iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Tractor logging Accident

Started by JDeere, April 20, 2010, 06:35:29 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 25, 2010, 04:25:39 AM
I'm guessing it's mostly on the easy ground though. That harvest block in the picture is flat as field. I've seen similar setups on woodlots and they aren't putting up much wood.

I've read about and seen guys in Europe logging some steep and rugged terrain with a tractor. They use a winch to get the trees to a haul rode and then either skid or forward them to a landing. I know of one guy locally who works with a properly setup tractor and he does very respectable for himself on just about any terrain.

Its not about how much wood you haul IMO, its about making the most $$$ per unit of tree. So if a tractor is relatively inexpensive and can net you a decent volume then your making money.

SwampDonkey

I suppose if you want to high grade. Talking about stand quality on most woodlots in this area, there aren't many pumpkins left behind if you want to cherry pick for $$.  Winching any length of distance on a tractor ain't nothing compared to a skidder. I'll let ya try a block I got in mind. I've seen skidders run up some steep ground and no tractor will go in them places. I'm very skeptical of their ability to do so. ;) :D With a highway or stream at the bottom, no way out but up over. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jamie_C

There used to be quite a few fellas using forestry type tractors around here in the 90's ... most of them quickly realised that in most of our province they were woefully under gunned for anything that remotely resembled production. The vast majority of the units sold in this province were barely capable of producing 1 - 1.5 cds per hour when equipped with harvesting heads. Trying to forward wood with them provided similar challenges ... soft ground, trailer constantly flipping over, etc, etc, etc

Many people either went bankrupt or very quickly upgraded to purpose built harvesters & forwarders.

Tractors are only good on the very best ground and in optimal harvesting wood ... they may be okay for the occasional weekend warrior but are totally inadequate for true production forestry .... it all comes down to buying the right purpose built tool for the job.

SwampDonkey

I looked at one myself actually. But no matter how you spun the numbers, the wood price wasn't there, price of equipment was too prohibitive, quality wood was limited and you were competing with high production machines that gave the landowner his money in the short term which most desired. Also,there was no way to afford an up front payment for the stumpage on a small operation that took a lot longer to get your return and a lot harder to get it in bad weather. A tractor is no good when everything slicks up and you don't have the articulation to maneuver. At the time everyone that had them were going to the woods with Kubotas and Fords that were way under sized for power and clearance. Most only had roll bars and skid pans, pretty much open to the sky otherwise.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

bill m

One of the things that bothers my about this thread and the other one about a tractor logging fatality is the title. Neither one of these accidents was caused by the tractor and there is no proof that using a skidder would have prevented either one.
SwampDonkey, how can you say the cost of the equipment is too prohibitive?


My setup cost less than $60 thousand brand new and costs about $30 a week for fuel. At that price I could buy 3 tractors and trailers for less than the cost of one new forwarder and still save money on fuel. As for high grading jobs I do not do that. I do not bid on jobs or buy stumpage.The forester I work thru will show me a job and ask what I want per M to cut it, he brokers the logs. If he does not think the land owner can make a fair return for his logs with this arrangement  he will put it out to bid for other loggers. I know there are some places I will not go with my tractor and I will not do those jobs. As for making a living , well I work 7 days a week from Christmas till sugaring season than take most of the summers off just do a small job here and there if I get to bored.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

SwampDonkey

Based on local stand conditions and equipment pricing. The run of wood you get into around here is at least 70 % pulpwood. It would be a lot more than $60,000 for equipment here. You can add about 40-60 % onto the price of any equipment your buying in Mass and double the fuel $. Plus I've run farm tractors and you might run on a tank for 2 days, of course there is a lot of idle time in the woods, so maybe 3 days.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Sawyerfortyish

Bill m from the looks of equipment you have you would do good on some locations. But where I am you would be handicapped with your setup as the terrain would stop you in your tracks. I used to log with a tractor until the day a dead tree landed on me accross the tractor seat. It came from behind and I never seen it comming. It was caused buy the log catching a dead tree along the skid trail. Today I only use skidders. But I remember the days steering the tractor with the brakes because the front wheels never hit the ground on the way out to the landing. If you get that tractor with that trailor you have loaded on a hill it will push you and you will not be able to controll it at all. I know this because I bale hay with a 100hp 4 wheel drive tractor and the kicker wagon and baler will push the tractor around on the hills. I can tell you this I can pull 3 times more with my skidder safely and much quicker than with a tractor of the same horse power. As for the cost of equipment my first skidder(I have2)cost 10 grand 20 yrs ago and is still working hard and safe. If I had continued with that tractor I would have hurt myself.

bill m

Quote from: Sawyerfortyish on April 26, 2010, 07:18:07 AM
Bill m from the looks of equipment you have you would do good on some locations. But where I am you would be handicapped with your setup as the terrain would stop you in your tracks. I used to log with a tractor until the day a dead tree landed on me accross the tractor seat. It came from behind and I never seen it comming. It was caused buy the log catching a dead tree along the skid trail. Today I only use skidders. But I remember the days steering the tractor with the brakes because the front wheels never hit the ground on the way out to the landing. If you get that tractor with that trailor you have loaded on a hill it will push you and you will not be able to controll it at all. I know this because I bale hay with a 100hp 4 wheel drive tractor and the kicker wagon and baler will push the tractor around on the hills. I can tell you this I can pull 3 times more with my skidder safely and much quicker than with a tractor of the same horse power. As for the cost of equipment my first skidder(I have2)cost 10 grand 20 yrs ago and is still working hard and safe. If I had continued with that tractor I would have hurt myself.
I agree, there are some places a tractor should not go. As for having the front wheels off of the ground well thats just not safe. My trailer also has four wheel drive so I do not get pushed down the hills. That skidder you bought for 10 grand was it brand new with a two year warranty? Your tractor you were using must not have had a FOPS on it.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 26, 2010, 04:02:16 AM
I've run farm tractors and you might run on a tank for 2 days, of course there is a lot of idle time in the woods, so maybe 3 days.
I fill my fuel tank about every 5 or 6 days - 10.5 gallons. at $3.00 per gal.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

SwampDonkey

I'm glad your getting good mileage, but talk to any logger in these parts and the fuel bill is out-landish. Farmers will tell ya the same.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

bill m

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 26, 2010, 10:12:27 AM
I'm glad your getting good mileage, but talk to any logger in these parts and the fuel bill is out-landish. Farmers will tell ya the same.
That's why I don't run a skidder any more. 3 years ago diesel was over $5 per gal. It has come down to just over $3 now but it wont stay there forever.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Jamie_C

bill m,

Glad your set-up works for you but up here we are in a totally different world when it comes to wood quality and type of terrain. We are in what is considered a pretty decent block right now and it is running 25 cds / acre total stand volume. Most harvest blocks have an average dbh in the 6"-12" range, run about 18-20 cd per acre and you are either climbing over rocks or dealing with soft ground or steep hills.

Most of us up here in the Eastern part of the Great White North would give our first born and our left leg to have wood to cut like you guys seem to have.

For your fuel consumption ... what does it work out to for gallons/hour of machine time as that is the true measure of fuel economy. The Timberjack 610 we run consumes about 3 gallons per hour depending on terrain and the Tigercat 845 harvester is burning about 6 gallons per hour.

treefarmer87

that JD @ the top of the page is awsome looking
1994 Ford L9000
2004 Tigercat 718
1998 Barko 225
1999 John Deere 748G
FEC 1550 slasher
CTR 314 Delimber
Sthil 461
Sthil 250

stonebroke

Quote from: Jamie_C on April 26, 2010, 05:21:04 PM
bill m,

Glad your set-up works for you but up here we are in a totally different world when it comes to wood quality and type of terrain. We are in what is considered a pretty decent block right now and it is running 25 cds / acre total stand volume. Most harvest blocks have an average dbh in the 6"-12" range, run about 18-20 cd per acre and you are either climbing over rocks or dealing with soft ground or steep hills.

Most of us up here in the Eastern part of the Great White North would give our first born and our left leg to have wood to cut like you guys seem to have.




Do any of you guys just thin and try to grow some bigger trees or is it just a lost cause.

Stonebroke

Jamie_C

Quote from: stonebroke on April 27, 2010, 07:50:58 PM
Quote from: Jamie_C on April 26, 2010, 05:21:04 PM
bill m,

Glad your set-up works for you but up here we are in a totally different world when it comes to wood quality and type of terrain. We are in what is considered a pretty decent block right now and it is running 25 cds / acre total stand volume. Most harvest blocks have an average dbh in the 6"-12" range, run about 18-20 cd per acre and you are either climbing over rocks or dealing with soft ground or steep hills.

Most of us up here in the Eastern part of the Great White North would give our first born and our left leg to have wood to cut like you guys seem to have.




Do any of you guys just thin and try to grow some bigger trees or is it just a lost cause.

Stonebroke

Here in Nova Scotia there is very little commercial thinning done any more. There used to be some done when there was a decent silviculture program but most of that went by the wayside a few years ago. We do some hardwood commercial thinnings but the rates that are being paid for doing them are near bankruptcy rates. The majority of the land we work on wouldn't survive a commercial thinning .... thin soils, poorly drained soils, short lived species (balsam fir, poplar, red maple, white spruce) plus the majority of the industrial landowners here have no interest in it.

bill m

Quote from: Jamie_C on April 26, 2010, 05:21:04 PM
bill m,
Most of us up here in the Eastern part of the Great White North would give our first born and our left leg to have wood to cut like you guys seem to have.

For your fuel consumption ... what does it work out to for gallons/hour of machine time as that is the true measure of fuel economy. The Timberjack 610 we run consumes about 3 gallons per hour depending on terrain and the Tigercat 845 harvester is burning about 6 gallons per hour.

Yes, we do have good wood to cut around here. It would be to hard to make a living just cutting pulp. We are just not close enough to a pulp yard to make a good profit, the trucking kills us.
As for fuel economy the true measure is gallons consumed per volume of wood produced not machine time. As everyone who works in the woods knows some days everything goes perfect and some days nothing goes right ( cable or chokers break, trees get hung up,  equipment gets stuck, pre bunching trees to make a full hitch etc. etc.). On the job I have been working the past 2 winters my fuel consumption works out to about 10.5 gallons per 20m feet of logs plus 8 cord of firewood and 8 cord of pulp.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Jamie_C

Quote from: bill m on April 27, 2010, 09:13:24 PM
Quote from: Jamie_C on April 26, 2010, 05:21:04 PM
bill m,
Most of us up here in the Eastern part of the Great White North would give our first born and our left leg to have wood to cut like you guys seem to have.

For your fuel consumption ... what does it work out to for gallons/hour of machine time as that is the true measure of fuel economy. The Timberjack 610 we run consumes about 3 gallons per hour depending on terrain and the Tigercat 845 harvester is burning about 6 gallons per hour.

Yes, we do have good wood to cut around here. It would be to hard to make a living just cutting pulp. We are just not close enough to a pulp yard to make a good profit, the trucking kills us.
As for fuel economy the true measure is gallons consumed per volume of wood produced not machine time. As everyone who works in the woods knows some days everything goes perfect and some days nothing goes right ( cable or chokers break, trees get hung up,  equipment gets stuck, pre bunching trees to make a full hitch etc. etc.). On the job I have been working the past 2 winters my fuel consumption works out to about 10.5 gallons per 20m feet of logs plus 8 cord of firewood and 8 cord of pulp.

Fuel consumed per volume of wood produced is highly variable depending on the wood quality ... fuel consumed per hour of machine time in my 15+ years of running gear varies very little.

In our neck of the woods most costs are calculated on a per machine hour basis, it's probably done that way here because of our extreme variations of wood quality / volume on harvest blocks. Most large companies up here will tell you right to the penny what the machines cost per hour to run, Irving could probably tell you right down to $0.000000001 per hour what their contractors expenses are.

bill m

Quote from: Jamie_C link=topic=43511.msg629985#msg629985 date=127241
/quote]

Fuel consumed per volume of wood produced is highly variable depending on the wood quality ... fuel consumed per hour of machine time in my 15+ years of running gear varies very little.

In our neck of the woods most costs are calculated on a per machine hour basis, it's probably done that way here because of our extreme variations of wood quality / volume on harvest blocks. Most large companies up here will tell you right to the penny what the machines cost per hour to run, Irving could probably tell you right down to $0.000000001 per hour what their contractors expenses are.

Your right about fuel consumption per machine hours not varying but you are assuming those machines are producing 100% for every hour of run time. On paper it sounds good but in real life everyone knows that doesn't happen.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Jamie_C

Most newer equipment will break down your running time, productive time, and will have many categories for "down time" .... repairs/maintenance, lunch break, interruption, etc, etc that makes it really easy to asses your costs per total machine hour vs productive hour vs man hours or any other thing you can think of.

It's amazing what the machines will track for you now.

SwampDonkey

In central New Brunswick we have the ground to do the work on, but the economics isn't there. The land owner would get nothing and the logger (tractor logging) would slowly go broke because our woods have been high graded so bad and we are in fringe hardwood , the money has always been in softwood. The amount of sawlogs and veneer running through the marketing boards wouldn't be 5% of sales. Most have to clearcut to make the payments and as I said the tractor guys can't make of go of it at all. Dad had a large farm with lots of tractors and on good flat land and plenty of dry ground, he got a skidder after selling the horse about 40 years. And he wasn't logging for a living, but figured if he was going to make a little bit of money he needed a skidder. And dad was one of a few landowners that never high graded and clearcut. He saved all the hardwood log trees for down the road. Nearing retirement he then sold 400 acres of stumpage to cash in, he knew the next guy would just cut it anyway so might as well be in his pockets for all the efforts he put into his woods. The mentality you got to remember is clearcutting in this neck of the globe, the government has pushed that for years. If you have popple and fir stands, and it is matured, you better cut it before the worms move in. It will literally crash in short order once it begins. I've seen perfect looking fir, 12-18" stuff, go down hill in 3 years , full of wood pecker holes in the buts. If there is white birch in there it will all die from scald. I had a set of aerial photos where I worked that was a snapshot of a stand of fir-white birch about 15 years apart. The older photo showed the stand as dark strip up over a hillside. The new photo showed it as a light green strip of shrubs and young growth. It had all fell down and the birch died to. A woodlot owner had bought the land from government because he owned the frontage and was cleaning up some stray yellow birch that had not died. He planted about 16 acres back to red spruce, a long lived species that grows well in those hillsides and those things were planted in shaley soil, grew like they were sitting in fertilizer. Planted a small amount of white spruce at the same time and they went all yellow. Well what had happened, to my recollection, was I had put Miracle Grow on the red spruce under the sprinkler system and did they ever benefit out in the woods in that shale. Red spruce was a good call for up there because out side of the planting site the understory had red spruce growing up through hobble bush and striped maple.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thank You Sponsors!