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A new take on ‘quick, good and fast – pick two”

Started by malcolmtent, June 06, 2010, 10:46:50 PM

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malcolmtent

I have a new mill, and need to get it around. The mill is a Lucas 8-27, and is in great shape. Only 200 hours. Unlike the Woodmizers and their trailers, this one will go on the back of a pickup truck, with the tracks on top. And so I need a pickup truck of some type.

I also have a trailer – just got back from Detroit with it. So I need something to tow the trailer, and it's a heavy one. 4000lbs, with a hoist, and 2 x 7,000 lb axles. I'm intending to use it to drag some big beasts home and slab them. When I figure out how to post pictures here, I'll put some up for you all to see. It's an unusual baby, that's for sure!

So here's my take on the quick, good, fast choice game.

I want dually (dual rear wheels), 4x4 and diesel. But of course, so does everyone else, and these trucks sell for a premium, and are more than my budget can meet right now.

But if I compromise and accept 2 out of the 3, then I can more easily find something in my budget. So do I forgo diesel? Four-wheel drive? Or dual rear wheels?

Remember that I have to tow a heavy trailer, and back same onto client's properties, which are likely to be muddy work-sites at times.

Thanks for your advice.




Magicman

To me 4 wheel drive is not an option, it is a necessity.

The number of miles that you drive should determine whether you need (or need to justify) the diesel.

The trailer load on your truck will determine SRW or DRW.

Really, only you can answer the last two depending upon your need and use.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

fishpharmer

Having run dually's, 4x4's, diesel and gas.  If you don't plan on spending alot of time on the highway.  Pass on the diesel.   You will need the 4x4 for certain.  The dually's will help stabilize a heavy trailer.  
I love diesels but don't know if the added initial expense and fuel price are worth it in a seldom used truck.   Other's may have a different opinion.  I have friend with a Ford v10 triton that he loves and it was far far less than the diesel.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Nomad

     Don't forget the tremendous difference in torque from a diesel.  Makes pulling a trailer so much easier.  And while diesel fuel is more expensive than gas, the difference in fuel mileage more than makes up for the difference in price, at least in my case.  I'd never go back to a gas powered truck.  I get better fuel mileage towing 4000lbs than most trucks my size get towing nothing.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

Chuck White

Just don't forgo the 4WD.
There will be quite a few times out on mobile jobs where you will absolutely need it!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Brad_S.

If I were to give up one, it would be the dually's.
Unless you have a CDL, keep GVWR in mind. As a fellow NY'er, I am here to tell you that to a NYS DOT cop (the guys in the blue vans), large logs on a trailer or truck elicits about the same reaction as waving a red cape in front of a bull.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

r.man

Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

T Red

You can buy a lot of gas for the increased cost of owning a diesel. 
The initial higher cost of the engine. 
Oil changes are much more expensive.
Fuel and air filters more $ and more often.
If you have to make a repair on the diesel it costs more.  Sometimes most of the time a lot more.


The 6.4 ford diesels are not known for good mileage. 


I love diesels.  But they have just gotten too expensive.  Unless your hauling for a living. 

And why is diesel fuel higher priced than gas?  When oil prices were high a short time ago diesel was $1 higher than gas.  It just ticks me off.

Tim
Tim

Slingshot


  Not too many years ago diesel fuel was always lower priced than gas. I suppose
the increased use of diesel engines inspired the oil companies to make a larger profit
on diesel fuel.   sling_shot



__________________________
Charles

Gary_C

I'd say the least useful option would be the duallys. The only reason for them is a higher GVWR if you absolutely need it and most trailers don't. I have a dually only because I have a 24,000 lb rated trailer that I use occasionally. The rest of the time, it's there just to eat tires.

There are actually three options that I would never give up in a pickup. I would not even look at one unless it had diesel, four wheel drive, and an extended cab. And a very close fourth thing would be a full box but that's because I have to carry a fuel tank everywhere and still be able to use my fifth wheel hitch.

As far as diesel being higher than gas, right now it should not be as the wholesale price of diesel is lower than gas. The reason diesel has been higher is because so much diesel is being sent to Europe where they have so many diesel powered autos and trucks. And there are limits on the ratio of diesel to gas that can be extracted from crude. Refiners are adding equipment and technology to get more diesel, but that comes at a price. It's possible right now that diesel is lower just because of the economic problems in Europe.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

malcolmtent

Hmmm. You put four guys in a room, you get five ideas!

What's clear, though, is that I MUST have 4 wheel drive. After that, I think that just getting a good truck and living with the choice is where I am.

Anyone got a nice 4x4 for sale? $5k tops?

etkoehn

Diesel, 4x4 and if you can get a dodge you will get good millage. Dually are nice for towing but they are so wide so that's why i don't care for them. And remember diesels last a long time. My old ford has over 200k its barely broke and and the still runs great.
Farm Boy

scsmith42

With two 7K axle's and an empty weight of 4K, your net trailer capacity will be 10K, plus what you transfer to the tow vehicle.  That equates into about 2000 bd ft of green oak logs.

A gooseneck hitch will allow you to place more weight on the truck; this is where a dually shines because you've just increased your trailer payload by the capacity of the two additional tires - typically around 6K lbs.  Thus, a gooseneck trailer with two 7K axle's pulled behind a dually should be able to safely carry around 16K on it, presuming that the trailer axle's are far enough to the rear to allow you to distribute the weight between trailer and truck.  That's over 1000 bd ft of additional capacity - which represents a 50% increase in what you're carrying....

I concur about 4wd being important.  The nice thing about a dually is that you typically have better braking than with a SRW, because of the added contact patch for the additional tires.  From a safety perspective, my second choice (after 4wd) would therefore be dual rear wheels.

The last choice would be a diesel.

If I were you, I'd look for a pre-'03 Ford or Dodge diesel dually that is not totally worn out.  They have a lot of carrying capacity, good braking, and have tough drivetrains (plus they are pre EPA Tier II emissions).  You can probably find something in your price range if you shop hard enough.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

ErikC

 I would get a 4 wheel drive for sure. I see little advantage to a dually, and the disadvantages are not worth it to me. Unless you only tow a heavy trailer when you drive it. My little 3/4 ton diesel tows 12,000 lbs easily and safely, and will do a lot more if you want. I think if you need duals for the job, you also need a bigger truck, like an F450, with it's added weight and much better brakes. JMO
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

Gary_C

Quote from: malcolmtent on June 07, 2010, 10:49:51 AM

Anyone got a nice 4x4 for sale? $5k tops?

Yep. Got a 1992  F-250 regular cab, 4 wheel with a long box with a 7.3 diesel. Got over 250K miles and a list of things needing fixing. Some major things and some minor things but with 2 new batteries and 4 good tires it should at least run. Easily $5K tops.  :D :D

Quote from: scsmith42 on June 07, 2010, 11:45:22 AM

A gooseneck hitch will allow you to place more weight on the truck; this is where a dually shines because you've just increased your trailer payload by the capacity of the two additional tires - typically around 6K lbs.  Thus, a gooseneck trailer with two 7K axle's pulled behind a dually should be able to safely carry around 16K on it, presuming that the trailer axle's are far enough to the rear to allow you to distribute the weight between trailer and truck.  That's over 1000 bd ft of additional capacity - which represents a 50% increase in what you're carrying....


Sorry Scott, it doesn't work quite that well. The tires are downrated when used as duals and you are also limited by the rear axle capacity on the truck. You would have to have a 12K axle to take full advantage of those duals and they just don't make them for those pickups. So you probably get about 2000 lbs additional capacity.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

tyb525

If you don't go with the dually, make sure the truck has LT tires rated for the load range you are looking at - E, F , G.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Chris Burchfield

For 5g's you'll be in an older market, which is good.  The new Ford & GM products in diesel require an afterburner in the exhaust.  This requires an additional oil reservoir to cause these engines to meet current EPA standards.  The current Dodge/Cumins meets the EPA standards and does not require the additional reservoir.  If you were in a newer market I'd say go quick with the D/C combo in a 5.9.  Won't be long before the Cumins will not be available through Dodge.  I have an 07 6.9 Cumins without modifications.  The EPA on mileage doesn't impress me.  I have a seven year extended warranty that I don't want to void with deletes or added power packs.  I get 16 mpg @ 55 empty on the highway.  12.5 city with redlights and babying it.  The longevity of the diesel is what I was after with a 4X4 manual shift dually.  Someone mentioned earlier in the post of safety.  Stability in a turn and additional contact in tread to roadway for stopping were additional concerns for me.  I'll eat the two tires for the safety I picked up in a dually.  Good luck with your decision.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

stumpy

In my opinion, I would stick with the 4x4 and diesel.  The dual wheels are nice and definitely help when pulling a heavy trailer especially at highway speeds.  The problem is, The real benefit of duals will only be realized when you are maxing it out i.e. heaviest load at highway speeds.  On the other hand, you will always appreciate the diesel at all speeds and weights.  Plus, if your ambitious, you can make your own diesel fuel for a fraction of the price.
Woodmizer LT30, NHL785 skidsteer, IH 444 tractor

scsmith42


[/quote]
Sorry Scott, it doesn't work quite that well. The tires are downrated when used as duals and you are also limited by the rear axle capacity on the truck. You would have to have a 12K axle to take full advantage of those duals and they just don't make them for those pickups. So you probably get about 2000 lbs additional capacity.


[/quote]

Hmm... Gary, of the four F350 / F450 duallys that I've owned in the last ten years, three have have had load range E tires, 235/85R16 or thereabouts, with a load per tire of around 3,100 lbs.  My current dually has H rated 19.5's with a 4K rating per tire, and my two GMC 5500 chassis also have the 19.5's.  Yes, they are downgraded slightly for dual wheels, but it would still be in the 5K - 6K range for the two extra tires on an F350.

A quick glance at the Ford web site indicates that the max payload capacity for their 2011 F350's to be in the 5,700-6,200 range, so I don't think that my gooseneck specs are that overrated (perhaps a little, but not much).  Yes, probably somewhat less than 6K, but certainly more than 2K!
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Gary_C

My current F-350 dually has a GVWR of 11500 lbs. and it has 235-85R16's. Previous F-350 single rear's had a GVWR of about 9000 lbs. with 235-85R16's. They will carry far more than that but Ford will not rate them higher.

I pull a fifth wheel grain trailer which is front heavy and go across the scale sometimes with as much as 14,000 lbs total pickup weight, which is about 10,000 lbs on the rear axle. That puts me within the tire ratings but way over the rear axle rating and GVWR on the pickup. I've never had a tire or axle problem but should probably put helper airbags on the rear axle.

But if I was to spend much money on grain hauling I would get a semi grain trailer and quit using my pickup. The brakes are inadequate and it is far cheaper to haul with a semi. Plus you can get a darn good semi with 700K miles for $10,000 and they are good for a million miles or more. Beats the heck out of running those $40,000 pickups to the max ratings.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

wannasaw

Sunday When I went to pick up my saw after a rainstorm. I dug the sawdust from in front of the saw tires and shoveled it where the F-250 single rear tires were going to pull from ...Got stuck. I know we could have used 2nds under it to, but what a pain. Had the customers tractor waiting near so no problem. But I'm lookin for 4 wheel, every thig else is second to that. All customers may not have a tractor. Then what? Bought a warn winch today at tractor supply. Hope they didn't cut all the trees! My 2 cent. Good luck.
LT28 70something Int'l Backhoe loader  Kubota L285, Husky 55, F-250 7.3, 12'x6' single axle trailer, Kubota RTV900 w/remote hyd. Iron will...

scsmith42

Quote from: Gary_C on June 07, 2010, 07:43:44 PM


But if I was to spend much money on grain hauling I would get a semi grain trailer and quit using my pickup. The brakes are inadequate and it is far cheaper to haul with a semi. Plus you can get a darn good semi with 700K miles for $10,000 and they are good for a million miles or more. Beats the heck out of running those $40,000 pickups to the max ratings.

Gary, I concur 100%.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

etkoehn

So this is what I am thinking Malcolmtent. You need to buy several pickups. With different options. So that way you get everything you want and all the best combinations :D
Farm Boy

paul case

hey if you do it that way surely you would always have one running to drive! and if you get to thinking you need a new pickup you can just drive a different one of your own and it will feel like a new one,except for that new truck smell of course.  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

malcolmtent

The thing about a new truck is that the smell of new kills the smell of money.

Thanks, but I'll pay cash for a used banger......

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