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Getting to the Cant?

Started by wannasaw, June 09, 2010, 09:43:15 PM

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wannasaw

I would really be interested to know the way experienced sawyers get to the cant. I have spent time thinking about logs and boards that could have beeen spent sawing. I've read what shows up on searches and sawed again the following weekend. Ive learned to dist the tape measure ect. Is there a "normal" tact for straight logs? Are there links I missed and where. Got a 35 mixed log pile this coming weekend with saw grade logs and, some that should have been pulp. Is it more important on the smaller logs where you talk about the diff between 4 boards or 5 or 6. We have been sawin 1-2 natural edge board/s per log and I can't figure any better way so far I haven't been wastin any lumber just thinking way too much when I should be sawing. I know this is old topic but any links to videos, old post or advice would be greatly appreciated.
LT28 70something Int'l Backhoe loader  Kubota L285, Husky 55, F-250 7.3, 12'x6' single axle trailer, Kubota RTV900 w/remote hyd. Iron will...

wannasaw

Sorry, forgot what I was susposed to ask last post. Has anyone made a bandwheel cleaning tool for the pitch that builds up under 19" bandwheels? Me old poket knife can't take no more!
LT28 70something Int'l Backhoe loader  Kubota L285, Husky 55, F-250 7.3, 12'x6' single axle trailer, Kubota RTV900 w/remote hyd. Iron will...

Dan_Shade

for the pitch use a drip line of some water with dish detergent in it, or some pinesol.  I use about 12oz of pinesol and a squirt of dish detergent in 5 gallons of water.

When I open up a log, I determine the final cant size that I want, and how I want it centered in the log.  I then "bump up" the thickness of board + the kerf to get to my opening cut.

check out this thread:  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,31527.0.html

These days, I flip the cant 180 degrees instead of turning 90 degrees.  I find this reduces my edging requirements.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Dan_Shade

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Magicman

What kind of mill do you have?  I use 10 oz. of automatic dishwasher soap per 5 gallons of water.  You'll find that every sawyer has their own special recipe for cleaner/lube.  They all must work, because no one is willing to change.   ;D

Quote from: wannasaw on June 09, 2010, 09:43:15 PMI have spent time thinking

I can't help you with your thinking. :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dan_Shade

"everytime I try to think, nothing happens" - Curly (1952)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

paul case

wannasaw,
i am a greenhorn too, so i will just tell you what has served me well.
i make sure the center o the log is at the same height at both ends(level it).  i make a template out of cardboard and put it on the and draw around it with a pencil. then when you saw you can start at the line and raise up a board and kerf to the top of the log. do this for two sides and the other two measure up from the desired cant size. (i only turn 1/4 at a time.)
i started doing this on tie logs so i wouldnt mess them up. they want the core inside the tie at least 1 inch.
this dont take very long when you get used to doing it and gives a teriffic starting point. plus it will tell you if you can make more than 1 cant from a log. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

wannasaw

You mean Icant find one person to think for me? I may a well stay on my day job..No one thinks at all there... Thanks for the advice and links. Dan' links showed me I'm on the right track, Tom's site.showed me how to get rid of tapes ect.. I'm sawing with a new 28. Put a winch/turnbuckle loader on it after the fourwheeler got tired. Doubles to get my truck unstuck for now. Want to go hyd. on the loader, turner and leveler but right now all the cylinders I have are a little to big. Everything else seems fine but I like the chain turner on the WM videos. Does the auto dish soap work as well as as pine sol/dawn? The pitch I'm talking about is getting on the band wheel BB size in spots maybe twice a day causing a slight to moderate vibration.Just wondered if there's a tool for that. Could that be from no lube for 1 or 2 seconds at the start of a cut. Oh yeah, Had an engineer stop his train engine on the tracks the other day, got off the train to come get our # for sawing. Made me think>
LT28 70something Int'l Backhoe loader  Kubota L285, Husky 55, F-250 7.3, 12'x6' single axle trailer, Kubota RTV900 w/remote hyd. Iron will...

Brad_S.


When sawing grade logs, forget about the cant when you open the log. Saw the best looking boards you can from the outside. Contrary to popular belief among those not familar with logs, the clearest, highest grade lumber comes off the outside of the logs. Once you have the log open, take cuts from the nicest looking face. As you get further into the log, you will start to hit more and more knots. Always turn the log so you are cutting on the nicest face. When you finally reach the point where you cannot take anymore boards without going past the cant size you want from the middle, take a few cleanup cuts to bring you to final size. It is better to throw away the low grade cleanup cuts from the inside than to leave the high grade wood in an opening slab cut that is too deep.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

bandmiller2

Wanna,first thing relax theirs always going to be waste around a mill.We just cut the logs we don't create them.On short logs taper isn't that important on long logs it is.If you don't have fancy taper adjustments keep some different thickness sticks around to roll one end of the log on.I have little use for boards under 6" so I try to open up to 6" on a slab cut,then usally one more board turn and keep going till I reach the cant size I want.I save any corrective cuts for guys that make bird houses or outher projects they like thinner boards. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Bibbyman

Here is a link to the little known and seldom used "Knowledge Base" where I put a short tutorial on sawing methods.

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/tips/tips.cgi?display:1053087496-16591.txt

It does not cover everything you will come to know but it's a place to start.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Ron Wenrich

I don't saw a whole lot of high grade logs.  The high grade are sold as veneer and sometimes export sawlogs.  So, I get the stuff that's a drop below the easy stuff to saw.

Sawing the best face can often mean that you want to put your defect on the corner of the board.  What you're trying to get is the longest and widest amount of clear wood that you can.  On some logs, that might mean the whole length of the log.  On others, it might be 50%.  Your first cut will determine the quality of every opening face, unless its a big log and you can change that plane.

You can turn when the grade drops or is about to drop.  You have to learn how to read the log face.  Those little swirls you see on a clean face means there is a knot behind it.  But, is it only 1" or 2" away?  Usually, when you start seeing the swirls, the grade will drop by 1 grade on the backside.  If the front side is FAS, then you're OK.

If you do a lot of turning, you may pick up more grade.  But, I have found I have more miscuts.  A miscut is waste, unless you can plane it down.  Then you waste some time.  You should take a shim cut to square up your face.  Logs can change shape as you saw when you're relieving stress in several different planes.  Shim cuts are just a very thin piece of wood.  But, your saw must be cutting into the wood.  No trying to shave the log.  That just pushes the saw.

When grade starts to go, then look for the biggest piece of blocking you can make.  I saw ties and 3 ½ x 6.  I have lots of combinations for those big, low grade logs. 

For small logs, unless they're nice, those side cuts are going to be low grade.  There is more juvenile wood which tends to twist and turn a whole lot more. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ARKANSAWYER

I was cutting 18" x 18 1/4" inch cants today and then splitting them into 6x18's with the pith centered in the middle one.  Most of my logs were runing in the 30 to 32 inch dib range.  The trick was keeping track of the 18 1/4" width for the later split.  So I started on opening cut running the blade up to the pith of the log.  Then I bumped up 9 1/4 inches and put a shallow cut into the log.  From then on I knew where my face was for the split.
  Like BradS said some times the boards on the outside are more important then the cant.  If you have to take a thin cut to make the cut make in in the low grade wood in the middle.  But if the cant is the main product like what I was doing then just run you blade up and cut the end of the log real shallow to mark the cant.  Then from there you can tell about how many boards are on the outside.
  If you want someone to think for you   GET MARRIED!  Thats what I did and it has worked wonderfuly for me, just ask my wife. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

Brucer

Quote from: ARKANSAWYER on June 10, 2010, 07:06:50 PM
The trick was keeping track of the 18 1/4" width for the later split.

I cut a lot of FOHC Douglas-Fir. Planning the first cut is simple enough but after you've turned the log several times, it's easy to forget where you were going to cut out the heart. So I keep a lumber crayon on a tray on top of my control panel. As the saw is part way along the opening cut, I draw a line across the end of the log parallel to the opening face. That way I always know how the log was oriented when I started.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Magicman

That procedure is really no different from setting the log up to saw dimension framing lumber.  You just don't saw up the split cant.



This one has been split for 2X4's



Ready to saw 2X6's
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

wannasaw

Thanks for the advice. I "think" it's alot clearer after todays sawing match. Last week an elderly gentelman came to the customers site and told me his friend down the rd. was trying to give him 40 free logs already limbed, topped and stacked. Went and talked to the guy and sure enough they were free and he would let us saw them there and make him a burn pile. He wants no lumber. They are mixed but there are none we cant saw. Some are 22" lot of 15"s few 12's. we quit on customers project and moved to the freebies this AM.(Customer and I)He's helping me for free lumber also.  Saw shed/barn is about to happen! After reading the post, if I understand what you all are trying to say, I would be cutting out the hearts for the largest boards, beams, columns and the faces are better for framing and siding? I dont sell lumber now, but am glad to learn as it may come up in the future. Were sawing more along the line of Majicmans business and our cants, turns and cuts look about the same. Not to say I am in his league but I think I'm on the right track.
Hey Arkansaw I been married 25 yrs. Just when I think I'm big enough to think for myself! Like when she let me put the winch on the saw all by myself and then the bottom pulley of the log turner hit it on the way up. Man! what was she thinking?
LT28 70something Int'l Backhoe loader  Kubota L285, Husky 55, F-250 7.3, 12'x6' single axle trailer, Kubota RTV900 w/remote hyd. Iron will...

ARKANSAWYER

See now you have someone to blame!   8)
ARKANSAWYER

backwoods sawyer

I think we can all agree to a certain point that the more time you spend at the front of the log trying to figure out how we are going to cut it the lower the production for the day. When I started sawing, it was in a production mill where you have 8-30 seconds to get the log positions and scanned before the carriage comes back and takes it away, so you are sawing one log, watching the deviation sensors on all four bandmills along with seven cameras while positioning the next log at the same time, and averaging 3,000-4,000 logs a shift.
Sawing with the LT-70 slowed that pace down considerably. One thing that I do the same is rotate the log 360* this not only allows me to see the end of the log but all sides of the log as well, and contrary to popular belief logs are not round and how you position the log will affect what you can cut out of it. Gene Wengert wrote a simplified article on this in the last issue of "Sawmill and wood lot magazine" call "opening faces". Like Brucer, I give the front of the log one mark with a wood crayon to help keep track of orientation when turning the log several times in the process of mill the log.
Now with the Mighty Might rotating the log is not an option. I get one shot at positioning the log, so when I bring the log to the mill with the loader I give the log a quick walk around looking for defects and the shape of the log, then I position the log and clamp it in place. Since these logs are not debarked I go over the log with a claw hammer to remove all the gold nuggets that I just toss over my shoulder, but this gives me a chance to get a good feel for the log before taking the saw to it.
No mater what style of mill you are using, your end product and secondary products will determine how you position and mill the log.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Magicman

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on June 12, 2010, 12:21:42 PM
One thing that I do the same is rotate the log 360° this not only allows me to see the end of the log but all sides of the log as well, and contrary to popular belief logs are not round and how you position the log will affect what you can cut out of it. 

This is a very good point.  Sawyers who say "I always" are making a big mistake.  "Always if" would be better.  The log and what you are going to saw out of it should determine how it's opened.  You can't do this without rotating the log.  The log is always different from how it looked on the ground.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Kansas

I realize the term "flip flop" is a derogatory term in politics. But good sawyers flip flop all the time. Lets say you have an order for several trailer decks out of oak, of various thickness and length. After your opening face, as you proceed to what you thought you were going to do with the log, often times you will run into a problem and have to change direction. It might be a hole in the log. A defect unseen. And once in a great while, you open up a log destined for a trailer deck, that reveals beautiful curl and quilt. You do some serious flip flopping then. And sometimes its knowing to pull the log back off the mill and set it aside for dunnage or pallet lumber. We expect our sawyers to change on the fly.

I don't remember the exact quotation, but a general once said something along the lines of that the best laid battle plans work perfectly till the first bullets fly. Unless your cutting low grade pallet logs into all the same thing, change and adapt as the log presents itself to you as you open it up.

Brucer

Quote from: Kansas on June 12, 2010, 02:34:05 PM
I don't remember the exact quotation, but a general once said something along the lines of that the best laid battle plans work perfectly till the first bullets fly. Unless your cutting low grade pallet logs into all the same thing, change and adapt as the log presents itself to you as you open it up.

The actual quote: "No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force." -- Helmuth Carl Bernard Graf von Moltke (26 October, 1800- 24 April, 1891).

Often paraphrased to: "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

I've seen the paraphrased version attributed to Colin Powell, but if he did say it, he was almost certainly quoting von Moltke.

Dwight Eisenhower also had an interesting one that might fit this situation: "In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable."
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Kansas

That quote by Dwight Eisenhower pretty well sums up sawing.
Thanks Brucer.

wannasaw



Practice photo post
another one ?


Well if I can get the pics to my gallery I finally learned to post them thanks to my brilliant daughter  8)
LT28 70something Int'l Backhoe loader  Kubota L285, Husky 55, F-250 7.3, 12'x6' single axle trailer, Kubota RTV900 w/remote hyd. Iron will...

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