I joined this forum because I need advice on what to do with my 100 acre woodlot

[farmacist]

I need your advice and after reading over much of this forum this seems to be the place to get "good" advice. I own a 100+ acre woodlot in the Adirondack Park in south western Clinton County NY.  My lot was cut over 15 yrs ago and most of the old growth, large saw logs were removed. 10 yrs ago we had a "ice storm" which damaged the sugar bush and 25% of the tops of birch and soft red maple were destroyed but the spruce and white pine did not seem to be damaged. I realize that I should hire forester to give me advice but first I am coming to you for the basic advice and knowledge that I need to have so I can talk with foresters and loggers. I need the money I could get from having the piece logged and I am too old to "do it myself" therefore I need to let someone come in to turn my woodlot into cash. I need to get the maximum dollar  return but at the same time I do not want to end up with a mess or with 100 acres of trash. Two different loggers have talked with me and both agreed that I do not need to spend the money to hire a forester. One would take saw logs and chip the rest leaving many good trees per acre. The other logger says he will take the saw logs and the pulp logs and  he says that it is best for the property to leave the tops to rot where they fell. As you can see I am in a situation I know nothing about. Can you give me good unbiased advice please?? Thanx

[maple flats]

Get a forester, their fee is money well spent. They will mark the trees with your goals in mind and will manage the sale. You will have a better woodlot after than before with a forester handling it unless you tell him you need absolute most cash generated now as your goal.
I suggest you contact a forester before anything is done with a logger. Most loggers worth their salt will say the same thing but many who look to take advantage of the unknowing woodlot owner say otherwise. If you check on this forum you will find many forester as members and you would do well to use one. On the other side, many counties have foresters paid by your taxes as does the State of NY. My woods were put on a forest stewardship plan by using the free services of a State forester. However, he did not mark trees but gave me guidelines to do my own (and I am my own logger). It does seem he would offer a list of loggers who have a good reputation but would not say which was best to use. If you hire a forester he is totally in your corner and his services are usually either a set fee or a % of the sale. My opinion is that set fee is better because the forester is not driven by the sale $ exclusively.
Good luck.
Dave

[Gary_C]

Hire a forester or you will get to come back after the job is done to say "look how my woodlot got ruined."

[Tom]

Get a Forester and let him do all the footwork and paperwork and follow his recommendations for replanting.

I would be leery of a used car salesman who told me that I didn't need a mechanic's check and then followed up with a statement like, "trust me".

A good Forester will take all of the stress off of you for mere pennies on the dollar.  You can start with your county Forester for a list of Foresters.  Be prepared to be honest with him about what you want.  Sometimes having a Forester gets you more money.

Many loggers like to hear you say, "I want all the money out of this that I can get".  That's because they want all the money they can get out of it too.  Money spent on clean-up or replanting is money out of their pocket and the fly-by-nighters won't do it.  A Forester will hold them to a contract and make sure that a contract exists.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, seek out the services of a professional forester to advise you in the management of your 100 acre woodlot to meet your objectives. The service can come from you local conservation district forester, DNR service forester or by hiring a certified consulting forester.

FORESTER OR LOGGER

It is important to distinguish between the Forester and the Logger. The Forester is responsible for designing the forest plan, selecting the silvicultural system, planning for regeneration, determining the need for intermediate treatments, and arranging for the harvest. Silviculture is the art and science of tending and regenerating forest vegetation. The proper choice of silvicultural treatments depends on the interaction of timber types, soil and forest conditions, forest wildlife, and the landowner's objectives. Sustaining the forest ecosystem through integrated resource management should be included in the choice of treatments and the manner in which they are carried out.

A professional Forester can decide which silvicultural system and Best Management Practices for water quality protection are best suited for a forest stand. The Logger is the person who does the timber harvesting (logging) of the timber stand in accord with the management prescription developed by the Forester. The Logger produces the commercial forest products from the timber stand. Such products may include veneer logs, sawlogs, pulpwood, poles, posts, fuelwood, wood chips, or specialty products. The work activities of logging usually include felling, bucking, skidding, decking, and hauling. The three major types of harvesting methods used in Michigan are shortwood, tree length, and whole tree methods. Foresters and Loggers working closely together can provide prudent and environmentally sound forest management for the landowner.

[Mark K]

I have cut behind our local forester. I like it because all the leg work and permits are all taken care of. They stop in from time to time to see how progress is going and to check on any damage and stream crossings. I think it would be worth for you to have a forester come in and evaluate your woods. A contract would be a must in any situation.

[g_man]

I would also advise you to at least talk to a forester. Let him look at your
property and explain to you the likely results of any decisions you make.
Your county forester will do this for free.
My 170 acre woodlot was high-graded and ripped by a logger 15 years ago.
( I bought it from him after he was done). He bought it then cut it to maximize the
cash return. I am not faulting him. It is just how he makes his living.
It will be a long long time before it is a healthy sustainable producer of wood products
again.
Have you considered selling it? That would probably bring you the most.

[ID4ster]

You're better off to talk with some consulting foresters and let them guide you through the process. If you just go with a logger you'll end up poorer and with a less attractive stand to sell afterwards than you would with a good consultant forester. Contact the DEC office in your area and see if they have a staff forester that can come out for a visit and begin to guide you through the process. The State DEC foresters are paid for by your tax dollars and so that visit will be free. Also contact the local chapter of the NYFOA, (New York Forest Landowners Association) and see if one of their master forest landowners are in your area. They can also come out and begin to guide you through the process and their initial visits are free of charge also. Finally contact the forestry department at Paul Smith's College down at Paul Smith's, NY. Tell them what you have and they may be able to send some of their more senior students to help you out. Since it is a real world situation you  can probably get some help (like a timber cruise) from them for a very minimal fee. In the end though get yourself a professional consultant forester with good credentials. It will pay of in the long and short run far more than letting the loggers run wild.

[WDH]

100 acres is too many to mess up.  You need a professional forester.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! on 100 acres being too many to mess up. Ecosystem management needs to be applied in a professional manner.

[OneWithWood]

I agree with all the advice given.  You have a great opportunity to learn about your woodlot and further your goals by consulting with qualified foresters.  Loggers are in the business to make money, not look after your best interest.

I had a harvest on my 100 acres in 2002.  I utilized a consulting forester and I am glad I did.  The very same logging crew that did a very nice job on my property have laid waste to a number of other properties.  The biggest reason they did a good job on my property is because the forester was known to them and included them on bids he let.  I like to think that my talking with them everyday and keeping an eye on things helped some.

If you decline to enlist the help of a qualified forester you will regret it.

[PAFaller]

Just a note on foresters too, maybe playing devils advocate here but do your homework on them as well. I'm not sure if New York has a licensing program or not, but here in PA there is nothing in place in that regard. As with any industry this lack of oversight has opened up plenty of room for bad apples to enter the business. Without going into too much detail I can say that many of these outfits are simply timber brokers, who sell off a landowners timber for what is sometimes a 15-20% commission. Because they are payed on commission very few mark the pulpwood and low-grade that should come out to improve the health of the overall stand. Instead, they too mark the highest, most valuable, and most attractive material to sawmills and loggers. These jobs are easy to sell because they contain minimal 'junk' as most guys refer to it and just material worth hauling to the mill. While these outfits do solicit bids, as its in their best interest to get as much as possible too, the work they are doing is not forestry. There are many good foresters out there, but just do a little research and ask for references before you commit to hiring someone. Any good land management professional should work for you the client, and should therefore be 'applying' for the job so to speak.

[JimMartin9999]

I second that.  There is no effective evaluation system out there which keeps an eye on consulting foresters and there are lots of them who claim to be on your side but are only on their own side.  The NYFOA and the Master Forest Owner organizations are good bets for advice about who the good guys and bad guys are.  The DEC foresters are probably not allowed to pass judgement on the consulting foresters on their "Cooperating foresters list, " but if you are sensitive to body language , you might pick up on their opinions.  They have them but are very careful about expressing them. 
    A good sign is if a forester talks more about the the trees he is leaving than about the ones he is selling.

[BaldBob]

There is a professional association for consulting foresters - The Association of Consulting Foresters - that maintains a very strict code of ethics for its members. I suggest you go to their website -http://www.acf-foresters.org.   There you can read their code of ethics (under the About ACF tab) and can also find a list of their members that work in your area (Find a Forester button).  They take complaints about the ethics/actions of their members very seriously and investigate them thoroughly. Members who violate the code of ethics have been booted out or placed on probation depending on the seriousness of the violation.

[chain]

Mr. farmacist, I've used at least five foresters in my 30yrs. or so in my forest management. I consult with them often and attend every forestry related meeting I can. Every one of them have contributed positively to the betterment of our forest. There's always something to learn; remember, you are your forest's keeper.  Ultimately, it is our responsiblity as property owners to manage our forests to the best of our abilities. Good Luck!

[Clark]

Farmacist,

I hope you didn't post this question hoping someone would tell you to just hire a logger and let them have at it.  I'm sure there are forums where you could get that answer but obviously not here.  Since you are new here I'll point out that at least one person recommending you to hire a forester is a logger and there may be several others also.

Feel free to ask more questions and get to the bottom of why you should or shouldn't hire a forester.  Please don't reject the advice given because you will only "hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest", you'll only be cheating yourself, your property and the properties future owners.

Clark

[farmacist]

I thank you all for your great comments and viewpoints. This is a great site, in just 5 days I have received 15 responses, 532 views, and  unanimous opinions that have pointed me toward talking to a forester. I have made an appointment with the State forester and am waiting for an appointment with a private forester. I will update this subject post as my search proceeds. Thanxs again

[Bill_G.]

Just have to weigh in on this. I have been in the logging-Lumber business 30+ years. I have worked with some excellent Foresters and I have worked with some morons. These moron Foresters are licensed,how I will never understand. I refer to these type of foresters as Tree Chasers, they will go through your woodlot with their Moron Loggers chasing every large quality tree there is leaving so much damage in their wake it would stagger you. And you will get their fine service for a mere 25% of the total sale. Do your homework on both the Forester and the Logger. There are many qualified Loggers out there that are perfectly capable of doing what you want done without paying for a Forester. I would first contact my local county Forester and go from there, this is usually a free service. Just because you have a State issued license doesn't mean your not stupid or not a crook. A lot of folks will spend time trying to save 25 cents on a loaf of bread , but will sell $25,000.00 worth of timber with no research at all. Do your homework, get references, look at their other jobs. Any Forester or Logger worth their salt will be more than happy to show you their work. You can only sell a tree once.

[thecfarm]

I would go see both of their work before letting anyone cut on my land. I have seen some real bad jobs in this area,but have seen some real good ones.You have to live with a bad job for ever.

[maple flats]

I fully agree on checking out past jobs from both the forester and logger, and not just a one or 2 list but ask for the last 5 jobs they did and pick at least 2 and then ask for 5 jobs from at least a yr and better 3-4 yrs ago and check a couple. REmember, the list will not contain the jobs where the landowner may have been unhappy with something. I also say the woods is too valuable not to use a forester, not 100 acres but even 10 acres is well worth it as a landowner and steward of the land. The cost may be higher and rightfully so if the acreage and /or sale is small but it is still worth it for your forest's good being and the value of future sales. Done right the second and third sale are often worth more than the first unless you have a good high quality inventory the first time. But that is likely very rare.
Good luck, the learning will be very valuable as this progresses. Don't rush in. The trees are gaining value while things get set to make the sale. More certain than money in the bank (or stock market)

[KBforester]

I don't want to beat a dead horse... but I'm a forester, now living in Maine, that formerly managed 85,000 acres in Clinton and Franklin County NY, and I think its wise your looking into a forester. NY does not have a licensing program for foresters, so talking to a state forester is a really good start. Trust me, there are some real butchers in that part of the state.

[BARPINCHER]

I'll give out a plug here and say you should contact PAFaller and see if he would be interested in taking a look at it and see if it is something he could tackle.  He will def not steer you wrong.