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Second battery on WM for full time hydraulics?

Started by pnyberg, April 20, 2010, 10:35:09 AM

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pnyberg

I understand that the contact strip arrangement for powering the hydraulics address a safety concern with walk-along mills, but I'm finding it really aggravating with the control station.  I'm there, the hydraulic levers are there, but they only work part of the time.

Since my mill is not a super, there's room in the hydraulics box for a second battery, and this seems to be the easiest solution.  This has been discussed in general terms before, but I can't find specifics about how to make the connections, and my knowledge of electrical circuits is not good enough to give me the confidence to just go ahead and do it.

It looks to me like all I have to do is ground the negative side of the second battery, and connect the positive terminal to the same side of the solenoid that the copper power strip is attached to.  Do I have this right? 

Thanks,
    Peter
No longer milling

logwalker

It is very basic wiring. Just add cables to the positive and negative terminals in the box. I put my second battery on a tray I welded up and bolted just ahead of the hydraulics box. It is down low and out of the way. But I am not portable any more so I don't know how that would work with trailering.

Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Bibbyman

Since you've got a remote with a cable track,  you can remove the strip and run SO cord (battery cable cord) in the track from the head to the pumps.  I did this and it's documented in the "Useful sawmill mods" topic.





I have a picture library just for this change out.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=684

I did it in three phases - first was to removed the contract strip and run the cable in the track.  Then I found out I wasn't getting a good ground so I ran a second cable just for the ground.

Then I came back and relocated the battery in the old pump box once it was gone.  You won't have to go that far and won't want to as you'll want to keep your pumps.  


Here is a link to the "Useful sawmill mods" posts about the change out.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.msg242177.html#msg242177

A little further along are somemore photos and info.  The link below is where I added another wire for the ground as I found the little ground button wasn't working everywhere down the track - sparks flew!..

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.msg265729.html#msg265729


Love the change.  just don't do any hydraulicn' when the saw is cutting!   ;D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

sparks

Bibby's trick is the way to go because you are connected to the mill battery. If you put a battery in the hydraulic box you will have nothing keeping it charged up so it will go dead pretty quick.   
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

Bibbyman

Sparks helped me size the cable for the load and run.  As you're mill is a standard HD with only one pump, you won't need as heavy a cable - I wouldn't think.    ::)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

pnyberg

Quote from: sparks on April 20, 2010, 03:14:41 PM
Bibby's trick is the way to go because you are connected to the mill battery. If you put a battery in the hydraulic box you will have nothing keeping it charged up so it will go dead pretty quick.   

With the 'battery in the box' route, I would leave the contact strip in place.  I was assuming the second battery would be charging whenever the head connects to the strip with the engine running.  If it doesn't work this way then this approach is a non-starter.

I'll study up on the Bibby Mod some more, but I'm finding it a bit intimidating. 

Thanks,
    Peter
No longer milling

pnyberg

Quote from: Bibbyman on April 20, 2010, 04:09:46 PM
Sparks helped me size the cable for the load and run.  As you're mill is a standard HD with only one pump, you won't need as heavy a cable - I wouldn't think.    ::)

That thought occurred to me, but then I noticed that you said you ran two cables.  Was that one for each pump?
No longer milling

Bibbyman

The two battery deal opens up a lot of questions.   Will it charge when the sawhead is making contact with the contact strip?  Would the alternator be able to keep two batteries charged?

The major motivation with the cable conversion is that it removes the contact strip entirely - thus no more maintenance of the strip or replacing the contact. When we were running the two DC pump motors with this conversion, the reliability was excellent.  No more hunting for a spot where the head made good contact. The other benefit was that the hydraulics worked anywhere.

I ran two wires because that's what it took to carry the amp pull of the two DC pumps.  I later ran one wire to the ground and also left the ground contact in place.  I've had no problems with this setup.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Slabs

Another caveat of running a second battery on the "frame" instead of on the mill head is that when the engine is cobbed up and run down the bed with the power strip and contactor providing charging current for the "frame" battery, when theg contactor slips off the end of the power strip there will be a considerable arc from the high charging current and will erode both contactor and strip.  Could effect early destruction for both.

Moreover, the hydraulics should never be used while the mill head is moving (possibly by the offloader) because there will be arcing along the strip as the contactor moves along it.  Again, unnecessary eroding of strip and contactor.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

Magicman

I found that as I gained experience with the mill, my "need" to move hydraulic stuff after the mill left the strip diminished.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dave Shepard

The LT70 has a strip at both ends, and being 5 or 6 feet long, pretty much covers any area you want to be running the hydraulics. My beef is that I want to unclamp with the head at the far end of the mill, so I might put that strip on our Super. Slabs pretty much explained the downside of running a battery in the box. It will be like hitting a hydraulic lever while the head is still returning, it will chew up your strip. I think running cables in the cat track like Bibby did is a safe way to do it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bibbyman

Where it comes in real handy is with a Super or LT70 with dragback where you can unclamp the last board or cant and then drag the whole thing back off the mill onto a table of conveyor.  Also, as we offbear from the hitch end, it's nice to be able to unclamp the last board and remove it from the mill with the head out of the way.

Mary has got to where she does most of her log and cant turning with the head at the far end of the mill because she can see what she's doing a lot better with the head out of the way. Some people install a second strip at the far end of the mill just to be able to do this.  I think a second strip at the far end of the mill is an option now.

I use it about every third log just to lower the back supports a smidge more or lower the turning arm I forgot to do until I've sawn almost up to it.   ::)

P.S.  I just remembered...   I also tend to unclamp and start to turn a log as soon as the blade exits the log on the far end.   By the time the head is returned,  I'm ready to turn the log or cant.  Don't try this at home!

P.S.S..

If you've got a newer LT40HD with the bigger HD box, then I think you can get the parts to "SUPER SIZE" the hydraulics by adding another pump, heavier battery and larger alternator.  This would bring your HD speed up to the same as what's on the Super.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

John S

Peter,
I don't get it.  Isn't your mill pretty much brand new?  I have the LT-15 (for sale) and considering the LT-28 but recently wondering if I should just splurge for a mill like yours (LT-40HDg28) at my age (63).  It seems that something in the operation of the hydraulics has got you aggravated and your mill is certainly still under warrantee.  Since I have never operated an hydraulic mill, I don't quite follow the discussion of "contact strips".
John
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

pnyberg

John,

On a hydraulic WM mill, the hydraulics are powered by a electric pump that's in a steel box attached to the frame at the front end of the mill.  The electricity that powers the pump comes from the battery/alternator that are part of the head assembly.  The pump is stationary, but the head moves along the rail, so there's a design problem of how to get the electricity from the head to the pump.

Wood-Mizer's solution was to attach a 6' long copper contact strip to the rail at the front of the mill, and put a corresponding contact 'button' on the head.  When the  button connects with the strip, and a hydraulic lever is moved, a circuit is complete, and electricity will flow to the pump.  But the button and the strip can only be in contact if the head is within 6' of the front of the mill.

This isn't a warranty issue.  The mill is working as designed.  I'm just considering 'improving' the design  :)

--Peter
No longer milling

sparks

The issues with having the battery charged when it hits the strip it that it creat an exccessive pull on the alternator which could damage it. The other issue is you are not on the strip long enough to do anything. Running the cable like Bibby did is the best way.     Just make sure you come off the solenoid in the fuse block to keep the safety of the hydraulics not working while sawing.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

pnyberg

OK, I'm convinced that running power cables through the track is a better solution than installing a second battery.  I'm searching for a source for 1/0 welding cable.  There may be questions down the road.

Thanks,
    Peter
No longer milling

Bibbyman

Quote from: pnyberg on April 21, 2010, 07:22:10 PM
OK, I'm convinced that running power cables through the track is a better solution than installing a second battery.  I'm searching for a source for 1/0 welding cable.  There may be questions down the road.

Thanks,
    Peter

Major electrical supply places carry it but may have to order it.  When we bought cable for our project, there was quite a difference in price.  You may plan ahead and take something like a cloths line wire/rope (something that won't stretch) and run through the cable track and back to get a good mesurement.  At the price of the cable, you don't want to get WAY too much and you don't want to be just a little short.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

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