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Custom Sawyers

Started by etkoehn, April 15, 2010, 10:46:30 AM

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etkoehn

Questions to all you custom Sawyers.
  On average how many board feet do you saw a month?
  How many board feet can you saw in a good day?
  What brand and model of mill do you use?
  How much do you charge?
  Is it just you or do you have a helper?
Farm Boy

Jeff

What you are going to find out is that there is no standard answer that you can go away with to emulate. Each question on its own has a multitude of answers, but then, when you group them all together, you will get such a large variety of answers that the odds of even two of them being the same as a whole are greater then picking a winning lottery number.

Remember that the search button above is your friend.  Al of these questions have been covered in depth over the years and every bit of that information is still at your fingertips. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Quote from: etkoehn on April 15, 2010, 10:46:30 AM
Questions to all you custom Sawyers.
  On average how many board feet do you saw a month?
  How many board feet can you saw in a good day?
  What brand and model of mill do you use?
  How much do you charge?
  Is it just you or do you have a helper?

I aimed for an average day of 1300 board feet. My monthly total depended upon the number of logs with which I was presented.  Some customers had one and some customers had 100.

I could saw 1300 with an effort that didn't wear out my help.  With good setups and good logs, cutting one inch material of 4 to 8 inch width, that same effort could get me to 2000 board feet.  I've had many 2000 to 2400 board foot days and have cut as much as 6,000.   I don't want to do that often.

I started with a Woodmizer LT40HD and my last Mills were Baker 3638's.

My last price increase was to 20¢ a board foot with a $20 setup fee, inside of my 60 mile radius of operation.

My operation was just me, my mill and my truck.  The customer was responsible for felling, bucking,  ramping, off-bearing, lumber stacking, slab disposal and clean-up.

While some operations are close in configuration, you will find that none are alike.  It all depends on the sawyer, his goals and his market.

DanG

ET, there's a pretty good example that illustrates what Jeff is saying, right here on the first page of this board.  In the thread entitled, "How do you make a living?" there are currently 17 responses with about 10 wildly differing answers to one of your questions.

However, this is a discussion forum, so we'll discuss it. ;)  I had a limited amount of custom sawing work in my brief period of business, four or five years worth of part timing.  My operation is stationary, so folks would bring the logs to me, but I would do all of the work myself.  I had the advantage of no travel time or expense, plus I was set up for efficiency and had everything I needed right here, so I charged the same as the portable guys around here.  Started out at 20ยข, and eventually increased to a quarter with no objections.  I also cut special orders from my own logs and cut for inventory so I had lumber to sell.  I sold good average pine for twice my custom sawing price(mostly from free logs) a little more for nice pine and a bit less for the crappy stuff.  I got quite a bit more for hardwoods, though my custom sawing rate for them was the same.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Magicman

Since I am a (part time) Custom Sawyer, I'll throw in a few answers.  I never try to saw over 2 maybe 3 days during a week.

Daily bf depends upon the logs and what the customer wants.  Sawing 1" generally runs 1500 to 1800 bf daily.  2" framing lumber will run 2000 to 2400 bf.  I have sawed over 3000 bf in a day.

My mill is listed in my Signature.

Saw prices advertised in Mississippi run from $160 to $300 per thousand.  My prices fall in the midpoint.  I saw for a set price, no matter if it's for 1" or 2".  I don't negotiate my saw price.  Cedar is sawed by the hourly rate.

The customer furnishes and pays for the helper.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

etkoehn

Magicman why do you saw Cedar by the hour instaed of BF
Farm Boy

ljmathias

etkoehn: MM probably likes the aroma so much (I know I do) that he just takes his time sawing cedar- better to get paid by the hour when you're just loafing along enjoying life... which is what sawing is all about for me at least.

Sawed up some poplar yesterday that just turned out beautiful- logs had been on the ground for a couple months while I finished up a house I was building so I was worried about rot and bugs but turned out fine. Summer hasn't hit hard yet with all the assorted 'benefits' it brings like mosquitoes, beetles and log-eating molds of various kinds.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Magicman

Quote from: etkoehn on April 17, 2010, 12:05:58 AM
Magicman why do you saw Cedar by the hour instaed of BF  

Note that I am sawing Eastern Red Cedar.  Not the same as your cedar.  Every Sawyer has to establish his own rules to match his own sawing conditions, logs, and customers.  There is not a "one size fits all" in this business.

Customers generally want cedar as wide as the log will allow, and many times different thicknesses.  These odd dimensions make scaling the lumber very difficult.

Also, and just as important, is the quality of our ERC logs.  Many contain rot that may be just on the end or completely throughout.  Very often, these conditions  are not seen until the log is opened/sawed.  You can turn the cant and "box the rot", but that's time spent.  You easily can spend time sawing it and the customer gets nothing.   It's hard to scale rotten lumber.

Sawing by the hour, the customer gets what you sawed from his logs.  It completely eliminates any possibility of you not getting paid for your time sawing.  It also eliminates the customer feeling that he paid for something that he didn't get.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

sgschwend

East cost prices are lower than West coast prices.  

A good example:  small beams or posts (8X8 size) go for $1/bf here.  That puts the cut charge in the $.50/bf range.

Other products might be a bit lower but not that much.

I think the cost of living has a lot to do with the difference, so the prices here may vary too.
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Magicman

Yup, there is no "one size fits all" answer to sawing and pricing.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

etkoehn

Thanks for the comments. I'm learning that there is no one size fits all but i'm hoping that with all the info i get i can make a size that fits me.
I do however have another question. How hard is it to saw 2x4, 2x6 ect.. on a bandsaw? To me it seems like it would take skill and a lot of practice to get the most from a log
Farm Boy

Chuck White

Up here in the N.E., board footage rates for custom sawing range from 15ยข to 17.5ยข per bf

Any more than that, and the customer may as well go to an Amish sawmill and buy their lumber.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Tom

QuoteHow hard is it to saw 2x4, 2x6 ect.. on a bandsaw? To me it seems like it would take skill and a lot of practice to get the most from a log

It does......  on any saw.   Operating the saw is just a small part of sawing.  Reading the log and handling/drying the lumber  is more difficult.  Like driving a car, the mechanical things on a sawmill all work the same way each time.  Every log is different, the same as every road is different. 

Your expertise as a sawyer will be judged on your consistancy (stick to the job), knowledge of your equipment, customer relations and uppermost, your knowledge of wood.  Be prepared to spend many waking moments reading and learning, as well as many sleeping moments dreaming.  Yes, you will saw in your sleep and dream of how you could have cut specific logs differently the day before.

Being a Sawyer isn't all about sharp teeth and horsepower.

Magicman

Quote from: etkoehn on April 17, 2010, 03:40:44 PM
How hard is it to saw 2x4, 2x6 ect.. on a bandsaw? 

Tom's answer was "straight up. smiley_thumbsup   It's more than overcoming difficulties and gaining skill.  It takes practice.  It takes knowing where your blade is going to be on the last cut before you make the first cut.  In other words, know where you are going before you leave home.  Your target is always that bottom board.

I'll post a couple of pictures of a cant being sawed into dimension 2X4's.



Excuse the camera angle.  Here you see that the 1st, (bottom) 2nd (left) and 3rd (top) faces have been opened.  The cant is then split into three equal pieces.  When the top board was removed, it left a cant exactly the right thickness to be evenly split.



Again, excuse the camera angle.  Notice that the 3 slices are now vertical as the 4th face is opened.  2X4's are now being sawed.

Notice the small amount of wasted log.  The second cut on each face produced a board that made 2X4's.

I hope that this helped you to visualize what took place when I set this log up to saw 2X4's.  The exact same process takes place, no matter what dimension lumber you are sawing.  Other sawyers may do it different.  I'm just offering my way.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

etkoehn

Thanks Tom for the advise. Do you know of any good books to read for a wannabe sawyer?
Thanks for the pictures Magicman visual aids are always helpful to me.

What log scale do you guys use for scaling logs?
Farm Boy

Tom

Not too many good sawing books.  Member "Been there" posted a sawing book one time and it's in the forum somewhere.  Perhaps He'll remember.  I always go to the Wood Handbook.  It's link is in the Knowledge base.  Government publications are good.  Go to the library.  Visit other mills.  Talk to cabinet makers, wood workers of all kinds and discover what they want.  Look at my website. Look at Bibbyman's website.  Read the forum, read the forum, read the forum......   Arkansawyer started a commercial mill and you will learn of the finances and problems he ran into. Others are modifying or building mills.  Study books on tree identification.  Go into the woods and do it.  Read about the uses of each wood. 

One set of books you might find in a library is Utilization of the Southern Pines (Peter Koch). It is an expensive two volume set but full of information on trees and sawing equipment. (How a saw tooth works)

There are even posts on the forum where others have asked for books and magazines.  This forum is probably the best place to find general Forestry and sawmill knowledge.  Use it all up before you worry too  much about looking elsewhere.   Check out the used book stores and publisher clearing warehouses where they sell overstocks, etc.  Not too many of those anymore, but there are some.

ljmathias

Magic: nice posting- still true that a picture is worth a thousand words...

One question: what did you do with the first and second slabs cut?  I can see a board from the first just like for the third but it seems the second slab was cut pretty heavy to get squared up- did you lose the 2X4 that is in the middle like you got from the last face when you turned and starting cutting 2X4s?

About to start cutting framing for my oldest son's house now that number two's is done (well, almost done- still got to caulk and finish the porch ceiling...) and we'll be doing both 2X4 and 2X6 for the walls plus floor and ceiling joists.  How wide do you normally cut ground floor joists on a raised foundation?  First house I built with a  raised and crawl space we over-built using 2X10's and the floor is rock solid.  I'm trying to find the best compromise between support post and beam spacings and joist thickness.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Magicman

Quote from: ljmathias on April 18, 2010, 07:01:47 AM
One question: what did you do with the first and second slabs cut?  I can see a board from the first just like for the third but it seems the second slab was cut pretty heavy to get squared up-  Lj 

Lj,  actually each face yielded three 2X4's.  If I'm figuring correctly, that was a 17" log that yielded 28 2X4's. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

zopi

Quote from: Tom on April 17, 2010, 04:13:49 PM
QuoteHow hard is it to saw 2x4, 2x6 ect.. on a bandsaw? To me it seems like it would take skill and a lot of practice to get the most from a log


Being a Sawyer isn't all about sharp teeth and horsepower.

No but being my wife is....:D

It does take awhile to learn the art of sawing...the science can come pretty quick...but consistently reading a log takes alot of practice...even the best ones get caught up with a nasty one every so often...
Got Wood?
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DanG

Quote from: Tom on April 17, 2010, 04:13:49 PM
  Yes, you will saw in your sleep

I can verify this.  I have actually heard Tom sawing in his sleep.  In fact, almost every time I've been in the presence of any slumbering sawyer, they were doing it.  Apparently, dream saws are noisier than real saws though.  Mine even wakes me up sometimes. ::) :D

As a side note here, hard work like that seldom goes unrewarded.  My wife was so impressed with my dedication to sawing that she gave me my own bedroom. 8) 8) 8)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Cedarman

To figure out what you can get from a straight log, (sawing crooked logs is at another level of expertise) you need to become very familiar with the Pythagorean formula.  A calculator with square roots is almost a necessary tool.  Knowing the diameter of the log , it will tell you what size rectangles or what size square you can get from the log. For example a 17 " log wil square to a 12" x 12" square.  Play on paper before sawing the log.  Use different diameters and see what rectangles will fit inside the circle.  Geometry is fun.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Dave Shepard

Keep a framing square around the mill. Move it around on the end of the log until the corner is on the edge of the log and look at where the edge lands on the tongue and blade. That will show you what shape you can get for a square, like an 8"x8", or a rectangle, like a 6"x8".
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Tom

One of the handiest things to do is measure the length of a finger, distance between knuckles (looking for an inch), your palm width, handspan and your boot length.  As you progress, you will be dependent on these guestimate measurements  rather than getting out a tape measure all of the time.  You will also find that your "eye" will develop and you will be able to just look at the log on your sawmill bed, put the blade up against it and know.

You may still need a commercial measuring device for detail work, but knowing lengths of body parts lets you think about a log before it ever hits the mill.  You see, logs aren't always round. :D

Hilltop366

I don't know about that Tom , I've heard that guys arn't very good at using body parts for estimating length...it seems that they are always over estimating. :D

Tom

That's why the finger works pretty good.  ;D

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