, their primary focus is measuring and marking the lot itself (and good ones will do deed research to support that). A lawyer is probably the one to walk you through the subdivision process. If you find a good real estate lawyer, they can also recommend a good surveyor.

When we bought our land, it had never been surveyed. There were some unusual things in the deed. Our lawyer recommended a surveyor who had a reputation in our area for doing things right... his work always seems to stand up if challenged in court.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Black_Bear

Quote from: John Mc on August 13, 2010, 08:02:20 AM
A lot of surveyors are pretty knowledgeable about subdividing, but not all of them. Remember, their primary focus is measuring and marking the lot itself (and good ones will do deed research to support that). A lawyer is probably the one to walk you through the subdivision process. If you find a good real estate lawyer, they can also recommend a good surveyor.

When we bought our land, it had never been surveyed. There were some unusual things in the deed. Our lawyer recommended a surveyor who had a reputation in our area for doing things right... his work always seems to stand up if challenged in court.

I do agree - not all licensed land surveyors are knowledgable about municipal subdivision regs. - and they SHOULD not take the job if that is the case. However, the public perception of a LS is what the public sees the LS, or the employees of the LS, doing: measuring things. In reality, the LS that stamps the work is more concerned with the legals (deeds, maps, parol evidence, occupation, etc.) that control the locations of the boundaries and what the boundaries are. A surveyor that does not perform a thorough records search should not be hired...period!!! There are situations where it can be written into the contract that a records search can be bypassed, but this does not sound like one of those situations.   

Personally, I would avoid hiring a lawyer (read:big $$$) to guide you through the subdivision process - this is what most land surveyors are in business to do. Find a reputable surveyor who has knowledge of the HISTORY of the area AND knowledge of the subdivision process for that particular municipality. Hire a lawyer to write the deed and handle the transfer, but whatever you do, have the land surveyor write the new description and deliver it to the lawyer to insert into the new deed.

Piston

I got an email back from my grandfather and he said he does still have the old survey.  I googled the name of the company he gave me (Belknap Surveying Co.) but didn't find anything with a quick search.  When I go up there I'll take a look at the plot plan and I'm sure there is an address on there I can check out.  The man who originally did the survey is retired now but my gramps seems to think the company is still in business.  I'll check them out first as well as call a bunch of others that I found on www.nhlsa.org

I'll also walk the land and tape off the area I want to cut out just as a reference before the surveyor comes, hopefully make it easier for him to see what I have in mind. 

I'm gonna post on a more local site as well to see if anyone has any experience with surveyors in that area. 

With any luck, I'll be clearing a site for a cabin next spring! It would be a great excuse to convince my wife we need that new tractor!  8)
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

John Mc

I don't know how dense the undergrowth along the existing and proposed property lines are, but one thing you might ask the surveyor is if you can save some money by clearing the sight-lines on or near the property lines. This would have saved me some $ on my property, had I realized ahead of time that he would be doing that.

Worth discussing with them anyway, to see if it would save you something. If they are open to it, have a bit of discussion about exactly what they need cleared. They don't always need a path right along the property line. Sometimes a cleared sightline offset to one side or the other will do the job fine .

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

maple flats

As far as the old surveyor goes, even if he has gone out of business, some other surveyor will have bought his files. This is common place. He may have merged or been bought out too, a little checking should turn up something.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Piston

I was able to get a great description and copy of both the deed and the plot plan off the registry of deeds webisite (Belknap county)
It looks like it marked very well on the survey plan.  It shows the stone wall as one boundary, then giving way to barbed wire (growing through trees) and eventually meeting the creek in the back, which is the back property line, then basically follow the creek for so many feet at such and such bearing, and then it goes along the road back to the original start. 

It really seems pretty straight forward to me, the date on the survey was 1988.  I can't imagine it would be too difficult or expensive to cut out 10-15 acers. 

I just bought a polesaw attachment for my FS90 string trimmer and I'm gonna cut out the property lines I want when I go up there in a couple weeks.  Once fall comes and the leaves are off the trees I'll hopefully have someone lined up to do a survey.  I hope as long as I get the survey done before snow falls, then I can do the 'paperwork' over the winter, and be all said and done by spring time.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

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