Simon blade for M-14

[Birk-man]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and new to the Belsaw M-14.  I recently found an M-14 still in it's crate on eBay and am slowly getting organized to set it up on my 40 acres of forest near Corvallis, Oregon.

Before I even have the parts so out of the crate, I have a few questions that would benefit from the experience of the members of this forum.

Blade
The blade is still in a crate with the shipping label to the original purchaser.  Crate has stenciled text:

Simon (painted in red)

40 8-9 13/8 24 RH ?0 (? indicates wood is damaged and a letter or number could have been under the damaged area)

9858

6604342-05 (05 is hand written )

The blade measures 40 inches in diameter so that would be the initial 40 in the first number series.

8-9 ?? - I have no idea what this might be

13/8 is likely the hole size for mounting on the drive shaft - 1 5/8"

24 is the number of inserted teeth

RH  is for Right Hand??

Not sure if there was another number in this group or not - the wood was damaged

9858 - any thoughts on what this number might be?

6604342-05 -  this seems likely to be a batch number made into a serial number by handwriting the 05??

Blade speed

In reading through the forum I am guessing that the blade was intended to run off a tractor PTO at a speed around 540 RPM.  Does that seem right?

Practical log length for M-14

The reprinted booklet that came with my saw has several configurations for track lengths.  It seems to me that there is a practical limit to how long a log can be accurately cut on the M-14 and I would design my track length to be just long enough for the  'longest log'.  Do users of this type of mill have a recommendation based on their experience? 

I will be cutting mostly Douglas fir and maybe some white fir and have trees in all diameters to chose from.  I hope to cut timbers, dimension lumber and siding.

Power plant

I found a 3 cylinder, 50 hp Deutz F3L 912 air-cooled diesel as a power source. I'll need to reduce the shaft speed from the engine's 2000 rpm to the blade's 540.  I was thinking of v-belts and pulleys but am completely open to other suggestions, especially if they are cheaper or easier to set up!

I appreciate any and all comments!

Birk-man

[Joe Lallande]

I recently converted my Belsaw M-14 flat belt drive to V-belts and pullies.  My wife has been trying for a week to post pictures on this site. If I am still unable to post pictures I will send them to you as a PM. Contact the people at Timberking. They bought out Belsaw and have been very helpful in supplying me with small parts for my old mill. Also download a copy of Stanford J. Lunstrum's Circular Sawmills book. It contains very useful information on v-belts and pullies. My Belsaw runs at 600 rpm and is powered by a 60 HPO Oliver diesel. Good luck!

[Ron Wenrich]

It is probably a Simonds saw.  The markings are 40 8-9 13/8 24 RH ?0

You're right it is a 40" saw, 8-9 is the gauge of the saw.  1 3/8 might be the mandrel size, but that sounds awful small to me.  But, I have always run bigger mandrels.  It might be right for an M-14.  24 teeth, Right Hand, but the ?0 is the speed the saw is hammered for.  9858 is probably the serial number.

On all the saws that I've gotten, it has the speed stamped into the saw along with all the other info.  540 is a pretty common speed on most saws.

50 hp might be a little on the light side, but it will depend on the size of logs you're planning on cutting.  A 40" saw will probably have a maximum cut of 15".  The rule of thumb is 5hp per inch of cut.  So, that would be a minimum of 75 hp as a recommendation.  It doesn't mean that the 50 hp won't work, but you won't be able to get the feed rates you want.  Sawing softwoods is a lot different than sawing hardwoods.  

[RockyMountainSawyer]

Looks like a fun project ahead!  Try to find an old cat engine, they should be fairly common up there. I have two of them a d13 and a d318, I haven't started the d318 yet but the d13 powers my resurected circle mill. I love it because it is more power than i'll ever need and runs on about 10 gallons of diesel per day.

[captain_crunch]

Bellsaws must run on a lower HP belt ratio I have a 46 in blade with a max cut of 17 1/2 in. In Doug Fir I have cut 24 in by 18 logs(have to finish with power saw) and my power is a Ford 3000 rated at 42 hp and power ain't an issue. Granted it grunts a mite but lack of power don't seem to be an issue. My teeth are 3/8 also. With Doug fir unless it is on Flat ground avoid butt cuts due to Timber bind.

[RockyMountainSawyer]

 how long of a carriage does it have? i just resently purchased an old bellsaw and it only has a 6 foot carriage so a 10 foot log is all the longer i could ever go on it.

[captain_crunch]

My carrage has been stretched and has 3 knees (head blocks) and is 12 ft long

[bandmiller2]

Birk,I believe your arbor is 1 3/8", belsaw uses a different size arbor hole than the industry standard of 2". I think when Belsaw started out they used modified cordwood blades as 1 3/8 is standard for those saws,also it kept the cost of the arbor and its bearings down.I you do get a standard headsaw its an easy matter to get a 1 3/8 to 2" bushing to put the big hole on the small pole. Frank C.

[coastlogger]

re arbor hole size: I guess I must be missing something but why dont you  justMEASURE it?

[rpg52]

My Belsaw has a 1 3/8" arbor, though the shaft is larger.  Also no pins for what ever reason.  I used a Ford differential to reduce the speed from 1800 rpm to 600 for the arbor speed.  It has a pto shaft to drive the arbor.

Ray

[Birk-man]

Thanks for all the replies - it has all been food for thought.

I did get Lunstrum's booklet.  He says it is desirable to have the option for running the blade a little faster for cutting harder woods.  I'll mostly be cutting Douglas-fir but have Madrones and Bigleaf Maples on my place too.

If I run the engine at full speed the tach shows 2200 rpm.  I can get a v-belt and pulley system that will slow that down to 600 rpm on the blade speed.  That same configuration would give me 540 rpm on the blade with the engine at 1950 rpm on the engine. Markings on the blade crate are unclear but it seems likely my 40" blade is hammered for 540 rpm since it was intended to go on an M-14 sawmill powered by a tractor PTO.

Am I on the right track to preserve the higher blade speed option for harder woods or should I scrap that idea and design my pulley system to give me the 540 blade rpm at the top engine speed?

Your experience and hard-won words of wisdom appreciated!

Peter Wendel

[bandmiller2]

Peter,hammered saw speed is not exact very likely the saw will cut fine at 600 rpm you could belt it for 540 and speed the engine up so your cutting at 600 for hardwood.I have an old simonds  44" that was hammered for 540 thats very happy at 600. Frank C.

[apm]

If you're going to use the Deutz with vee belts and pulleys, you're going to need to find a way to reverse the direction the saw turns. A tractor PTO, that the Belsaw was designed for turns the opposite direction of your Deutz engine. You'll need to turn your power unit "backwards" by using jack shafts, etc. Or, as was previously mentioned an auto differential will allow you to change direction and reduce speed at the same time. Just going to require a little creativity. If you use flat belts, you can mount your engine at the end of your mill and run the saw the right direction. Don't think you can get vee belts long enough to accomplish that.

Greg

[Birk-man]

apm,

I did not mention that the Deutz already has a 1.41:1 reversing speed reducer attached.  That will allow me to place the power plant on the back side (non-operator side) of the mill track and have the power plant's output shaft direction match the blade direction.

[rpg52]

Birk-man,
Some other issues that I am dealing with currently.  You'll need some way of dis-engaging the clutch and/or turning down the throttle.  I plan to use 1/4" cords with pulleys to dis-engage the clutch.  Another issue is sawdust, I'm currently building a sawdust drag, using an electric motor, conveyor chain, etc.  I also have a piece of Lexan to mount between my self and the saw blade, just in case.  Also, a board mounted ~1/2" from the blade, below it to keep anything from being dragged down.  I'll be putting mine on hinges with a kick lever to keep it clear.

  Lots to think about.  My M-14 has been ready to cut for a couple years, but I'm hesitant without any safety features.
Ray

[Birk-man]

Ray,

Thanks for the suggestions -

I have two lever handles off an old piece of farming equipment that I am planning to use as the operator end of the linkage to the clutch and throttle.  I'm not sure where the most out of the way place is to locate them. I think I want them immediately accessible when needed for a quick shutdown or disengagement but want them to be out of the way and out of harms way the rest of the time. 

The engine has a separate "dashboard" with Tach, Head Temp, Oil Pressure and Oil Light as well as the ignition switch. The throttle is a cable & sheath mechanism (like a bicycle brake cable only more robust) that I am planning to replace with a mechanical linkage of some kind.  The other gauges, lights and switches are all electronic so I can just add longer wires. Have to find a spot for that unit also - handy, visible and safely out of the way.

I'd like to see what you have going with your sawdust drag - that is a refinement I want to add some time later.  I spent my summers in college working on the utility crew in a big Weyerhauser mill.  I spent a lot of time shoveling the sawdust that their drag system missed.  Do you have any photos of what you are setting up for your drag system?

The Lexan shield seems like a great idea.  The plans I got with my M-14 describe a hardware cloth (wire screen) assembly to protect the operator from flying debris coming off the blade.  Lexan might better serve this purpose , at least till it gets so scratched up you can't see through it anymore!  Those plans also showed a protective fence built around the blade area to keep people away from the danger zone.

I'm not sure I understand your idea about the board 1/2" from the blade.  This might be a case of a picture being worth 1000 words?

Thanks for bringing up these ideas - you are obviously further into this than I am if you've been ready to cut for a while.

Here's a thought for you about your 1/4" cords.  Think about using a really low-stretch type of line - the type that sailors use for halyards.  You could get by with much smaller diameter cord and use smaller pulleys too.  If you know any sailors who have been at it a while they might have a 'Sailboat Jewelry' box of older blocks & pulleys. You can see a selection of line at these sites or go visit a West Marine store if you have one in your area.

http://www.layline.com/Dinghy-Line/#&Layline[1][191]=Halyards

http://www.apsltd.com/c-1599-excel-vectran-marlow.aspx



Peter

[rpg52]

Thanks Peter,

I alternate between analysis paralysis and just going for it.  Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to work around one of these machines before and am a little paranoid.  It doesn't help that my wife is completely paranoid about it.  On the other hand, I have been working around farm and woodworking equipment for decades, and still have all my fingers, toes and limbs intact. 

Let me explain again about the board by the saw blade.  I was tipped off about it from a fellow in Connecticut from whom I got a more recent Belsaw manual.  (My manual was from the 1960's - pretty crude).   I haven't yet built it, so can't show a photo.  There was a photo in the manual though that showed several 2X boards mounted on the horizontal parts of the pipe frame that encloses the sawblade. 

These boards, mounted just below level of the mandrel nut, prevents any boards or chunks of bark from getting carried below the cutting level of the blade. 
Occasionally a small knot or other chunk can get caught between the blade and the boards.  When this happens, if the board can swivel on hinges away from the sawblade, allowing the chunk to fall and preventing the blade from overheating or from having to shut everything down.  Does that make sense?

Regarding the sawdust drag - I'm about to do the most critical part, pouring a concrete foundation that will support two steel extensions to carry the sawdust into the air over a road - where I hope to park a trailer, so most of the sawdust will pile up there, easy to take away and distribute.  Not much sense in showing the first part - just some 2X angle iron mounted in concrete where I'll be mounting shafts with cogs, pulleys to drive it, and pillow block bearings on the shafts.  I have most of the pieces, but am slow about assembling it.  I'll try to take some photos when I'm a little closer.  Still need a bit of machine work done on the shafts too, a couple keyways and cutting the shaft to length.

Ray

[paul case]

rpg52,
sounds like its all coming together. the m-14 i had was equiped with an extra pulley on the mandrel shaft opposite the bladefor running a sawdust chain. mine had a modified lawnmower transaxle to drive the chain. with the power unit already running why not use it for everything? the one i had worked real well. just wondering? pc

[rpg52]

Paul,

I'm not sure if it is because mine was from the '60's, or just an option that wasn't exercised by whoever bought it back then.  I thought about adding another pulley to the mandrel, but I'd probably have to find one, and I'd need some long belts to transfer the power down to the drag.  Also, it has been suggested that it might be handy occasionally to be able to run the drag when the saw isn't turning, just to clear things out.  Haven't yet made a decision, but have the motor already, but still have to fabricate mounts for it.

Ray   

[bandmiller2]

Peter,in reguards to the lexan, what I call flak screen,it works but as you suspected gets stuff slung on it and you will always have to be cleaning it.What works is a screen like you put in front of a fireplace or chainmail type conveyer chain,only needs to be 16" wide or so just between your face and the saw.What I did was to suspend it from the overhead so it could swing yet not hit the saw,it helps absorb impacts,wack it with a piece of sticking to clean it.The hinged board on your side of the saw is to quickly remove pieces of whatever that rub the saw,this is important as it will heat the plate quickly and cause many problems.Frank C.

[apm]

Birk-Man,
Any chance of you posting a picture of the power unit, showing the speed reducer/reverser. Sounds like an idea I'd like to try, but have never seen one like it.

Greg

[rpg52]

apm,

Generally the speed reduction, reverser unit is made for your particular engine, usually by the manufacturer.  There were ones available as an option for Detroit Diesels and likely others.  I think they were often used in marine applications but likely for other reasons too.  If there was one made for your particular engine, you might be able to find it but it likely would take some looking.
Ray

[Birk-man]

Greg,

I put up a picture of the Deutz diesel in the galleries.  It's my first upload, please let me know if you are successful finding it!

This engine ran a hydraulic pump on an oil recycling tank trailer.  It was used to suck up used oil at collection sites and then to off-load the full tank at the processing center.  It seems to have low wear and shows about 1800 hours on the meter.  It started right up once I had a strong enough battery connected and had bled the fuel system correctly.

The bell housing/clutch assembly is SAE#3  and about 18" in diameter.  It's connected to the Funk reversing speed reducer that steps down the speed 1.41 to 1.

Peter

[rpg52]

Birk-man
I don't think your upload worked.  At least I couldn't find it.  Usually there is a link below your name when you post.  I've done it successfully once, but the procedure has changed since then.  Maybe someone will post a link to a tutorial again? 
Ray   

[Birk-man]

Does this link get you to the picture of the Deutz?

   https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-86450

Peter

[apm]

The link worked, Birk-Man. Thanks, that's an interesting looking setup. I'm currently setting up a Deutz 6 cylinder turbo unit for my little Belsaw. I wasn't aware of that type output.

Greg

[captain_crunch]

Forklifts and Lumber carriers also had reversers on the manual transmissions