What to plant?

[Don P]

Our clients were asking advice on trees to plant for a windbreak on the west of the house.about 100 ft from the structure and 600-800 ft long. To the north and south there are adequate hedgerows established and they have been cleaning them up and interplanting various seedlings from the conservation district. Between the house and the south row they are prepping for a native grass and flower replant,similar to a planting at the local forest preserve. In the east-west direction we are in the middle of about a 2 mile long field. Winds of approximately 40MPH are very frequent and we had one that went over 70, caused a little damage.

 The adjoining fields are planted to corn and beans. I recommended White pines, and have been rethinking. The crops nowadays are all "Roundup ready" (don't get me started on  my opininions about selecting for resistant weeds) but that leaves them potentially needing a tree or mix that is tolerant of inadvertant drift. Our veggie garden was right against the field and the farmer was good about waiting for a back wind to spray but you can't count on that year after year.

They have looked into semi load prices on 6' b+b white pines out of TN at around $50 each so recommendations on a closer supply of whatever is the best choice would also be appreciated.
Any recomendations?

[CHARLIE]

I suggest they contact their state's Department of Natural Resources (DNR).  I think they will even help them design a windbreak.  Here in Minnesota, a lot of farm homes are located in a small oak grove and then they'll have a windbreak or two of Blue Spruce, which are planted close together (sometimes they'll have more than one row. But anyway, the Blue Spruce seems to be the tree of choice here for a windbreak.  ???

[swampwhiteoak]

I'm hesitant to give an exact recommendation because I'm not real familiar with your area.  

White pine tends to get wind-burnt fairly bad when it's young.  Usually when I design windbreaks I only put white pine in a multiple row design toward the middle in the windward row.  If you planted a shrub in front of it, it might shelter it enough to really get going without burning it.

As far as resistance to Roundup, well no plants are.  Glyphosate is non-selective (with the obvious freak-gene-crop exceptions) , which is one of the reasons it has been so highly used for the past 25 years.  I don't know for sure if which trees would be "more tolerant" than others.  Instinct tells me white pine might not be real tolerant. But I don't really know.

The time to really watch herbicide damage is the first few years.  A bigger tree can take the drift a lot better than a small one.  Tell the farmer to be real careful those first 5-10 years when the tree is establishing itself.

I always recommend bareroot stock or tublings, but then again, I'm a pimp for the state nursery. ;D

I'd be real hesitant on bringing trees up from TN.  Genes should be different.  A TN tree might not get ready for winter until Nov.

[Jeff]

Don where are you working right now? Are you out of state? Might help if the foresters knew exactly where this is at. Might be some landowners out there looking in that have had success already.

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't think I would go with white pine as a wind break.   I've seen a lot of these blow over when the ground gets saturated and the wind picks up.

Need to know the location better.

If you're not looking for a fast growing tree, maybe Eastern red cedar.  They're pretty resistant to lots of things.

Other species to consider are white cedar, blue spruce,  norway spruce or hemlock.  Maybe an interplanting of several species.

[Don P]

Oops, sorry should have said, yes I'm in an altered state, Illinois, the Rock River valley. The reason for the B+B (balled in burlap) trees was they were 6 footers, so instant forest. He gots a hydraulic hoedad ;D I guess what I was trying to say is they are willing to pay a certain premium to get a jump, If you'd seen this Spring's winds you'd understand why. Had to get up in the little calm just before daybreak and snap all the lines for the day, or end up with a concave house :D
Had been trying to figure the edge browning across the road in the EWP windrow and I'll bet it is windburn, hadn't thunk that. The existing rows are old and in tough shape but were never maintained and I reasoned take alot of stress from drift, and wind, they are basically 3 rows deep.
 Blue spruce is doing well in a planting down the road, and there is a white pine christmas tree farm not far.

[Jeff]

I would think if this is an inherently windy area,  wouldn't planting larger trees be risky? I would think that a tree needs to grow with the wind in order to be a strong specimen and become the windbreak you are looking for.


In the U.P I see a lot of White Cedar. It makes almost a hedge, but slow growing!

Most wind breaks I see here locally are usually 3 rows deep of norway or spruce.

[Don P]

A very good point about growing in situ against the prevailing winds. We have 6' giant sunflowers that have remained standing and its because they grew strong against the wind I'm sure. Might have to do no till and let the stubble break the wind for a few years ;D
Only cedar I've seen here is the eastern red cedar, one in the row by the camper. Faster than the white cedar, I've got some posts on the house out of the white that are about 8" diameter and you lose count of the rings.
 
 Do leylands make it this far north? They're sure fast.

I guess another advantage of going to bareroot would be the quantity they would then put in.  There would be a few years to wait for results, but its also all part of it. I'll have to go over to the forest preserve and look around too.

[Ron Scott]

I'd check with the Conservation District Forester serving your area. They usually know the local species  preferred for windbreaks in your area. Also trees that are characteristic to the local landscape. They often have instructions and schematics on how to plant functional windbreaks.

Some will even cost share with you in the planting of the windbreaks if you have an approved Landowner Stewardship Plan prepared that calls for windbreaks.

Staggered rows of close spacing, at least 6 rows preferred, of local conifer species, Norway spruce is very good as are most spruce. Can mix rows of different species,even underplant periodically, the thicker the better, since stopping wind and maybe snow is the objective.

Some of the counties have a windbreak program or encourage landowners to plant windbreaks along their rural roads.

[Don P]

Thanks for the great info folks. I'll hand all this over to them tomorrow evening. We've talked about some of it tonight.
 
Although... the only effective way I know to stop snow is to keep driving till you hit T-shirt weather ;D

[CHARLIE]

Righchere in tropical Minnesota, the State......in their infinite wisdom......are paying farmers more per bushel than the market value for them to leave several rows of corn standing along certain highways.  This is in hopes that the corn will serve as a "windbreak" or a "snowfence" and keep the snow from drifting across the highway during our short temperate winters. ;D  They figger that money they pay the farmers to leave the corn standing would be less than continually running a snowplow back and forth. I hope it works so they'll reduce our 8% income tax to.....ahhh...maybe 1%    :D :D :D :D ???  

Hey DONP!  Maybe they should plant a corn windbreak! They could replant every year. The benefit would be that not only would it "breakwind" ;D, but the corn would draw deer which could result in plenty of venison in the freezer.  :

[swampwhiteoak]

I don't have a good idea if you're talking about an area that has previously been row-cropped or not.  If it has been row-cropped 2 out of the last 5 years then a windbreak should be eligible for Continuous CRP.  That way the landowners get paid for planting it.  Check with NRCS.  

Yeah, I'd definitely want the opinion of the local forester or conservation office before I spent a lot of money planting 6' trees.

Trees we use for windbreaks in NW Ohio:  Arborvitae (white-cedar), E. Redcedar, N. spruce, Austrian pine, European black alder, Baldcypress, blue spruce, and white pine.  Site selection will determine which to use.  

If you really want an instant windbreak, go with Austree willows or hybrid poplar.  But plant another row of an actual good tree to take over when those die. ;)

[Don P]

Ding-ding- ding, we have a real winner!  CRP,Yes it just came out of production, in fact the beans (this years rotation) are just on the other side of the "yard" gotta use that term loosly as I scrape the yard off my shoes before coming in right now. ;D
They took around 5 acres out of production, I was votin for a 5 acre woods, but then I'm a little on the biased side.
Haven't seen the Austree up close yet, the poplar are a boom and then bust, but you can about hear em grow.

Charlie the corn idea work, but I need a 30' 4 season variety :D Oh , we're back to poplars again ;D I kinda hate to admit anything in Illinois is better than in Virginia but they do put out a mighty fine grain fed deer.

[Tom]

Sometimes we create some really interesting stuff on our private messages that would benefit the whole board.  I was talking with DonP when I realized that he had created  one of these jewels.  He gave me permission to post it. I certainly enjoyed it as I do many other private messages.  Hope you do too.
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*don says*

Hi Tom,
I saw Jeff Green's post. Yup I think he'll fit in. Don't know what a Gilbert mill is...we must need a pic! Turned in my roll last week should be back soon.
What caught my eye is I do know where Branson is, we need to keep him around...you know what rooms around there run? :D :D

We are clear up at the top of the state around 15-20 miles SW of Rockford, 7 mi due N of Byron IL. The "hedgerows" here are just about everything. Elm, Burr oak, Redcedar, Pin Cherry, Red Maple...sorry it just got dark thats what comes to mind. The land here has a bit of roll to it. Have worked in Streator, S of Chicago and Springfield  way too flat for my soul, kinda funny what makes one feel at home, our place breaks your butt but just feels right. There's a wind farm planned not far from here.Here's the description I heard.  As the wind approaches a rise it is squeezed between the rising ground and the air above so it speeds up to get more volume thru a smaller area..thats this little spot. Charlies Idea on the couple of rows for snowfence was passed along as well as the foresters advice(neither of us knew NRCS but figgured it was ASCS in a new alphabet soup). we had been looking at the drive as it punches thru the N windbreak and it looks like the drifts are gonna pile up pretty deep there. He got an old Chevy plow truck in a horse trade a couple of months ago and has a dump he can outfit. It was the performance of the house we were hoping to improve. The soffit vents actually howl fairly often, the coke bottle whistle thing. Our roof won't have any venting problems 'less'n it's overventing.

Dad's still at the twin towers, boy I'm hoping those sob's don't pull anything else. Michelle just leaned up to say there are 20 million unexploded landmines in Afghanistan, man. I was watching Day of Discovery this AM. The core of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are so close...I'll never understand how we can't in this day find common ground, what a disappointment we must be. Sorry,shouldn't close on a bummer.

So I won't, House is looking great, Homies were here all day caulking and staining, both sets of folks also. They're all pumped. I'm a sucker for an atta boy, the little boy (8) has something positive to praise us on every day, definite personell managment material! :D Will throw up some inside pics on the website in a week or so.

*tom says*

Don,

What a great note.  I wish I knew when you were going to write like that because I would ask you the question on the forum.  We need good posts like that and if I could think of someway to get this one or one close to it on the forum I'de do it tonight. My mind is churning.

Yeah, I hear Branson is expensive.  My next ships reunion is supposed to be in Branson in two years.  Why we can't have it around a ship or port I don't know.  One of the choices was Minn.  Go figure.

Speakin of the common grounds of religion.  I just wish some would allow the others to exist.  It doesn't matter that we all believe the same thing as long we don't hurt one another.  Some religions, like Christianity in the middle ages, don't allow for anyone to believe anything else.  Pretty dumb for an organization that believes that religion is a personal thing.

I hope you took some pictures up in Ill.  I'de like to see some of what you have been talking about.  .............I will be glad when you get back and are able to spend some more time on it.(the forum)  It really needs some rejuvination after all this conflagration.  (like them big words?)

Travel safely

Tom

*don says*

:D Blame my english teacher. she introduced us to that stream of conciousness stuff. Got a 0 for that class period cause there was a pretty girl in front of me and I decided it might be better to look empty headed than fess up to that stream. :D
Sure if you want to post any of that, guess there was some on the windbreak info.
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[swampwhiteoak]

Alphabet soup from the Federal Government:

ASCS is now called FSA (Farm Service Agency), they handle the money side of conservation programs, as well as a lotta crop subsidy stuff.

SCS is now called NRCS (Natural Resource Conservation Service) they handle the technical side of conservation programs.

I think they just changed names to confuse everybody.

These two work pretty closely, so it's hard to tell who's who at times.  Some NRCS offices handle techical aspects of windbreaks (design, ect) and some offices give that responsibility to the state forestry agency, just depends.  FSA will always be the ones to handle the cash.

There's a lot of conservation programs out there to folks who don't mind tying up land for 10-15 years.  I personally am not to big on government subsidies, but I'll take conservation subsidies over crop subsidies any day.  If northern IL is anything like northwest OH, you guys can use the trees. ;)

[Don P]

Thanks Swamp,
The neighboring farmer and wife came by for a visit and to drop off a sack of apples and some still warm apple butter(you know if you put a dab on your forehead your tongue will slap you you silly trying to get it) :D. I was quizzing him and he even advanced that the yard and native grasses might qualify as a waterway...kind of a stretch but what the hay. He does know all the channels locally and offered to help. His windbreaks are 2 rows Norway spruce and one row blue, cause he likes the color.

Tom, don't have a shot facing West, the direction we really need protection but I do have one to show the area, the pic is looking to the NE. The barn roof is due E .6 miles away..the drive comes thru the trees to the N at the light spot  to my left.

Oh...that must not be me, that guy left all his gear in the truck. :-[

[Gordon]

Don this might be alittle late but I ran across this page and thought about your post. So here is a link be it as it may--some great info from Charlies way.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/listing_source.html?topic=3&subcat=90

Gordon

[Don P]

Gordon, you're definitely a link sniffer outer ;D Thanks.
Our homeowners have been overwhelmed the last couple of weeks with the evolving insides, so the info is not at all too late.
I've done a fast look over of the link and there's some info that I want to look harder at too. We tried filberts..ah, hazelnuts but probably put them in a bad location, I also plan on reading the info on this link and probably researching a bit more then trying them again...gotta feed our eclectic deer. They didn't like leylands but each one bit a branch off then spat it out.  :
They wiped the entire orchard but one that I planted with granddad's inheritance. :-/

Jeff, I saw a bug in Kevin's recent post that I had. A parenthesis surrounding an eight automatically makes a cool guy.

Gotta go tend a fire.

[Jeff]

Thats not called a bug, its called code. Thats why there is a button that says disable smilies for your posts, just in case your text somehow duplicates the code for a smiley


 8)  see? no smiley

[Don P]

Yup, the revelation was occuring to me as I was watching some pinus resinosa ( you know one of the sylvestra's) or old world pines...ok Red Pine turn to ashes. :D :D :D :D
I still hate disabling those smilies.

[Frank_Pender]

  Do P.  I am also a bit alte with this posting.  You might consider the KMX pine.  It is a fast grower for the Western Oregon and southern Oregon areas.  It likes dry and Wet both.  We have been using some of it for wind breaks and breaks for over spray in irrigation areas where sludge water is used on fields near highways.  Just a thought.  It was developed by a fell in Winston, Oregon area.  Oregon State University, Dept of foresty could probably help in the specific location of the fella.  I will try also.  Good luck in the break building business.  

[Don P]

Hi Frank,
 Tell me more about the KMX pine, thats a new one to me. What kind is it? what zones does it occupy? What is the growth rate?
 We have actually been home (VA) for about a month. When we left they had also scheduled with Pheasants Forever to come take a look and make suggestions. The pic below is facing due west across the homesite. I'm standing at the barn from the previous shot. As you can see the windbreaks were removed in the direction of the prevailing winds for well over a mile.


Thats the house above and to the right of the fencepost, between the short windbreaks to the north and south.
Our clients E-mailed the other day that they expect to be in in 2 weeks. For any other family I would say they would get to planting next fall, these guys...early spring :D. They were a joy to work with.

[Don P]

And now I guess I'm just showing off, this is what it looked like the last day we were there. :

[Jeff]

WOW, Can I have one Don?

[Don P]

Cost ya a hat ;D
Our clients E-mailed that they were moving in this past weekend 8)

[L. Wakefield]

   BEAUTY! ;D   lw

[Jeff]

The talent and knowledge and expertise on this board never ceases to amaze me, and the great part of it is, it gets better every time we get a new member.

From the mansion above to the beautiful fragile ornaments turned by Roger_T.  Simply and udderly amazing. Its Christmas for me everytime I come to this board and see one of these: