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Bought '79 tj 230 forwarder, have questions (brakes)

Started by Sunrise Farms, August 06, 2010, 06:30:43 PM

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Sunrise Farms

Hi all,

Been trolling the forum, haven't posted anything yet, but I just bought a 79 TJ forwarder, and have some questions about it. Heres a pic so you guys can see what it looks like:



First, I bought it without working brakes, and I'd like to get those fixed before I use it too much. What can you all tell me about the braking system. I tracked it down to something inside the transfer case, but it isn't the typical rotor/ caliper deal I'm used to. Does anybody have a schematic as to how these brakes work? I have attached a picture of the brake system so you guys know what I'm talking about.



Also, I'd like to get a manual that might explain this and other things. Is the owners manual on Johndeeretechinfo.com just your basic owners manual, or does it go into pretty good detail on how to work on these machines?

Thats it for now, but I'm sure I'll have some more questions in the future
'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

Don K

Can't answer your questions, just wanted to comment on the nice forwarder. :)

Don
Lucky to own a WM LT40HDD35, blessed to have a wife that encouraged me to buy it.     Now that\'s true love!
Massey Ferguson 1547 FWD with FEL  06 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4X4 Dozer Retriever Husky 359 20\" Bar  Man, life is getting good!

timberjackrob

looks the same as a 200 series skidder should be just a couple of disc inside the back housing where the rear driveshaft comes out.y are dry brakes and are usually easy to fix  we always take the whole transfer case out it makes it much easier 
208 timberjack, woodmizer lt28,case 455 trackloader with gearmatic winch,massey 4710, ford f250s ford f700

Sunrise Farms

anyone know where I can get new parts, or what kind of vehicle they are off of so I can go to a car place?
'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

Sawyerfortyish

We have a 74 tj 230 cable skidder and get our parts at lyons equipment in Allenwood PA. They used to be a TJ dealer and now sell aftermarket parts for them.

bushmechanic

The transfer case is an Eaton and those brake systems are really good when serviced right.There is a brake on the front driveshaft as well as the rear one shown in your picture.From the master cylinder there are two brake lines one to the front brake and one to the rear brake.Inside the housing there are two brake disks and an actuator which is mechanical.I don't know if you ever saw farm tractor brakes but they are just like that.Two steel plates held together with springs and in between there are three steel balls,as the brake is actuated the plates rotate and as they do the balls move on ramps and the plates are pushed apart nipping the brake disks to the housing.The main problem with these are the oil seals in the transfer case.When they get bad you can see the gear oil comming out until it's all over the brakes.A lot of times the operator causes the problem by going on with the hand brakes on and heats the housing thus damaging the oil seal.If you install new seals make sure to put silicone on the splines because oil can seep out there also on old machines like that one.I have repaired lots of those old 230D's and I loved every minute of it,hope this is some help to you.The owners manual is not that good better to get the service manual.

PAFaller

I just did a setup on my 240A. I have heard it can be done with the case in the skidder, but its much easier to work on if you can take the whole thing out.  From there, the brake packs on the front and back are really easy to work on. As mentioned above if you are going to do the job you should buy the seals too, and do them while you are in there. The system is pretty simple once you see it, but describing it is a bit tricky. Essentially there 2 plates, and there are 5 teardrops machined into the inside of each plate, and hardened steel balls ride in them. When the brakes are applied the plates rotate slightly, the balls push them apart, and that in turn applies pressure to the pads. Release the brakes and the springs pull the plates back to starting position. When new and dry they work awesome. If you need new plates, they will probably need a little work before putting them back in. A retired 'jack mechanic told me to take a dremel and smooth out the machining in the dimples, and then apply a real thin coat of anti-seize. I did this when I rebuilt mine and 'knock on wood' have had over a month of trouble free service. Not sure where you can get parts, but here in PA we deal with Lyons Equipment or Blue Ridge Repair. Rumor has it Lyons is being absorbed into CJ Logging Equipment. Blue Ridge can be reached at (717) 423-6924. Good luck with your new machine.
It ain't easy...

Sawyerfortyish

Pafaller I heard that Lyons was havin a little trouble and had closed some of there locations. I just hope they can pull through. I'm not sure where to get parts if they go under. They have good connections for aftermarket parts even used parts. I broke an axle in my 230 and they had a used one at my door in less than 2 days.

aksawyer

Up here in Fairbanks I have been able to get for some of the older TJs at our local John Deere dealer(Airport Equipment Rental)and(Craig Tailor Equipment).They have been really good at getting me even the older hard to find parts.They have helped me to keep our JD 440A alive and well.Aksawyer

Randy88

If your having trouble with finding a service manual to explain it  and from the  pictures that setup looks identical to what case used on their 70 series tractors and small dozers for years, go to a case farm tractor dealer and have them print off the pages from a service or parts manual and use them, its a pretty simple system once your into it and working on them, just did a dozer last winter, most times the plunger cylinder is shot and needs to be new along with leaking seals and filling in with oil and you need to put in new fiber discs.    Not sure where the master pump is located on that machine but most times they need replacing as well, thier usually up by the brake pedal or attached to it, just follow the lines from the cylinder to the master pump, you can rebuild the pumps and cylinders but most times its just as cheap to put on new or rebuilt and get it over with.   I think the cylinder was like 50 bucks and the master was about 150 or something like it.  Not sure about aftermarket but maybe some internet surfing will locate a supplier.

Sunrise Farms

Thanks Everybody,

unfortunately I haven't had a ton of time to work on this over the weeks. I did buy a new master cylinder (something like $40) and bled the system. The pedal is now firm, and the brakes worked only very slightly. I had to really reef on the pedal to get anything to happen, and it hardly slowed down. After driving just a little in the yard, the pedal is stiff as a rock, and nothing seems to happen at all. If I take off, and reef on the pedal, it doesn't even pretend to stall or anything, it just continues going.

I tried adjusting the brakes as well. When someone else pressed the pedal, I noticed it pulled out on that shaft, so I figured if I turned the nuts so the shaft stuck out more, it would pull farther, and maybe work. Not the case. Is there some sort of actual adjustment procedure?

I'm pretty sure when I get time I'm gonna tear apart the back side brake system so I don't have to remove the whole transfer case, just so I can see what it looks like.
'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

bushmechanic

Hey Sunrise Farms good to see your at the "jack",I know there is a proper adjustment for the brakes something to do with a torque wrench I think but I never did it that way myself.I see you were on the right track for the adjustment with the bolts,I just think you didn't go far enough.What I used to do to adjust the brakes is tighten down the lower nut (the bigger nut)and check for tightness by using a prybar to manually apply the brake to make sure it worked and make sure it wasn't too tight.There is very little movement in the slave cylinder,just look at the length of it and you'll see what I mean,so it has to be adjusted in order to work.I think I have a parts diagram somewhere of the Eaton brakes on the 1979 230D, I'll look for it tomorrow,it shows everything in the brake system. 

Sunrise Farms

So, curiosity got the better of me, and I took apart the rear of the transfer case. Not too hard, and now I know what everything looks like. Everything seemed ok... the pads/ rotors (I don't know the actuall terms on this) seemed to have some meat left. They also seemed to spread apart alright when the shaft was pulled. Everything was extremelly dry/ rusty and there was a bunch of gunk. I think the seal was leaking some too, as there was some greasy crud stuff on that end, and in the bottom, but the pads and such seemed dry (grease in the pictures is from my fingers).

also, the splined sleeve that the pad goes over has a pretty sever groove worn it. The teeth don't slip there, but I imagine it can't be good.







'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

bushmechanic

There seems to be a little rust on your parts there,a good sandblasting should take care of that.I can't find my parts manual,but know you know what is there anyway.The brake rotor pads seem to be well worn because there is usually a defined groove in the pad but yours is almost wore smooth.Good luck with your repairs.

Sunrise Farms

Hey Guys,

I've had the brakes working for a while now, and they work good, thanks for the help.
So now that the brakes are fixed, i've been using it quite a bit, but have run into another problem, figured I'd ask here before starting a new thread.

When I more the boom left/ right, there is a breather tube coming from the bottom of the mast, and hydraulic fluid sprays out like its a pressurized hose... kinda weird. Any ideas? The best I can think of is the return is blocked somehow, causing the pressure to go through this breather?

Thanks Guys.
'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

furltech

  i have the same forwarder as you have except mine is an 83 i believe .it sounds like you have packing gone on your slew cylinders .and when you put pressure on it it bypasses and collects in the housing until it is full then you see it come out the breather .nothing a cylinder kit wont fix .

bushmechanic

Yeah furltech is exactly right on the money with that problem it's bypassing the slew cylinders.That boom you have is a 6025 Cranab and that spot where the oil is comming out is supposed to be filled with 80W-90 gear oil to lubricate the slew gears and the bottom bearing,the upper bushing has to be greased and you should see a grease nipple on the side of the slew housing.

Sunrise Farms

Hey Guys
Its been a while, and fortunatley I haven't needed to use the machine, cuz I haven't fixed it yet...
I'm still trying to get my mind around how these slew cylinders work. I realize there is a gear, and a slotted shaft that is moved forward/ backward to twist the boom. I don't understand why there is hydraulic hoses going to all four tubes? Is the slotted shaft actually part of the hydraulic cylinders? or does that stay in when I take them out?

Also, how do I go about taking this apart. I've been able to unscrew one tube, but it doesn't come all the way off. It unthreads, then I can pull it out about 6 inches, then it stops. Also, I've gotten one other tube loose, but the other two just won't budge. I've loosed all the big lock nut type things and they still won't twist. I've just been putting a bolt in each hole on the end, with a bar between them. Pretty much all I've accomplished is getting oil all over everything.

Thanks guys
'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

Ford_man

The pic of the brake looks like the brakes on a  1965 John Deere 2010 farm tractor

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

bushmechanic

Hey Sunrise Farms I didn't see your last post until now,those slew cylinders have to unscrew and the locknuts can be stuck on bad.I have had to weld large nuts on the ends of the cylinders and put the three quarter drive wrenches on it to get them to unscrew.Inside the cylinders there two slab gears with a piston on each end of both gears.The oil flows to one cylinder in the front and to the oppsite cylinder in the back on the other side of the boom base.This set-up will turn the boom by pushing on two cylinders at the same time and dumping the oppsite cylinders back to the hydraulic tank.You can also use a large pipe wrench to loosen the cylinders.You said one unscrewed and it wouldn't come out-make sure that you have the hydraulic line off or it will air lock,if it seems like it brings up solidly then the inside edge of the cylinder is dented inward probally due to some internal damage on the gears,you are going to have to get it off.When teeth break off the post it usually gives you this kind of damage.Watch for the o-rings that are inside the base and replace them also when you change the piston seals.good luck.   

Sunrise Farms

So I went and rented a heavy duty 36" pipe wrench, and I have three of the cylinder loose. The fourth I can't loosen for the life of me. I am able to tighten it further almost a full turn, then loosen it up, but then it gets to the same place and it won't budge. I put a 4 foot pipe on the end for a cheater bar, which didn't work, then I put another bar inside of that, and it still didn't budge. I'm afraid I'm going to break either the pipe wrench which I don't own, or the cylinder itself. Am I missing something?

As far as the cylinder that slid out but stopped, both the hose and the drain plug are out, and it appears the clyinder is about to come out but stops. It does seem like an air lock though. is it just a seal on the end of something about to pop off? I've got the system down, and it makes a lot of sense, but I just want to make sure that the slab gear is seperate from the cylinders? when all four are off the slab gears are going to stay in the base?

Also, what and where are these o-rings in the base? I found a little maybe 3/4" o-ring on the frame under the cylinder I unscrewed all the way, but I dunno if it was there already, or if it came from inside, and if it did, where inside. All I see is the slab gear and the round gear of the mast.

Thanks a lot guys- I hope I don't have to break down and hire someone to do this...
'84 timberjack 230a
'96 Woodmizer Lt40hdd40
Primero 8 forwarding trailer

furltech

Slab gear will stay in the stem when you have the cylinder housings off and there should be an o ring aound the end of the cylinder to keep oil from leaking out of the base .

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