Sawing live oak at the Church

[Tom]

I've been sawing Live Oak at a church in a nearby community.  they took down several and want to use the wood in the new addition for stair treads, etc.

[solidwoods]

Hi Tom
I have cut/dried/built furniture out of a bunch of Live Oak.
Wrangle some of the Qtr Sawn for pay.
Have you cut Live Oak before?
JIM

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Now those stair treads will last!

What I like about quartersawn Live Oak is the illusion of three dimensional grain.  It is as if the grain is serpentine.   The rays aren't as pronounced as red oak or true white oak (Quercus Alba), but this spiral effect is really neat.

Dry slowly at first !

Phil L.

[Tom]

Yep, been sawing Live Oak upon request for years. It's not my favorite wood to saw but I enjoy what comes out of the log. It just takes a lot of patience.

I don't deliberately try to quartersaw logs like this.  they are too big to handle.  Usually, by the time I get them to a state where I can handle them easily, I am getting vertical grain. The grain twist so much that part of most boards will be vertical grain.

What I try to cut are the crotchs.  This particular log didn't like its crotch cut and the blade was sucked down at the beginning of the crotch wood to for ma divot. I could slow down and control most of it once I realized it was happening.  Ha!  Not that I was going too fast anyway. :D

Most of the "Big" butts were taken away on the trash truck. (see the Hulk" in the logging topic under Timber Harvest Methods & Equipment .)

I still have a stack of, more than 30, varying length logs to saw.  In Live Oak, that is more than a day. :D  They run from about 10 to 24 inches.

[UNCLEBUCK]

what is live oak ? here in west central minnesota is alot of white oak so what is the differance , do the leaves and bark look the same as white oak.it looks like the log on that big bandsaw has a more smoother bark like a ash . I guess I dont know. thats a big portable sawing set up you have tom.thanks

[Tom]

I was always told that the Live Oak was a White Oak.  Lately, some of the foresters have pointed out to me, and shown me some write-ups, that it is in the Red Oak group.

It grows in coastal areas and some inland in the coastal states.  It develops into a huge, spreading tree with majestic far-reaching, large diameter branches. It lives, more frequently than not, 200 to 400 years.  

It grows in sandy soil, has smaller, leathery leaves, dark green on top and lighter green on the bottom.  The acorns are small and numerous.

The wood is very hard.  the sapwood is yeillowish to white and the heartwood is grey.  The grain swirls to form interesting patterns, is resistant to splitting but must be protected from checking.  It is a dense wood, heavy in weight, strong and hard on machining equipment. While the difficulty of its machining is great, it produces a beautifully textured board that lends itself to masculine furniture, especially table tops.

Vertical grain boards show a circus of medullary ray designs and flat sawed boards a busy, topographical map like quality of stirred grain.

It is a very difficult wood to cut on a sawmill, hard to handle because of its trunk size, difficult to find straight wood in its smaller branches but a bananza of pretty wood in its larger branches.  While the large branches are difficult to dry without degrade, they can produce many fine boards if the sawyer pays attention to the grain, heart-check and tension wood.

All in all, it is a wood that is not offered to many woodworkers because of the reluctance of most sawyers to take the time and effort to cut it.

[Jeff]

Here is a live oak for ya Buck...

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1061078956;start=20#20

[UNCLEBUCK]

thanks jeff, when I read the info i thought hey i might have some of that but then the picture you directed me to clearly shows i do not, now i know what live oak is , am glad i asked! that looks like some awesome stuff , thanks

[DanG]

I think the most interesting Live Oak story is the USS Constitution.  "Old Ironsides" was/is planked with Live Oak, which is what gave it the ability to withstand enemy cannon fire.  The ship is still commissioned as a warship of the US Navy, and the Navy still maintains a Live Oak forest near Pensacola, Fl to provide material for upkeep and refurbishment.

[beenthere]

DanG close on the USS Constitution "Old Ironsides", but the live oak was used for the futtocks (frames) whereas the planking was 4-6" thick white oak, inside and outside of the frames. Along with the 12" thick live oak frames, that was a solid 24" wall of live oak and white oak wood held together with 7/8" copper rods. The keel was 24" white oak with about 6' depth along most of the ship's length. She was commissioned by President Geo. Washington in 1794. She was launched in 1797. Below the water line, the wood is still original.

I spent some time in the hold of that ship while she was being reconstructed for her 200 year anniversary, and saw her first hand. There are some good accounts of her construction in a book titled "Live Oaking - Southern timber for tall ships" by Virginia Steele Wood, Northeastern University Press, Boston, 1981.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

That makes sense, doesn't it, Beenthere.

Since Live Oak (Quercus Virginiana) doesn't have the tyloses blocking the entry of water like White Oak (Quercus Alba) does,  White would be the choice for the skin - just like wine barrel cooperage.  Then the tremendous strength and resistance to splitting would be the advantage of the Live for the frames.

Thanks for the scoop on the USS Constitution and on the book!

Phil L.
P.S.   In a recent thread on WoodWeb, it turns out that the oaks actually have three groups.  In the lumber industry oaks are forced to fit into only two.  Live Oak is actually a member, botanically speaking, of that third group - a group unrecognized in our world.  (you know, kind of like extra dimensions on Star Trek)

[beenthere]

I found a picture of a mock-up cross-section of "Old Ironsides" showing the roughly 12 x 12" liveoak frames with the 6" white oak planking on both sides. As you can see, the frames are placed directly beside each other, probably for ultimate strength. Also, this design apparently added stiffness to the entire ship, allowing for more sail, and thus more speed.

Me thinks the debate over the placement (or separation) of the oaks into three groups or two has been going on for years between the scholars and the users. Each likely have their good reasons for touting their side of the discussion, but its confusing when trying to make the correct placement when all the resources don't agree.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Sorry guys,

I got my Euco, Leuco, Erythro all messed up.  (Don't ask.)  

As you say, this in corn-fuzin'!   After I looked back, it seems that the full scientific name throws Live Oak into the red group.
See more on the Tree I.D. forum thread about Red and White Oaks.

I have found contradictory labeling, even in state parks.
Phil L.

                Humbler, but not any wiser ?

[DanG]

Sounds like something you'd have to take medicine for, Phil. :D :D
I got confused on my contribution, too. Thanks for correcting it, Beenthere.  I keep forgetting that I've lost my memory, and try to rely on it too much. :-/

[LeeB]

May be wrong, but I thought Live oak does have tylose blocking which adds to the red-white contraversy. I know I always thought it was white till recently. Now I just ain't sure. Just know it's harder than rock.

[solidwoods]

I'm going looking for where I saw Oaks as 3 groups Red White and Live.

Also I think Live is the hardest of the Oaks

Like to see a bowling alley of Live Oak, or Gym floor.
Drying crotches real drag, I think over drying Live Oak is harder (cupping mostly)

JIM

[Brian_Bailey]

The Southern Lumberman Mag. features Live Oak in its current issue Nov. 2003. Unfortunately, they haven't updated their website to show this species yet.  Check out www.southernlumberman.com and click on species.

The article states " Worldwide, the oaks - members of the beech ( Fagaceae) family - can be separated into three groups: the live or evergreen oak group, the red oak group, and the white oak group."

The article also states, " The strong, heavy wood was a natural selection for the construction of frigates and other naval vessels."

Very interesting article, keep checking their site for it.

[Brian_Bailey]

For those that might be interested, Southern Lumberman mag. updated their site to include the article on Live Oak.

www.southernlumberman.com  click on Live Oak.