Keeping track of the board feet

[malcolmtent]

Well, this game is getting interesting. I haven't even had a chance to tell you guys that I've opened for business, and already a golf course wants me to cut up a couple hundred logs and pay by the board foot! We're looking at 20 - 30 THOUSAND feet here, by the client's estimate.

That's fine, but how do you all actually keep track of the boards produced every day? Just count them up at the end? Keep a running total? Have a clipboard hanging on your mill and write down each board as it comes off the mill? (That sounds too intrusive to a good sawing rhythm.)

What constitues a board that is billable? No bark at all? No splits at all? I ask because this weekend I was cutting some 14' spruce boards and some of them had small splits somewhere along the length. The client was happy to take them because he knew he could still use them. And it seems a shame to burn them or chip them. And I want to get paid for as many cuts as possible, obviously. Are these billable? Half-price? It's not my fault the log has splits, but is losing the revenue just part of the game?

Sorry, guys, but there's going to be a lot of questions over the summer as this all unfolds.

Thanks in advance,

Malcolm

[ohsoloco]

I stack the lumber on some 6x6's (so I can pick the stack up with my loader).  I make the stacks 4' wide.  One layer may be 47", one may be 49"...I do my best to balance it out.  Then I just count the layers.  If I'm cutting 8' logs then each layer will be 32 bd. ft. 

[fishpharmer]

Wow, Malcolm you bit off alot.  I guess you like your Lucas?

Not much experience on keeping track of board feet.  But I can point you in the right direction.

Here is a link to some excellent sawmill business advice...
http://www.tomssaw.com/tutorials.shtml

[malcolmtent]

Wow, Malcolm you bit off alot. 

It bit me! I put a single ad on Craigs List two months ago just to gauge the market, and the client called me from that ad today. Be careful what you ask for......

I guess you like your Lucas?

So far, I'd have to say I'm very pleased with it.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

I bill by the board foot,good or bad boards.  It's their logs, if they want to bring you junk that's going to be their problem. If a customer brings me a bad log I let him know up front that it's probably not worth sawing.  Most of the time they want it sawed anyway.  If they have a lot of logs I will let some bad boards slide by, but I do a lot of urban logs in small lots so it doesn't happen often.

[nas]

If I am sawing by the board foot I scale the log when it comes on the mill International scale.  No deductions for rot or sweep etc unless something is worked out with the customer. 

Nick

[Bibbyman]

When we custom saw someone else's logs, I use the, "If you bring an ugly girl to the dance, you take the same ugly girl back home with you." logic.  In other words,  if the logs produce junk, then they pay the same for that board as the good boards.  After all,  it takes you just as much time and effort to saw a junk board as it does for a you to saw a good log.  I've had too many customers bring me logs that were not worth sawing and when I mention it, they'd say; "Well, saw it anyway and see what it'll make."  Then I say, "If I saw it, you pay for it.  Good or not."  

So , yes, include boards with defects,  often times they can be cut down and used.

We try to sort the logs going onto the mill by length.  Then we make the bundles the same width - usually 42" wide.  Then when we offbear onto the stack we try to make the layers come out the same width or near as possible.  Then we figure the BF of each layer and count the layers to give us the total BF in that bundle.  We know how much our loader can handle so we stop at around 700 BF (hardwood).  Mary has a chart scribed on the sawmill wall with how many layers it takes to make a bundle so long and come up with the amount we can safely lift.

[Brucer]

You have to figure out what works for your situation. Even when you've got a workable system, if you change your setup, your method of tallying may no longer work well.

For example, I saw timbers to order, working from a cut list. Side lumber gets sawn into a few standard sizes (1x4, 1x6, 1x8). The cut list is stuck to the side of the mill with a couple of magnets -- I just mark each piece with the day's date when I cut it. That takes care of the timbers. The 1" side lumber gets piled by length, 1'-8" wide, with the ends closest to me flush. That particular width lets me pile almost any combination of widths while keeping the pile level. So at the end of the day I just have to count the layers and multiply by the length and pile width and divide by 12. When I tally, I use a lumber crayon to mark each board/row as I count it.

That worked great -- until I bought the edger. Now I have to keep track of boards that come off the mill already cut to width, and boards that come off the edger (which may get processed on a different day from when I sawed the flitches). That complicates things -- now I rely on my crayon marking a lot more.

I also hired a part time helper recently. She helps with the edging and runs the chop saw. So now between us we have to make sure I've tallied the wood before she trims off the crayon marks with the chop saw.

If you're working alone, you can usually devise a system that works. As soon as other people get involved, especially customers, you have to lay down some rules. I've only once had a customer try to cheat me, but a lot of customers have inadvertently screwed up my count.

[Chuck White]

As we are sawing, we take each size board, for example; 1x4, 1x6, 1x8, 1x10, 1x12, etc and stack separately.

So, at the end of the day, we count the number of 1x4's, 1x6's etc and tally the total for each size.

This way, we will get an exact board footage count.

At the end of the day, we also take a crayon and mark the top board on each pile.
That way, if the customer picks up some of the lumber, we and he knows that the lumber has been counted.

[Larry]

What constitues a board that is billable? No bark at all? No splits at all? I ask because this weekend I was cutting some 14' spruce boards and some of them had small splits somewhere along the length.

I pick up a lumber order from a lumber yard.  A few boards may be perfect, most have some form of bow, crook, or warp.  Some will have splits, wane, and maybe even a little bark.  The lumber yard charges me the same price for the good, bad, and ugly.

Watch a skilled carpenter at work...he will sight down a board and align the boards in a stud wall with the crook up.  Floor joists with the crook up.  Those boards too ugly or twisted for those uses may end up as a jack stud or blocking.  All of the boards end up being good boards as the carpenter finds a places to use each board.

A little discussion with the customer before sawing may also help align your vision as to there expectations.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Im lucky enough to do mine in either Pack lot or Order lots which is pretty dang easy just keep cutting till the orders done For daily tallys make all packs the same length and section size (in either Block pack or Sticked out depending on the costomer spec ) A quick way is to mark across the row with crayon or paint (using a different color for each day or bill you put in ) This method can also be used for calculating recovery rates from logs ;)

How i work in garden sleepers is an 8x3" 8' has 2bft per liner foot so an 8' = 16 bft x 5 wide = 80bft per row and i do my packs in 30'35&40 pcs so a 30 pack has 6 rows or 480 bft per pack a 35 has 7 rows or 560bft and a 40 pack has 8 rows or  640bft i do about 3 to 4 packs per day on my own and after a while of doing it Mate you will get a feel for how your going over the day  ;) I also dont cut a huge amount of recovery sizes anymore these days mainly 2x1 sticks 4x1,6x1 and some 3x2 ,4x3 and 3x3s for dunnage  ;)

Its good to see your happy with your Lucas you will find 99.9999% of us are Mate  :D ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris

[terrifictimbersllc]

First congratulations on a big pile of logs to saw on a nice day in a nice location.  Take a pitching wedge with you for your breaks!   I  have an agreement or provide a statement to the customer in advance with all the details.   The details will  affect how you charge over time and if any disagreements arise.   Most of my work is hourly with customer helping, and when I work alone on bigger jobs, by board foot of finished boards.    It is one thing to be brought iffy logs, and to discuss them with the customer who wants them sawn anyway, that i would charge for.  But whether you charge for rotten boards from rotten logs I think can have something to do with the expertise of the person who piles up the logs for you, whether this is the customer or not, whether the customer is knowledgable or not about judging log quality.  True you can charge for them if this is the agreement, but you are talking about a huge pile of logs, and somewhere I think the sawyer has some responsibility about whether he carefully and knowingly saws up a bad log into bad boards or alternatively gets out the chainsaw and gets it off the mill.  It is also better for business if the boards the customer gets are high quality.   I have had jobs where I said I would charge for all boards, but in the end when boards which looked ok as they were being sawn from an iffy log, fall apart as they are dropped onto the pile, at the end of the day I have not counted or discounted these boards, partly  because I felt it was my mistake sawing them,  and partly because it just didn't seem right to charge for them.    If you can walk the property and give an idea to the customer about what logs aren't worth milling this is helpful.   Also you may need an agreement about work involved in getting rid of any bad logs because they are usually in the way.   As far as adding up boards, I keep a clipboard with a pre-printed blank sheet having a grid with columns for qty, thickness, width, length, bf each, bf total columns and fill it in the boards as I saw, keeping it on my truck tailgate which is my office, usually about 3 feet behind me.  Make the quantity column wide so you can make a mark for each board of that size.   Then it takes about a half hour to total everything at the end at the bottom of the list, and very little time otherwise during the day.  If you use a carbon paper (14 cents each for a pack at Staples, cheapest Xerox machine there is) you can make a copy of this sheet for both of you and give it with the bill.  Since often you are sawing out same thickness and length boards from a log you can just add widths in inches together as in your head as you saw up quite a few boards and when you get to the end (say 180" of 10' ) you divide by 12 (15) and multiply by 10 to get 150 board feet of random width boards. But it is nasty when you forget, and accurately counting a whole pile unless you are dead stacking them evenly somehow (suggested above) takes a lot of time.  It always seems a pain to make this list, but it affects the customer's pocketbook and my reputation.   I have never even a discussion over the accuracy of the count.    Anyway your story is inspiring so far and good luck!!!!

[malcolmtent]

(using a different color for each day or bill you put in ) 

Now that tip alone is worth a case of beer, which is the international currency. Come and get it......!

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I ment to say somthing about the logs too and terrific timbers just about said it all Mate  ;) ;D ;D

some logs are better just dumped strait in the burn pile due to too many defects  ;) and some eg with rot will yeald some great timber out of the good side then pick the rest up and dump it  ;) ;D 8) 8)with splits and knots the best way to deal with them on a lucas or any mill for that matter  ;) is splits go either vertical if you looking for wide boards in the center 3rd of the log or horizontal if  your cutting smaller section sizes you just aim to take the split out in a 1 1/2 or 2" pass Mate

The largest knot or dead one goes at 45 deg from horizontal to reduce its affect on single  and multipal pieces of timber  ;) if you vertical or horizontal with it you will have afew boards that wont meet grade and also break in half  on you :(

do you have acess to a loader on this job or are you Armstronging it  ??? how big are they lengths and so on it sounds like a good job to be on for a first one too Mate  ;D ;D 8)

(using a different color for each day or bill you put in )  

Now that tip alone is worth a case of beer, which is the international currency. Come and get it......!

I like your Style  You will fit Rite in here Mate  ;) ;) :D :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) I have plans of moving to the Usa and doing some sawing there for afew years most likely in the next 6 to 12  months so illl be taking you up on it for sure Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris

[malcolmtent]

do you have acess to a loader on this job or are you Armstronging it  ??? how big are they lengths and so on it sounds like a good job to be on for a first one too Mate  ;D ;D 8)

The client is very knowledgeable - at least, HE thinks so :D So far, we have good communication. He's clear that he wants me to make money from the job, which is nice. And his golf club just wants a big pile of wood turned into dimensional and fire-wood.

I have about 20 decent pines to cut first, and then a whole lotta who knows what, and that's where I'm going to adopt your split technique, Chris.

The client has a loader and will be staging logs for me in advance, so all I'll have to do is roll them under the mill, one or two at a time. It's a nice flat work area, too.

It's not a done deal yet – I have to find liability insurance, and the managing committee of the club has to sign-off, so we'll see. But it's an interesting process, if nothing else.

[tyb525]

Malcomtent,

That is a biiggg sawing job! Get ready for some hard work! ;D That hard work pays off though. 8)

Make sure to take a picture or two during a break, or else it never happened!

Chris, where will you be coming to in the USA?

[Meadows Miller]

Gday Again now we are onto rough grading  ;) :D ;D 8)

Pappas and Dads rule of thumb that was taught since i could walk was If in doubt chuck it out n it usually kicks in before you run outa grade   ;) :D ;D ;D 8)


With wane (bark) 1/3 of the width no more than 1/3 the thickness  should see you rite

Splits under 1/8th wide no more than 1/2 the depth of the thickness of the piece and 1/4 the width deep  ;) end splits that go all the way from edge to edge or face to face just put into the next length down pack or  you can also crayon dock as you go  ;D but thats illiagal in aust as you have to supply it docked at the graded length  ;) it should be ok with costom sawing overthere to do it ;)

Knots from face to face (thickness) no more than 1/3rd the width of the worst face . For edge to edge spike knots across the whole face no more than 1/4 the thickness of the piece

Rot your eye will be the judge of that a littles OK  but not huge ammounts  ;)

Being in control of the mill im pretty sure you will turn out better than Timber that those rough guides i have just given you to go by and sure you will see the odd log that will yeld afew pieces below that grade but you cant help that sometimes Mate

Regards Chris

[Meadows Miller]

Malcomtent,

That is a biiggg sawing job! Get ready for some hard work! ;D That hard work pays off though. 8)

Make sure to take a picture or two during a break, or else it never happened!


What Ty said  ;) :D :D ;D 8)

Chris, where will you be coming to in the USA?

I havent realy nailed that down yet Mate but i do have about 10 or 12 places i could stay sofar  from USA and the Canada ;D Im focusing on getting things paid out here and my home built first before i leave  ;) ;D 8)
I have been thinking of getting my own Lucas mill overthere and just working my way around as id only need to saw a couple of thousand bft a week to keep myself in the way im accousmed to  ;) :D :D  but i would be open to offers if someone was looking for a fulltime Sawyer or Logger  so its all in the planing stages atm Mate

Regards Chris

[sparks]

Bibbyman and NAS hit the nail on the head. You want to scale the logs and that is what they will pay you for whether or you get that amount. Example: you cut up 3 logs that scale at 100bdft ea. Once you open them up the logs are junk and you only get 50bdft out of the three. You just cut up 3 logs for $15.00 verses $90.00. He basically got the logs cut for free. He should pay for what they scale out as not what you get.
As Bibby say. If he brings junk he pays for the junk as well.

If they were your logs and you were selling them by what they scale, then you take the loss if it is not there. 

[red oaks lumber]

you have to saw by lumber tally, not  log scale. if  or should i say most mills saw 20-35% over log scale so, the customer would be getting alot of lumber free
you can usally see a junk log before sawing just kick it off the skid way.

[Chuck White]

you have to saw by lumber tally, not  log scale. if  or should i say most mills saw 20-35% over log scale so, the customer would be getting alot of lumber free.

Agreed, the sample contract in the Wood-Mizer book states "Charges are based on actual lumber sawed rather than scaled volume".

[Joe Lallande]

Recently, I cut several oak fire place mantels from customer's logs. Normal size 3x8 or 3x10 x 8'.  One wanted the bark edge and the other two wanted a cut edge. A lot of handling. I charged them $40 a piece. Is this fair?

[Meadows Miller]

Recently, I cut several oak fire place mantels from customer's logs. Normal size 3x8 or 3x10 x 8'.  One wanted the bark edge and the other two wanted a cut edge. A lot of handling. I charged them $40 a piece. Is this fair?

Joe $40 ea is more than fair as the coustomers usually standing behind you looking over your sholder telln you how to get what he wants out of the Bloody log n it takes you twice as long to do it Mate  ;)  :D :D ;)

Regards Chris

[malcolmtent]

the coustomers usually standing behind you looking over your sholder telln you how to get what he wants out of the Bloody log n it takes you twice as long to do it Mate 

Charge by the hour when they're watching and 'supervising'. Every time they speak, turn the mill off, let the motor run all the way down, then think about it. It should turn a 15 minute job into an hour, and then you'd be paid a fair rate.

I recall seeing a sign somewhere along the lines of:
    $50 per hour
    $75 if you're watching
    $100 if you're helping

There's nothing funnier than the truth.

[Hilltop366]

A friend gave me a sign to put in my shop years ago that said:

Answers -- $1.00
Answers which require thought -- $2.00
Correct answers --$4.00
Dumb looks -- Free

I think I got more dumb looks than I gave.