Swingmill questions

[terrifictimbersllc]

Thanks in advance for reading this  :P  and even more for your comments.  

I think there is a decent amount of large log sawing I could be doing if I had the right equipment. So I've been looking at swingmills and am getting worried I might buy one soon.  My business is 100% portable, usually 30-80 miles drive, mostly one day jobs.   I saw with an LT-40 and for logs too big for the LT-40 I offer to chainsaw mill or freehand rip.  The inefficiency and brutal nature of this is usually a deal breaker for a distant and productive one day sawing job.  It also doesn't help that I really don't want to get this type of work.

So to handle a log too big for the LT-40,  I've been thinking about getting a Peterson 10" WPF with 30 HP Kohler, 13 foot track extensions, hi-lo option, electric winch, and clip on slabber.   My goal is to have what is necessary to, and by myself if necessary,  cut up a big tree, where it is lying in someone's back yard, in one day.  I want this equipment to fit in the back of my Ford F-350 long bed (tailgate down).     I am imagining that for certain spectacular logs I could produce slabs if desired or saw out 10x10 or 10 x 20 cants for resawing on the LT-40 into 10-20" wide quartersawn material on a second trip if the job was big enough or customer interest warrants.   Except maybe for warmup practice, or if someone wants a lot of greater than 20 foot beams, I am not going to be sawing a pile of logs that the LT-40 could handle.

I think I've read everything there is to read about swingmills here at FF and have seen all the Peterson and a lot of Lucas videos.

Questions:   is this mill really suitable for 100% portable use on one day jobs? Do any of you do one day portable jobs with a swinger?    Is transporting and setting this equipment up an ordeal?  Is setting up around a big log on irregular terrain very time consuming?   Is the 30 hp Kohler the way to go or should I consider fuel savings/power of a diesel?  Is Hi-Lo setup much extra hassle?  Overall is using the slabber much easier than cutting a slab or two off of a flat face with a 5' Alaskan mill and a Stihl 090?     Does anyone want to sell me a 10" WPF and also tell me why you don't want it anymore?  Are there other questions I should be asking?

[brdmkr]

I don't have an WPF; I have a Lucas.  I still think I can answer a few of your questions.

You can transport everything in your truck, but you will need racks for the rails.
Setting up over a log and sawing it in a day is no big deal and I have done it several times.  However, those large single logs that are laying on the ground in out-of-the-way places take time to mill.  I would think you would want to adjust rates for them.  I saw for hire, but have never actually charged for one of the really large logs.  It just works out that I have only sawn these logs for good friends, on shares, or in trade for someone else's time/labor.  I think I would charge an hourly rate for a customer with a really large log.

Uneven terrain is no problem with the Lucas, but I am not sure about the WPF.  I think the Lucas or Peterson ATS may be better suited for uneven terrain.

I would get all the HP I could.  So that 30 hp sounds great. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

You can transport everything in your truck, but you will need racks for the rails. 

Unfortunately my racks are just in the way for this operation.  WPF large frame is about 6' tall, I would have to push my racks to the front and either put the 13' rails on top of the WPF or in the bed hanging out 3' past the tailgate.  If I took the LT-40 too I would just put them on that.

Setting up over a log and sawing it in a day is no big deal and I have done it several times.  However, those large single logs that are laying on the ground in out-of-the-way places take time to mill.  I would think you would want to adjust rates for them.  I saw for hire, but have never actually charged for one of the really large logs.  It just works out that I have only sawn these logs for good friends, on shares, or in trade for someone else's time/labor.  I think I would charge an hourly rate for a customer with a really large log.

Uneven terrain is no problem with the Lucas, but I am not sure about the WPF.  I think the Lucas or Peterson ATS may be better suited for uneven terrain.

I think I would be looking at blocking up the skids/rails with blocks I'd have to carry with me.  I tell people that large logs are usually not the way to get the most economical lumber and yes your point is well taken, either hourly with an estimate of the hours, or a fixed price, or jack up to a safe bf rate.

I would get all the HP I could.  So that 30 hp sounds great. 

Same thinking here, a little overkill a good strategy. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Im A Lucas Man hence why i got the second one as i reckon you get alot more bang for your buck with them  ;)  ;D 8)  8) and im pretty sure Allan/Sigidi and Weisyboy will be along shortly to put their two bobs worth too  ;)  ;D as they both do pretty much fulltime portable milling with their Lucas's Mate  ;) I myself still do abit of it  ;) but i prefer working close to home these days as ive done years of trapsing allover the bloody countryside doing portable milling over the last 12 years Mate   ;) :D ;D 8)

I reckon the Peterson WPF would be more suited to a semi static milling operation and have looked at getting one  in the past but reckon they are alittle bulky ;) and  that being said the Lucas mills have won alot of the sawmill shotouts against wpfs and my thinking is that if  gonna cost 20% more to buy it bloody well cut alot quicker  ;)  :D

Production  I average around 400bft per hr on the Lucas in avv logs 10" to 26" dia sawing everything from inch to beams  with a Pb of over 650 an hr sawing and stacking on my own in 8' 4x4 pine dunnage its all the other stuff you have to do around a mill that wears you out at the end of the day when working solo the sawing the easy part   :D :D  ;)

I have been crunching numbers lately and im looking to go with running either one or both of the Lucas Mills in a Production situation in a shed sawing 8x2" and 8x3" in 8,9 &10's with two operators each on a pretty mild production figure of about 320 bft an hour per mill (prod bonus kicks in at that ;) )  in sawing oversize and case logs and its coming way out ahead of putting a huge amount of capital into a larger mill  i just have to use what i have to full capacity ;)  ;D ;D 8) 8)


I think a 10-30 would be your best bet as you will be in large logs in unknown terrain and the lucas frame is better suited to portable work as they break down into easy to handle sizes for one man milling without the use of any tools it will also fit into your Fe easily and being alloy the head units pretty lite and easy to unload and to tote around up someones driveway or through gateways  and into backyards and rough country  ;) also you dont realy nead any blocks with the lucas  i sometimes use four pieces of 8"X8" X 2 " One under each winch then use afew thinner shim pieces to square up my rails brefore i whack the head unit on and start sawing

Time for me to do a setup on my own over a log  takes me  around 15 min and im never in a rush  ;) :D ;D 8) its a pretty easy task to go log to log in bigger logs and still be productive with a swinger Mate  ;) ;D 8)

All this being said a Sawmills a personal choise when it comes down to it Mate  ;)  ;D

And Im Very Happy With Mine  ;D ;D 8)  8)

Regards Chris

[sigidi]

Well Chris just about said it all  ;D

When thinking of moving the mill around, just last week I was milling in one spot on Wednesday, finished 3.5cubic metre of log there, packed the mill up, drove 47k to my next site and set the mill up in the other spot, did all of this on my own no tailer/offsider and drove out and back in daylight. I use a dual cab tray back to move my second Lucas (Bo Derek the 1030) looking at a WPF it is a large 'box' to put in ya ute, so ya rails need to fit somewhere either side of it or the WPF in a trailer and the rails on ya ute. Also my impression of hi-lo tracks is much more suited for a static operation rather than mobile jobs, so in unfamiliar terrain, getting that 'lo' track set-up may be time consuming.

I have a mate about 2 hours drive from me who has the WPF 10" and he did some time helping out Carl (aka Weisyboy) made a comment about how quick/easy it was to pack up Carl's Lucas as compared to his Peterson.

Like Chris said it is a personal thing - see what others have to say, but either way I like ya thinking about getting a swingmill 8) ;)

[Captain]

Why don't you drive an hour up to my place and see for yourself?  I can even pull out the "large" frame for you, equivalent to the 10" mill in size.

Captain

[Ianab]

I've got an old WPF, and although I don't saw commercially, all my sawing is "day trip" stuff.

The big difference you will notice? You will smile when you see those big log  :D

Your best days will be when you can drive up beside a couple of nice big logs on flat ground, unload the mill and set up around the log. In 15mins the saw is running and you can just keep on sawing down to the bottom slab. 15mins seems like a long setup time, but if you are going to be sawing non-stop for a couple of hours, so what. Spend 5 mins loading a medium size log onto the Woodmizer  every 30 mins and it's the same time spent.

More of a hassle is having to lug the mill to a log in an awkward spot. The sawhead is the only heavy part, and thats on wheels so it's no big deal on reasonable ground. All the other parts are an easy single person carry. So if you need to carry the mill into a back yard it's no big deal. I've hauled my mill on a little trailer behind a quad bike, took 2 trips over about 1/2 mile of muddy farm track, but we got 'r done.

Move the logs or move the mill? I decide which is easier and quicker. If you can roll a new log under the mill and be sawing again in 5mins, go that way. If you are going to be busting your gut for 15min moving a big log, move the mill, it's easier and isn't hard work.

The hi-lo track setup seems pretty easy to set up, but you will use that when you are setting up beside a stack of smaller logs and rolling them under the mill. So with a bandmill thats less likely for you. But I can imagine jobs with one big log that takes all morning and a handful of smaller ones. You will probably just set up the swingblade and take care of them to save a second trip.   A swingblade can saw 12-24" logs perfectly OK. Your bandsaw might have a small advantage, but not so much that you wont saw them if you are on site.

Likewise sawing cants and resawing later sounds like a good idea on paper, until you count the double handling and if you get a cant that moves a bit due to internal tension then any production gain is lost in the resawing. I think you will find that you just end up slicing the log into 8x1s with the swingblade. The offloader will be complaining by the end of the log, but not as much as if they are moving 10x10s  ;D

I don't have a slabber, but they seem pretty easy to use. All you really need to do is lean in the mill to keep some feed pressure on the bar. Not exactly going to work up a sweat, and at least you are standing up. Maybe a little more work that propping up the bar in the tavern after work, but not by much.  ;)

More HP is good, but there is a limit as to how much one small blade can actually use efficiently. The 27-30hp seems to be plenty. More than that and they seem to start getting heat and distortion issues with the blades. Bigger engine and you loose portability as well.

Anyway, with both mills you will have the best of both worlds.

Ian

[mcfcfan]

So to handle a log too big for the LT-40,  I've been thinking about getting a Peterson 10" WPF with 30 HP Kohler, 13 foot track extensions, hi-lo option, electric winch, and clip on slabber.   My goal is to have what is necessary to, and by myself if necessary,  cut up a big tree, where it is lying in

Hi Terrifictimbersllc,
Lee here from Petersons, just in case you may be unaware, we also have a 38Hp Kohler for the 10 inch mills. 8)
Flick me a PM if you would like to discuss.
Regards
Lee

[terrifictimbersllc]

Thanks all so far for comments.  Cap'n might take you up on that but not tonite I'm in Boston waiting for train back to mystic they won't stop at your place for me. Typing on this phone not fun. Just visited my son in phd chem program at harvard. Walked thru the " yahd" there told him I'd like to cut up those big trees and explained importance of swing mill. be in touch better tomorrow. Thanks again all!!! 

[bandmiller2]

TT,can't help you on the swinger part but why not set up a medium duty trailer to move the Peterson around.You could leave it all loaded with everything you need when a job comes up just hook up.It will save you high lifting the rails and the head could br rolled off a ramp. Frank C.

[weisyboy]

iv got an old lucas and am looking at buying a second.

i do full time mobile work. 5 days a week.

i have not found a job i could not do.

i can get my mill anyware with a 1m wide gate, we have even lifted it in over a 6' high fence by hand.

it takes us 10 mins to set up on any terrain,

ill see if i have any pics of the mill set up in some tight spots.

i have made a custom trailer for my mill that fits everything neatly, all i have to do is hook her up and drive away.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Why don't you drive an hour up to my place and see for yourself?  I can even pull out the "large" frame for you, equivalent to the 10" mill in size.

Captain

captain, send me a pm want to take you up on your offer, tx dennis

[terrifictimbersllc]

Hi Terrifictimbersllc,
Lee here from Petersons, just in case you may be unaware, we also have a 38Hp Kohler for the 10 inch mills. 8)
Flick me a PM if you would like to discuss.
Regards
Lee

Thanks,   thinking I'd not want to deal with the extra weight and fuel consumption of a 38 vs the 30, being a manual push mill not sure I'd always be getting full benefit of extra power (getting tired etc).

[terrifictimbersllc]

TT,can't help you on the swinger part but why not set up a medium duty trailer to move the Peterson around.You could leave it all loaded with everything you need when a job comes up just hook up.It will save you high lifting the rails and the head could br rolled off a ramp. Frank C.

This is a great option if I give up the idea of ever getting a car and putting it in the garage instead.  :'( :'( :'(Would sure save  a lot of time.  With a trailer along I can always take the logging arch or bring back lumber or firewood in the truck if I want. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

I've got an old WPF, and although I don't saw commercially, all my sawing is "day trip" stuff.

The big difference you will notice? You will smile when you see those big log  :D

:)yes, what a difference compared to being afraid someone want me to saw up that big log for them

[terrifictimbersllc]

ill see if i have any pics of the mill set up in some tight spots.

i have made a custom trailer for my mill that fits everything neatly, all i have to do is hook her up and drive away.

Thanks and sure interested in the pix.

[terrifictimbersllc]

So you swingmill guys are you using metal detectors, and what do you do when you find metal?  See how close you can get without hitting it?  Dig for it? Saw until you hit it with an older blade? 

On the wood-mizer I flip the log and saw around it as much as possible then at the end, if a high quality log just figure on paying for a band or two (usually the customer's choice, and my recommendation).  I don't dig for metal if I can't see the stain or other visual evidence, that's ruining a board for sure and maybe not finding the metal, and wasting time.

[Firebass]

I was cutting this weekend on some logs that I didn't know the origin of ....  Bad Idea in my case  I cut a 3/4" water pipe length ways 3 to 4 inches before I could shut it down.  All the carbides were broke or gone and the place where the carbide mounts is distorted fairly bad.. But I might be able to save it...  If I can it's not a real big deal. and if I can't well I've cut 20 or 30 thousand Bf with that blade so I got my money's worth.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Yikes that's a nasty one.  Hope it works out.  What kind of torch do you use?

[weisyboy]

i dotn metal detect and if i did i would cut half the logs i do.

i charge fro blades. $55 for each blade s thats what it costs to get them retipped.

i have done some bad logs,

38 3" nails in one.
a hills hoist in another
glass bottles (metal detectors dont find these)
12" x 1" botls
i also do recycled timber with it. i did a thread recently on one job.

i could kill people who put nails in trees.

i can put my own tips on if i need to but i prefer to get them done by a professional.

its amazing how many nails you can hit before you need to change baldes. the log with the 38 nails i used one blade, by the end it wasnt cutting hardly at all but it gone the bugger done.

[sigidi]

I don't use a metal detector either.

To date the worst metal I have had, has been when milling for another miller  :( killed 4 blades in two and a half days, to the point where I only had 2 teeth left on all the 4 blades  ;D every now and then I hit a bit of metal, but, I just take it as part of the job. I charge what it costs me to get the saw re-tipped so I don't end up losing anything, but I still get worked up when I hit metal  :D

[Firebass]

Yikes that's a nasty one.  Hope it works out.  What kind of torch do you use?

I prefer a small cutting torch but a good sized welding tip works well also.  (Oxyacetylene)

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I use a 1/4 inch torch with oxcyacetylene also and use the lucas jig for retipping both the 8" and 10" saws and at $2.20 au per tip its a pretty its a good option to retip yourself at $11 per saw plus time and gas you just have to make sure that you dont put too mutch heat into the saw plate and focus most of it into the tip it akes me around 45 min to do a reseat and full tip myself

Regards Chris

[weisyboy]

i retip if i have to (prefer not to) i use oxy/lpg with welding tip. takes me 20 mins to do a blade, using lucas multi jig. ;D

[terrifictimbersllc]

Thanks guys. I've got oxyacetylene and a welding set with several tips.  Is it hard to get good at this, there's no point in doing it myself if the blade doesn't cut like new when I'm done  : Meadows what's a "reseat", you can tell I've no experience with big circular blades.  :