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Building a workshop....

Started by Piston, June 12, 2010, 12:26:44 AM

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Piston

I decided I need to build a workshop.  I started with a 16'X24' frame that I modified from the Sobon Shed, then I added a farmer's porch on one side.  I want it to look more like a small cozy cabin than a workshop!  I designed it using Sketchup and have detailed most of the joinery using the program(not finished with it yet).  I tried using a few different types of joints as this will be my first frame and I want to get some exposure to different joints, all basic though, but I'm sure still challenging. 

Here is my design so far, not completely done with the model but getting close.  I would like to know your opinion on a few things, just the frame in general, but also I'm not sure what kind of joint I should use to join the porch rafters to the main frame? 
Does it look like the way I lined up my joints will interfere with others, or weaken the timbers too much? 

Here is the basic frame.....













I want to use the loft for storage and the 4 collar ties for some light weight storage.  I want to be able to use the porch as a workspace too by using mobile workbenches for certain tools.  I will have a barn type sliding (or opening) door on the gable end and a dutch door on the front wall (I love dutch doors!)

For the foundation I'll most likely use piers, 3 under each sill and 3 in the center of the main frame, with a long sill to help support the longish span of the floor joists. 

I'm looking to make this a woodworking shop as I want to get more into woodworking as a hobby.  It will also by my 'hang out and relax' room so a small fridge and woodstove is mandatory. 

Here is a pic of the tie beam connection.....I'm not sure if I should use pegs or just the wedge, I will use a wedge on the top of the joint (not shown in pic) regardless. 




The Tie beams are 8X12, the posts are all 8X8, the sills are all 8X8, the floor joists are all 5X7, as are the rafters, although the porch rafters are 3X6 but I may bump that up to 4X6. 
I haven't done any structural calculations yet so these are subject to change. 


For the floor joists I used dovetails on two joists and the rest just joist pockets with the underside adzed to spread out the stress.







'


Any thoughts?  I plan on starting to mill the timbers in the fall and cutting the frame over the winter....who knows if this will actually happen or not!   :D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Raphael

I'd tie the corner posts on the porch to the shed posts.
There's little or nothing resisting thrust from the porch roof right now.

One approach (belt and suspenders) to the tie beam is use just the wedge until the timbers have well dried in then tighten the wedge up real good, bore and add a peg.  But in theory a good wedge is usually sufficient... what sort of snow loads do you see there?
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Brad_bb

Build it bigger.  I've never heard anybody complain about their workshop being too big, but sure have about it being too small.  That's pretty small.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Raphael

Quote from: Brad_bb on June 12, 2010, 09:02:34 AM
Build it bigger.  I've never heard anybody complain about their workshop being too big, but sure have about it being too small.  That's pretty small.

Ain't that the truth!  ;)
I've got something similar in mind only a bit more dutch barn like.
It'd be something like adding another porch on the other side of your design.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Jim_Rogers

Piston:
I can understand your wanting to build yourself a frame.

As for the choice of joints, a dovetail joint isn't the best for holding things together.
I believe I have a couple of threads here about that, but maybe a search will bring them up to the top.

Timbers dry out, and when a timber has a dovetail on the end and the dovetail shrinks it allows the dovetail to pull out.



The dovetail will shrink and the distance shown as the red dimension line will get shorter. This will allow the sills to spread further apart if something else, like the floor boards aren't holding it together. To prevent this from happening some framers pound in hard wood wedges in the areas shown as blue lines. This compresses the green wood, and then, it is thought, that when the wood shrinks the compressed wood expands and doesn't pull out. Or that the hardwood wedge takes up the future gap and doesn't allow it to pull out.

A better joint would be a standard tying joist joint.

This joint is not hard to cut and it does the job very nicely, if done correctly.

Here is a picture of the sill mortise for a tying joist:



And here is the tying joist tenon:



During the assembly of the frame, it is just a matter of sliding the tying joist into the mortise at the same time the long sill is slid onto the two cross sill's tenons and then the pegs are driven in pulling the entire side into place:



It may seem difficult but it's not really hard to line up all three tenons at the same time, especially when you have several others there helping you.

Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

John S

Piston,
I am hoping to do the same thing and was planning on taking the Sobon shed (14 x 16) and doubling it to 14 x 32, but think that may not be large enough.  My current shop is a 16 x 26 walkout benind my ground floor garage ... it is too small.  The most efficient use of material (to maximize interior space) is a square footprint, so the closer your dimensions are to a square, the more interior floor space.  Your current design (an excellent job, by the way) at 16 x 24 = 384 sq. ft. while a 20 x 20 = 400 sq. ft.
John
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

Piston

Quote from: Raphael on June 12, 2010, 01:46:28 AM
I'd tie the corner posts on the porch to the shed posts.
There's little or nothing resisting thrust from the porch roof right now.
I like the idea of tying the corner posts to the porch, but the only reason I don't want to, is in case I want to use the porch for storage of a small tractor or something, If I put a tie there I will only have about 6'or maybe a bit more of overhead clearance.  Do you think it will be okay without one?  Although I guess I'd rather be safe than sorry.
(I'll have extra support under the porch joists if I'm going to be planning on parking a few thousand pounds on there)


Quote
what sort of snow loads do you see there?
40psf is code, but I want to overbuild by a good margin.



I wish I could go bigger, but for this one I have to limit the size because of where I'm putting it on my land.  I'm hoping this is the first of many frames to come.

Jim, I'll change joinery as suggested, do you think I should change all my joists or just the ones I have dovetailed? 

Thanks all for advice, I'm a complete rookie at this stuff and need all the help I can get  :D

Any thoughts on what joints I should use for the porch rafters?  I'm using a step lapped rafter seat for the rafter connection to the top plate, should I do the same for the porch or is the pitch not steep enough? 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Dave Shepard

I framed an 8' addition to the 14'x16 Sobon/Carlon shed from Hancock last winter. We used a 6/12 pitch, and that seems to be about as low as you can go on the step lap. The laps are very close to the post top tenons. We will be running the rafters over the top of the main building rafters, and simply lapping on the top. This may work for you to raise up the porch plate height, allowing you to put a tie beam at each post location to the plate. What is the height of your tie beam, 8' like in the book? That may mean you have to raise the porch plate over the tie beam, or just below it. How much headroom do you need for the tractor on the porch?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Piston

Yes, 8' to the tie beam.  The tractor's ROPS is 7'2" high, which is foldable so I can go lower if I have to.  I placed a few tie beams in there just to see how it looked, aesthetically, I'm not too happy with the looks of the tie beams.


They just don't look right?  Is my porch to wide?  Maybe I should go with 7' instead of 8'?  Do I need braces on the porch tie beams?  Also, how close to the top of the porch posts can I join the tie beam? I have it at 12" below now.
This is with a 3:12 pitch.

I like the way it looks with the 4:12 on the porch roof and no tie beams, but I don't think I'll be able get around that.



I don't want to raise the porch roof up any higher mainly for looks, I think it would look too 'tall'.
I may just have to put in the tie beams and go that route.  Honestly I don't think I'll park the tractor under there much so it shouldn't be much of an inconvenience....I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too!   ;D

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston

I played around with the model a little more and like it a lot better after putting some braces in, although it seems a little crowded on the porch now with so many braces....



As you can see I changed to curved braces and made the cross sill one long timber instead of breaking it up into two. 

I'm a little concerned that my tie beams for the porch are too close to the top plate? 

There's only about 4 inches above the tie.

Also on the other side, it sure seems like I have a lot 'going on' there.  It looks to me like I would be removing too much wood by having so many joints cut into my corner post? 



I found some more details on the half dovetail tying joint in Steve Chappell's book and updated those joints.



I tried attaching my sketchup file in case anyone wanted to check it out but the file is too large...
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Raphael

  What I did for the extension I put on Sobon's classic house frame was put the tie over the plate to maximize headroom, but that'd mess with your complementary rafter-tail design...

  And I only put braces from the outer posts to ties as the entire main body of the frame resists the extension wracking in the other direction.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

mmhailey

This is a really educational post for me. I have plans in hand for a 16X24 kingpost cabin. I too am adding a porch to the long side. My idea was to not tie into the 16X24 frame at all, but build a free standing porch. Much like your drawing, but add posts, and a beam, on the inside of the porch, after you have built the exterior wall.   The grade difference can be taken into account when you put in your foundation for the 16X24 structure, then a step down to your porch.

Just my idea, but I am interested in how ever one else feels.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and turn him into a liar.

Raphael

Quote from: mmhailey on June 13, 2010, 09:27:02 PM
This is a really educational post for me. I have plans in hand for a 16X24 kingpost cabin. I too am adding a porch to the long side. My idea was to not tie into the 16X24 frame at all, but build a free standing porch. Much like your drawing, but add posts, and a beam, on the inside of the porch, after you have built the exterior wall.   The grade difference can be taken into account when you put in your foundation for the 16X24 structure, then a step down to your porch.

Just my idea, but I am interested in how ever one else feels.


For an unheated porch attached to an often heated and occupied structure that's actually the best way to go.  Where timbers pass from a heated interior through to the outside is a point of heat loss and often condensation build up which over time can rot the timbers.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

ballen

Raphael,
I'm glad you mentioned the thermal properties.  I want to apply the same thought to the roof where the main house rafters stop at the walls (and there is no gable overhang) so the whole house can be wrapped to provide a thermal break.  Then, I'd like to extend the gable and side overhangs via framing on top of the insulation on the roof to achieve a protective overhang all the way around.  Has anyone ever done this?
Bill

swampfox

Hey Piston,  not bad.  I like the lap joints on the collar, and the stout tie with the wedged dovetail.

As far as the shed rafters.  Someone mentioned there will be thrust and you would need a tie to resolve.  In my opinion there would be no thrust on those rafters because they are supported at the two plates.  (Just like if you ran a post to support a ridge).  I would not think you would need a tie there.  The rafters almost seem to be the "tie" that holds the two plumb planes stable.


Jim_Rogers

There could be thrust there, especially if some snow slides down the main roof onto the lean to roof.....
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: Piston on June 12, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
do you think I should change all my joists or just the ones I have dovetailed? 


Just do the ones you have dovetailed, although I can't really see which ones those are from those pictures. If you want to send me the design I can open it and look at it here.

QuoteAny thoughts on what joints I should use for the porch rafters?  I'm using a step lapped rafter seat for the rafter connection to the top plate, should I do the same for the porch or is the pitch not steep enough? 

If you secure the lean to rafter to the top of the main frame rafter with something like a timberlok screw or two, and you cut the birds mouth rafter seat on the lean to wall so that it acts like a hook to hold that wall from moving out, that maybe enough to hold it all together.
You probably don't need braces in the lean to tie beam to main post as you already have two braces in that wall plane.

Move the lean to tie up until it is just below the wall plate or put it over the plate and hook it down on top, beside the rafter. Just an idea.

Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

ballen

I found this picture on  the Vermont Timber Works page.  Looks pretty close to what you are proposing....




Piston

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on June 15, 2010, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: Piston on June 12, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
do you think I should change all my joists or just the ones I have dovetailed? 


Just do the ones you have dovetailed, although I can't really see which ones those are from those pictures. If you want to send me the design I can open it and look at it here.

Jim

Emailed you the model Jim. 


The pic Ballen posted looks like it would work for me as well.  I'll move some things around and see what I come up with. 

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston

Okay so I ended up raising the main tie beam up a foot which gave me some more room to work with for the joinery.  I also placed the rafters so they'll be tying into the top plate on the side like the last pic posted.  Would I use a tusk tenon for this joint as well?  It seems like it would work good hear as long as I can use it with an angled connection like this. 
Thanks to all of you for walking me through this, it sure is a big help.  ;)

Here it is with the tie beam moved up and rafter's repositioned.  I also beefed up the rafter's to 5x7.













Other than the two end ones, the porch rafters will be staggered between the main rafters so the joinery won't interfere with one another. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

mmhailey

How are you planning on enclosing the Workshop?

Will it be insulated?



Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and turn him into a liar.

Piston

Quote from: mmhailey on June 16, 2010, 10:07:30 PM
How are you planning on enclosing the Workshop?

Will it be insulated?

It will be insulated.....eventually  ;)

For the first year or so of it's life I think I am going to go with vertical shiplap siding, which will be both my interior and exterior wall.  When I decide to insulate it I will probably go with one of the method's I saw in one of Tedd Benson's books (I think that's where I saw it.)
I'll put 2x4's laid horizontally spaced 2' apart, and infill with rigid foam insulation, then vapor barrier, and then mabye board and batten over that.  I haven't really gotten this far yet but that's what I'm thinking for now.  Not sure what I'll do with the roof yet, I'll probably insulate that right from the start because it would be more of a hassle to wait until down the road.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

maineframer

Piston,

Your dovetail on your tie beam is upside down.
David

Raphael

Quote from: maineframer on June 20, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Piston,

Your dovetail on your tie beam is upside down.

You put yours in with wedges on the bottom forcing the dovetails up?
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Jim_Rogers

Raphael: He must be joking...... the dovetail is right according to Steve Chappell..... maybe that do it that way in Maine (I'm joking..... ;D)

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Piston

So is that the right way to do it  ???
I got that from Benson's book and basically copied it right out of there, however he recommends a 2" thick tenon on the collar tie and a minimum of 4" left on the rafter itself, so I would need to increase my rafter to 6" wide instead of the 5" that I have now. 
I saw somewhere else that someone had used a 1" thick tenon so I went with that at the time.  I have been meaning to update the model with a thicker tenon but had forgotten about that. 
Should I make the tenon at least 2" thick and increase the size of my rafters to 6x8?

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

I thought he was talking about this joint:



And as far as I can see, it is laid out right.

The only thing I would change is to drop the top peg, you don't need three.

I'm not sure what you're talking about..... :o
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Piston

Yup, he was definately talking about that one...
I read that too fast and had the collar tie dovetail on my mind, that's the one I was thinking about.  ;D

Oops
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

swampfox

Hey Piston,

It looks like your wedge for your dovetail is actually a rectangle.  Make sure you cut a wedge with an angle on it.  Angle the corresponding surface on top of the mortise as well.  That way you can set the wedge further after shrinkage.  If you just insert a rectangle (as drawn) it most likely will be doing nothing after wood shrinkage.  5 degrees should work.

Rooster

Swampfox and friends,

Should we also be advising Piston to cut his wedges large enough so that they don't "bottom out" or stick out of the frame from the inside?...and even go as far as having them come 2"-3" short of the outside reference face so that they can be adjusted or driven further later after shrinkage?  The outer skin or siding will definitely be in the way if the wedges are cut flush with the outside surface of the post when or if they needed to be adjusted.

Yay, or Nay?

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Piston

Quote from: Craig Roost on June 22, 2010, 07:22:02 PM
Swampfox and friends,

Should we also be advising Piston to cut his wedges large enough so that they don't "bottom out" or stick out of the frame from the inside?...and even go as far as having them come 2"-3" short of the outside reference face so that they can be adjusted or driven further later after shrinkage?  The outer skin or siding will definitely be in the way if the wedges are cut flush with the outside surface of the post when or if they needed to be adjusted.

Yay, of Nay?

Rooster

I vote Yay  ;D

Swapfox,
Good eye ;).... it is a rectangle in the drawing.   The reason I did that was so when creating the shop drawing for the receiving post in Sketchup it would cut a full square mortise for the wedge.  If I had made the wedge a "wedge shape" it would have cut that same shape into the post. 
Just to clarify though, I am supposed to cut the top of the mortise square in the post right?  Or should it match the slope of the wedge?
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Raphael

  Ideally wedges should be dry so they don't shrink and the channel they are in is cut across the grain so shrinkage there is minimum, keeping the tip back any more than an inch is overkill and leaves you that much less bearing surface.

I'd cut the slope of the wedge into the timber.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Piston

Quote from: Raphael on June 23, 2010, 12:36:47 PM
  Ideally wedges should be dry so they don't shrink and the channel they are in is cut across the grain so shrinkage there is minimum, keeping the tip back any more than an inch is overkill and leaves you that much less bearing surface.

I'd cut the slope of the wedge into the timber.

I just confirmed this in Chappell's book, he states ,

"...the bottom of the tenon (and corresponding mortise) is cut with a 1-1/4 to a 1-1/2 inch half dovetail, depending on the length of tenon.  A common ratio of shoulder cut to tenon length is 15 to 1."

He then goes on to say,

"The top of the mortise must be enlarged the same amount to allow the tenon to be inserted and then dropped onto the corresponding angle on the bottom of the mortise.  The space left at the top is then wedged snugly with an oak wedge, locking the tenon and mortise securely.  The addition of two or three pegs, depending on the loading condition, make this one of the strongest mortise and tenon joints to be found in traditional European timber joinery."

I also have a question about his diagram, but I need to scan it so it makes sense....I'll do that now.
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston




In this diagram, the wedge is going in from what I would consider the outside face, but in the description it says inside face.... :)

I know the good thing about inserting the wedge from inside is you can  drive it further after the timbers shrink, whereas from the outside you wouldn't be able to.
So what is the proper way?
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Rooster

So, what if you want to put decking on top of the tie beams?  How would y'all deal with the wedge, when it is from the inside out, and you still want to adjust the tenon because of shrinkage? :-\

Oh, what a pickle!! ;D

You know me, always thinking ahead!

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Raphael

I'd just slot the decking around the wedge.  You don't need very much wedge sticking out, once it's initially locked into place any subsequent adjustment is going to be in the fraction of an inch range.

Of course if you've got access to the far side you could change the joint to make it a dutch tying beam, a wedged through tenon.  That's the approach I've got in mind for my shop.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Rooster

Quote from: Raphael on June 27, 2010, 12:44:41 PM
...make it a dutch tying beam, a wedged through tenon.  That's the approach I've got in mind for my shop.

Raphael,

Care to share a sketch of that joint?  I don't know them all by name. haha

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Brad_bb

Dutch tying is a through tenon.  It's held on the outside of the post with 1 or two wedges perpendicular to the tenon, not parallel like in the half dovetail example, and the end of the tenon is usually rounded and not squared off like a regular tenon.  This can only be used when there is nothing on the outside of the posts, like a tie beam holding two interior posts.

One great little book to have that shows most joints in pictorial form is "Historic American Joinery" A graphic guide by Jack Sobon.  It's only $10 through the guild.  Here's a link to order:
http://tfguild.stores.yahoo.net/hiamtijo.html
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Dave Shepard

Here is an anchorbeam to purlin post joint from a New York state Dutch barn I'll be restoring this coming winter:

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Rooster

So, it's typical to use both trunnels and wedges to secure these joints?

What is the advantage of this joint?  
Does it have signficant holding strength?  
Would it look out of place in a small structure like Piston's workshop?

And is that a diagonal brace that got cut out below and perpndicular to the anchor beam?

It seems large...like 4x8?  

And are the bent nails that are located under the anchor beam to catch your clothing on?..or to help get a good grip with your jersey gloves? ;D

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Raphael

yup, wedges and pegs both is typical.
One big advantage is you can put a serious vertical load on the beam.
IMHO a lot of dutch barns have survived primarily due to the strength (and protected nature) of this joint.
In a smaller structure the beam would be correspondingly smaller so I don't think it'd look to out of place.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Piston

I really like the way this joint looks and have always thought that if I were to build a barn that it would be the Dutch style barn that the anchorbeam is used in.  I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that in my workshop I want to build it wouldn't be smart to use this joint, because it would be exposed through the siding, which would be much more susceptable to rot if blowing rain were to get into the joint.  It seems like you mostly only see this joint when there is another, outside wall and the anchorbeam is restricted to the interior portion of the bent. 
This way, if the outer walls deteriorate and the sill plates rot out on the outside of the building, the interior bent is strong enough to hold up the remaining portion of the rafters and the building won't collapse.   I really love the look of the MASSIVE anchorbeam holding those old barns together.  8)

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Dave Shepard

Do you have Jack Sobon's first book, the red one? In the back is a dutch style two bay garage. He and Paul Martin put a little pent roof over the through tenons. That garage is about 12 miles from me.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Piston

Dave,
Yes I do have his books, I just checked out that 2 car design in the back of his book.  I like salt-box design in the back makes a good spot for firewood.  I might have to incorporate some sort of additional roof overhang just for that purpose.  The back wall will be facing south so it would be a great place to stack wood. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Piston

I'm back at it again  ;D

Now that winter is here and I'm finally not too busy with everything else I'm going to try and devote some time to actually getting this thing started  8)  I have a few of the major timbers milled and ready to get cut into and plan on milling a few more when I get home in 2 weeks. 
I've been going over my highly modified Sobon 'shed' design and have run into a couple problems that I never got around to fixing before. 

Hopefully one of these days this thread will turn into pictures of actual progress rather than planning, but for now its still in the 'design' stage  :D



You can see I added another sill down the center of the main portion of the frame.  I also adjusted some heights of the porch ties and increased the center main tie beam to 10x12 to give me more room for the loft joist pockets. 
I increased the size of the center posts to 8x10 to match the width of the tie beam, as well as give me more room for the two brace's and half dovetail for the tie beam. 



Here is my first major issue. 
In this center bent.....(with timbers removed for clarity)


On the right side of the frame...


where the porch tie beam (center) meets the center post, I can't think of a good way to fit all the joints there. 

Here it is close up....


.....and here is an end view....


I may need to move things around but I'm not sure what/where to move.  I don't want to lower the porch tie beam or raise the main tie beam, so that pretty much leaves me with either going with what I have, or changing the length of the braces? 
I offset the porch tie beam tenon so it wouldn't be directly under the half dovetail as you can see.  I didn't want to remove wood directly underneath it because it is only 7" between the two. 

Am I trying to remove too much wood from this post by adding the porch tie beam? 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Don_Papenburg

Piston ,  I do not know how much neat stuff and tools you have to use in your shop. But if it is like mine I would insulate beforeI put anything inside .  I want to insulate mine now and I have a month of moving to do just to get access to my walls.   
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

fred in montana

QuoteI'd tie the corner posts on the porch to the shed posts.
There's little or nothing resisting thrust from the porch roof right now.



You had mentioned that you would rather not have to put in ties or braces due to wanting to park a tractor in there. I think you should leave them out. You will need to have strong connection where your porch rafters tie into the plate. The connection you have in the drawing looks as if it would need to be beefed up though.


As long as the main structure is rigid and the rafter is securely fastened to the plate, there is no way that the porch post can be thrust outward due to roof load.

I guess a joist hanger is out of the question but maybe someone could suggest an alternate connection detail for the porch rafter/plate connection?


woodmizer lt15, mf 65 tractor
logdovetailjig.com

icolquhoun

First off, I'm currently in the design stages for a small cabin almost EXACTLY like what you are doing off the sobon shed idea.  Therefore, this thread is very appealing to me.  I also plan on having a porch off the back, and have run into the same exact issues as you have.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does the porch roof have any outward thrust?  The main roof/plate yes, but the let-in collar ties take most, if not all of that away.  Being a single plane, how is the porch roof generating enough outward thrust on the porch plate to be considered more than negligible?  I still see the need to tie the porch plate in with the main frame, but see below for how I plan on doing this.

Also, I have seen where the braces where put from the sill to the post where you have a large number of joints all fighting for space on a crowded post with a dropped tie beam, although this makes the raising a bit of a chore I'd imagine.  You could also lengthen the braces to drop them below the braces tying the tiebeam to the post.  On that center bent, you could get rid of them altogether on that one post and probably be fine.

Just thinking out loud here, and I've never seen this done, but what about for the porch portion, raising the tie, making it a half of an english tying joint with rafter/porch plate?  It would then be on the same vertical height as the main framing tie-beams.  You then have an issue with the dovetail tenon being in the same place as the porch tie beam, but what if the porch tie beam were also dovetailed the other way and offset?  Has anyone seen a joint like this before?  I realize there would be quite a bit of material removed, but you said you were making the center post a 10" anyway, correct?  Let me draft up the joint and post it up. 

jamesamd

If that post is 10" wide and your brace housings are 1/2" deep
and the brace tenons are 2" long.
There should be 5" between thier ends!
Jim
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

icolquhoun



didn't do peg holes, tie beams, etc....but I thought since the post is 10" wide, this was similiar to how i was planning on doing my centerpost.

As you can see, the are two (2" wide)mortises at the same height, one for the 10x12 main frame tie beam, as well as the tie beam on the back for the porch.  I messed up and drew the dovetails at the wrong angles, and did the rear one the same size as the front, which I realize you won't have a 12" (11.5") porch tie, but you get the idea.  You'd also want to house the rear tiebeam for the porch tie as well, even though it's on a reference face.  Just a quick sketch to show you how I plan on doing my rear posts.  This gives you quite a bit of headroom on the rear porch.  I also plan on doing the english tying joint using the porch tie/rafter combo.  

Would this work?

Piston

Quote from: Don_Papenburg on January 11, 2011, 09:47:22 PM
I would insulate beforeI put anything inside . 

Actually there has been a change in plans since I started this project.  Now it is going to be a small cabin instead of a workshop, so I will certainly be insulating it.  I definitely don't have all the details worked out yet and am just trying to nail down a definitive design for the frame so I can get my timber list finalized, I'll start cutting some more in the near future if all goes as planned.....


Fred in Montana:
I like your idea, and I agree that there shouldn't be much outward thrust from the porch rafters, I added the tie beams because some well respected guys on here suggested it, and I know just enough to know that I don't really know that much  :D  So I went with the suggestion. 

Also, I'm not sure yet what joint I'll use to tie the porch rafters to the plate?  That was my next question once I figure out my 'busy joint intersection' dilemma.  Maybe I could delete the center porch tie and leave the two outer ones, sort of a happy medium? 


Quote from: icolquhoun on January 12, 2011, 01:44:31 PM
First off, I'm currently in the design stages for a small cabin almost EXACTLY like what you are doing off the sobon shed idea. 

Good, Maybe now that my plans shifted and this will be a cabin we can share some ideas.  Feel free to PM me with your email if you want me to send a copy of my Sketchup file (as well as anyone else who would like it)
Your idea of going with braces from the sill up to the center of the post is interesting, I'll think about that some more but I may want to leave that bay open (on the floor level) as now I think I will be closing in the shed as living space. 

Mine will just be a primitive cabin with a woodstove, not sure if I'll add running water or electricity, but do want to keep the option open. 

I have no idea about the half english tying joint your speaking of?  I haven't seen that anywhere and one important thing I've learned from reading all the major books is that you don't want to invent new joinery, because it's probably already been done and there is a reason its not commonly used.   ;D


Quote from: jamesamd on January 12, 2011, 02:00:55 PM
If that post is 10" wide and your brace housings are 1/2" deep ......
1" housings...

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

icolquhoun

My cabin will also have a woodstove and no plumbing.  I will have a very small PV system to operate lighting and thats about it.

The english tying joint was in no way shape or form invented by me.  Check out Sobon's 2nd book pages 42+43 or the red book page 28.  I was calling it a half tying joint due to the fact it only has one rafter and half the tie beam for the porch.  I plan on using the "half" of it out at the end of the porch rafters.  This raises the porch tie beam up to the plate(porch) height, giving you more headroom, as well as bringing the end that meets the main frame up in the tie-bean vicinity, hence the need to offset the tenon as shown by my quick post sketch.  I will post up the sketch I have done of the frame I plan on building.  While being very similar to yours, I am using strawbales as insulation (even though using clapboard exterior treatment) and have altered the frame to accommodate them as well as have slightly different overhangs for passive solar consideration as well.  My bents are also unevenly spaced so as to maximize the loft area.

As far as the braces for that center post, I have omitted them and feel pretty confident in that.  Once you see my frame you'll realize why. 

I look forward to seeing the progress on your cabin, it looks great so far, and the time you spend dreaming, sketching and planning now will more than pay for itself in the near future! 

Jasperfield

Piston,

Did you use Bremer's rubies to incorporate the joinery details into your SketchUp drawing?

If so, how (easily) did the installation of the rubies proceed; and have you had any problems with them?

Piston

Quote from: icolquhoun on January 12, 2011, 07:09:06 PM
Check out Sobon's 2nd book pages 42+43 or the red book page 28.

I'll look into that more tonight and thanks for the references.  I think that's really cool your gonna use strawbale insulation!  8)  

Jasperfield,
Yes I did use the rubies and they are extremely helpful.  When my frame is completely done (as far as planning purposes go for the frame plans) I will create shop drawings using his rubies and add all the needed dimensions to the drawing, then print out each member so I have 'blueprints' for each timber.  It is amazing how helpful the rubies are when you learn to use them.  It took me a while though, I have messed around with the program for a long time.  I took a 5 day class at Heartwood to learn to use the program.  You certainly don't need the class to learn it, but it made it so much easier for me and was well worth the money.  I also plan on designing my house frame with it someday, which is the main reason i'm even building this cabin, as practice.  

Installation was easy.  I'm using sketchup 7 now and not 8, I believe there were some minor issues with version 8 but they may be worked out already.  There is a lot of helpful info on the guild forum for sketchup as well.  I just followed clark's directions on his website.  http://www.tfguild.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=23&page=1&PHPSESSID=55742be9e8c48d78613c86a6b692337b
Clark is a regular poster on there as well.

Also, the ability to see the frame in 3d on the laptop as I'm cutting the timber will be very helpful.  The absolute BEST part of the rubies is all you do is create the tenons, the mortises are automatically drawn in the timber, cutting down a bunch of work.  There are steps to make this work though and if I can help you I will, just ask some specific questions, I'm no expert though  ;D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

ballen

...And Clark's customer service is great! The few questions I did have about the Rubies were answered quickly. I'm a fan.  The only draw back in my eyes is that everytime you make a small change in your design, you have to generate new shop drawings which are dimensionless until you manually add dimensions each time. Other than that, they are great!
Bill

Piston

Ballen,
Are you using version 7 or 8?  Do you notice any discrepancies in v. 8 if thats what your using? 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

Piston:
You have braces to the plate at the front and back bent. You don't need braces to the plate at the center bent. Remove them and leave the rest of your joinery there. That should work.

Jim

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Piston

I ended up shortening the braces and moving them up about 4" this seems to work well. 
I saw a picture in Steve Chappel's book that looked very similar to what I was looking for. 

I think I may end up omitting those center braces as you said Jim.  For now I'll leave them in so they are included in my timber list in case I decide I like the way it looks better....or rather, I should say in case my wife likes the way it looks better.  :D


I'm still not sure what joint I'll use to tie the rafters, maybe dovetail or tusk tenon, or a combination of the two.  I think for now it is finished enough to where I can print out my timber list, and go to town with the mill.  I'm getting tired of staring at sketchup!
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

If you want me to look at your design, more, you could send me the sketchup file....
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Dave Shepard

What's the status of this project? Did the Heartwood class give you any ideas?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Piston

Dave,
Yes I got a lot of good experience from the Heartwood class.  I certainly feel like I can tackle this project now.  I have sent my revised revision of my revision once more revised frame :D to the famous bmike for a final look at my frame.  Once he get's back to me I can make my cut list for the timbers, and if by some miracle, I can make time this fall I will be starting to mill my timbers and cut the joinery in the fall.  Just need to get that mill extension built beforehand, which really doesn't seem to be too bad. 

Thanks for bringing this thread up again, I wasn't sure if I should start a new one when I start cutting the frame, or continue on with this one.  Guess I'll continue posting any updates here. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

JohnM

Quote from: Piston on July 02, 2013, 10:06:18 AMGuess I'll continue posting any updates here.
Yes, please! :)  I only understand about a 1/3 of what you guys are talking about (need to take a TF class and a sketchup class ;D) but it looks like a very cool project, would like to see the progress.

JM
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

Satamax

Quote from: JohnM on July 07, 2013, 12:01:51 PM
Quote from: Piston on July 02, 2013, 10:06:18 AMGuess I'll continue posting any updates here.
Yes, please! :)  I only understand about a 1/3 of what you guys are talking about (need to take a TF class and a sketchup class ;D) but it looks like a very cool project, would like to see the progress.

JM
John, sketchup wise, there's a ton of videos on youtube. This one helped me out a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj3KCcBPLXc
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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