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Could This be Worth Millions?

Started by DeepWoods, May 19, 2010, 09:24:45 PM

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DeepWoods

Got to thinking about how the sawmill has changed over time, and wondered about the future of sawmills.  My question, and I will understand if you are on the floor laughing by the time you finish reading it is, would it be possible to build a mill that used laser power, or a Flowjet (high pressure water) machine to cut lumber.  Tried to think of reasons why it would not work, and couldn't.  So would those of you that have much more grey matter than I, please explain why my thinking is flawed.  Both lasers and Flowjets can cut steel, so why not wood?  No blades to resharpen, no pitch buildup, no wavy cuts, very little kerf.  So why not?
Norwood LM2000 with 23 HP Briggs and 21 foot track, Hand Built Logging Arch, Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener and Setter. 48" Xtreme Duty Logrite Cant Hook.

Kansas

My initial question is, how fast could it cut. And how deep? could you cut a 24 inch wide cut? It is an intriguing idea.

LOGDOG

Seems like we talked about this at one time on here. I'd have to do a search. Maybe someone else remembers the when and what that came of the conversation.

Kansas

I do have one more thought about it. Heard an old joke one time about a chemistry student who excitedly tells his teacher that he has created a solvent that will melt any substance. Chemistry teacher calmly looks at him and asks "how are you going to bottle it?"
What happens when that beam of light or water gets to the other side. How do you stop it?

beenthere

Several have been doing wood cutting over the last 30-40 years with both techniques (and still do in certain applications) but not practical for sawing logs. The energy cannot be focused but for a small distance or depth in wood...then it fans out so there is no savings (and none of that useful sawdust  ;D ).

There have been a lot of attempts to beat the cutting tooth of a saw blade at its game, including slicing thick boards like veneer is sliced. To little avail, but spending lots of research develpment dollars. 

Some intense searches will bring up a lot of information, I'm sure.

High pressure water has its place, in cookie-cutter type applications and in making puzzles, for example. 

But keep thinking about it, and you may find a breakthrough.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

DeepWoods

I guess when it comes to stopping the cut, whatever works when they cut steel would be the same process for wood.  I usually don't have original ideas, I've always figured that if I can think of it, someone has beaten me to it, so it is possible that it has been discussed here before.  I also have a very poor memory so if it was, that is probably where the idea came from, and I just thought it was my idea 
Norwood LM2000 with 23 HP Briggs and 21 foot track, Hand Built Logging Arch, Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener and Setter. 48" Xtreme Duty Logrite Cant Hook.

Tom

We did discuss this once upon a time.  Water, as I recall, has been tried.  The problem is at least two-fold.  Wood doesn't present a rigid enough surface to control the flow of water and the cut is quite ragged.  Water also spreads as it slows in the cut, so the kerf begins very narrow at the entry point and broadens at the exit point, either blowing the wood out of the kerf or not making it through.

sgschwend

Both methods you ask about seem to be very brute force, not much different than saw blades are today.

How about thinking down in the microscopic level.  If you take your saw and think of the surface that holds the teeth as a working platform.  On this platform there is a word processor or machine shop.  Instead of teeth you have this long ribbon with a machine shop on the cutting edge.  Something like a diamond saw but everything much smaller and the cutters are actually active (the cutters have their own power).  When brought into contact with wood it removes all that it touches. 

Sometime folks call this stuff nano-technology (nano meaning a billion times smaller than normal).
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Magicman

Really guys, the ultimate sawing machine has already been invented, and it has made millions. It's called a .......WoodMizer.    :D :D :D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brad_S.

I have been , as DanG would say, cogitating on my Celmosep (Cellulose Molecule Separator) for some time now. My machine will separate the wood fibers at the microscopic level, creating no sawdust and leaving a polished smooth surface right off the Celmosep. I am sure I am near a break through, all that is holding me back is a complete lack of knowledge regarding the physics needed to accomplish this.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

sparks

If you notice with any water cutting equipment it cuts very very slow. Would be hard to get any great production to pay for the cost of design. 
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

rph816

I don't know enough about the physics either, but it seems that there is a real disconnect between industries.  There is already all kinds of cutting equipment like this in the metal and composites industries, wire, laser, water etc.  Maybe talk to someone in the industry that has a machine, maybe they'd even let you bring a board or two to try (doubtful as the equipment is expensive) but they might also know of some limitations i.e. conductivity.  Either way, innovation is cool.  As for the ultimate sawing machine, I have to say woodmizer is not it (and that's not just because I own a Timberking).  Our little portable toys don't hold a candle to real sawmills.  If you ever get the chance, check out one of Weyerhauser's or GP's facilities.  Capacities in the hundreds of thousands of Bd. Ft. per day.  Now that's the real deal.  1,200 HP running a 6" wide band... makes me drool a little bit.

Ryan

ARKANSAWYER

 
Quote from: sparks on May 20, 2010, 12:53:26 PM
If you notice with any water cutting equipment it cuts very very slow. Would be hard to get any great production to pay for the cost of design. 


  In that case Sparks we will call it a "BAKER Sawmill."   
:D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D   :D   :D   :D   :D   :D   :D  :D   :D   :D   :D  :D  :D

(sorry I could not help myself)
ARKANSAWYER

abooley

I run three Mazak lasers in tandem with a material handeling system. We can cut virtually anything with them. Normally I cut mild steel in 5' x 10' sheets, from 3/4" down to 16ga. Once the beam exits the material I am cutting it disipates reletively quickly. The beams focal point determines the optimum cutting range for nozzel to surface of the steel. As far as cutting wood. The feedrate has to be very fast. 1" thick would require nearly 120 IPM, this is what I cut 7ga steel at. The size of the laser would be the deterrent to a laser for cutting logs. The footprint of the lasers I run are 12' x 22' and the thickest possible cut would only be about 4 inches. The little I know about lasers tells me that in order to generate a beam that would be able to be focused to cut a log the power unit would have to be immense. In theory it could be done, but practicality would prevent it being carried out. I'll stick with my Woodmizer for the logs.
aboo

stonebroke

I heard that the railroads cut out the hardwood floors of old boxcars with a 40,000lb pressure washer.

Stonebroke

thecfarm

We use water jets at work to cut carpet with a special nozzle and jewel at around 50,000 psi. Cost ALOT for regular wear and tear parts. Use to be $2000 just for a small rebuild.Would not surprise the bill would be $20,000 a week and that is just regular maintenance.Probaly with a special nozzle it could be done,but how much would the research cost to find the correct psi and nozzle. We use .005 and .007 jewels and I have used a piece of hardwood pallet,3/8,just to support a part and it did not cut through it after 10-20 times. The wood just made a mess on the part. Than you need a track too. High pressure line is expensive too. We blow coils weekly,meaning small holes in the coils.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ARKANSAWYER

 We can not cut logs with water.  That would be "water boarding" and the Democrates would not stand for that.   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
ARKANSAWYER

DeepWoods

So based on the number of replies, it sounds like if I wanted to make a million  dollars cutting wood with water or laser, would be to start out with 2 million and go up from there.  Guess I will stick with my Norwood.  Knowing there will always be a need for wood products, it will be interesting to see  in my lifetime if someone does come up with a "new" way to do things.

Les
Norwood LM2000 with 23 HP Briggs and 21 foot track, Hand Built Logging Arch, Cooks Cat Claw Sharpener and Setter. 48" Xtreme Duty Logrite Cant Hook.

Toolman

I came up with this idea of sawing logs. You take an 1 1/2 " wide metal band, cut out teeth on it and power it with a gas engine. It would be similar to a bandsaw, except it would be laying sideways. You move the entire machine across the log as it lays on a bed........wait a minute, I'm looking at TK ad on the left side of this screen. Looks like this has already been done. Forget it, I'll have to think of something different... ;D
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

LOGDOG

Quote from: ARKANSAWYER on May 21, 2010, 01:59:34 PM
We can not cut logs with water.  That would be "water boarding" and the Democrates would not stand for that.   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

We could just post a picture of Nancy Pelosi at the end of the log deck and watch the logs fall apart into boards out of fright at the shear sight of her.  :o

Meadows Miller

Gday

well the way i see things is that alot of money has already been put into researching these two methods over the last 30 odd years to no real gain  ;) Saws as we know them Circs and bands will be the two main sawing units in all mills for a verry long time to come and will only become more refined  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

ARKANSAWYER

  I was thinking of making a frame saw.  You take a frame about 4 ft wide and 6 ft long.  Yout take a bunch of my broken blades and put them about every inch apart in the frame.  Then you just get a wind mill to pump it up and down and feed a log through.  It would be like a powered pit saw.  Then the whole log would be cut in 1 inch boards and I could just edge them to width.
LOGDOG is catching on!  8)
ARKANSAWYER

paul case

sounds good arkie and certainly may be the GREENIEST sawmill ever! pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Meadows Miller

Gday

Arky i also recon Logdog would have to develop a new kinda safety glases for the operator with his new method though Mate  :o :o :o ;) :D :D :D :D :D

Sash Gangs are good  ;) ;D 8) lakssagen.com has a light duty one avalable for about $20000 per sawing unit  and my personal preferance would be for a H/dutyLink gang saw line if you where in consitiant log dia but settup costs are steep with them and they need about 200 to 250hp theres a 74 mod Link line with two sash gangs and and two edgers running about 2.5 hrs from me that puts out about 100000bft per shift these days in 8" to 18" dia pine logs Mate  ;)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Cedarman

5 1/2 years ago we were told that you couldn't make good mulch out of whole down and brown cedar trees.  I am glad we didn't believe the experts.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

paul case

some people's much may just be a whole lot more than ours. i like the dead downed trees .gives me a good feeling to make something out of someonelses '''junk'''. the feeling im refering to is green in my wallet. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Jeff

Apparently you have all missed the fact that Burger King has figured it out.

http://www.bk.com/en/us/company-info/press/news-item91.html
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

ARKANSAWYER


  I could use that gal in the log yard bucking off logs.  She was quite good with that saw.
ARKANSAWYER

Magicman

What saw  ???  She had a saw  ???  ;D :D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

ARKANSAWYER

At least my guys would show up for work weither I got them to do much or not would be the question then.  Oh yea she had a saw!
ARKANSAWYER

paul case

i dont need someone else to watch for me to mess up , but i would like to have a bar like that on my saw! pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

BBTom

all we need to do is tell Congress that there is cash money inside logs.  They will spend $300 Billion to develop a system to dismantle the logs to get to the cash.  Of course that $300B will be borrowed from China and the cash will be pocketed by special interest groups.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

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