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Producing survey/construction stakes

Started by bunst, April 13, 2010, 06:59:32 AM

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bunst

I'm a Land Surveyor and there are limited sources to buy stakes locally. Ive heard from colleagues and contractors their frustration at finding good stakes at a decent price. I'm thinking that it could be good income if I could produce and market them. What I'm talking about are the 4' 1"x1" grade stakes usually made from maple or oak. It would be no problem to produce the 1"x1" strips, but it is pointing them that has me stumped. Ideally they would be pointed like a pencil. I found a stake pointer for sale online, but it is very pricey. Any ideas how to home build one?

Papa1stuff

Can't help you ,but been wondering the same thing ;D
1987 PB Grader with forks added to bucket
2--2008 455 Rancher Husky
WM CBN Sharpener & Setter

ladylake

Lee Valley has one for $70, it is used on a electric drill. If I was doing a lot I'd mount it in a drill press, maybe mount the drill press horizontal. If it goes good then get a commerical one.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

stonebroke

Hudson sells one. might be too pricy for your it is designed to be used commeciallly.

Stonebroke

bunst

Yes, the pointer from Hudson is the one I was refering to which is expensive. Ladylake, I couldn't find it on the Lee Valley website; discontinued?

Larry

The heads are all similar and that is what does the work.  I used to have maybe a 100 year old hand powered pointer for tobacco sticks...I was lazy and put one of those fancy lectric motors on it.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Bibbyman

I think you'll find making survey stakes very time consuming unless you invest in some high volume equipment.  If you like repetitive work, you'll be ok.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Popeye1

http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=65253&cat=2,2180,41007

Check this one out. $59

I have used tenon cutters that are similar to this, they work great. Although if you are going for high production you might want to mount it in a drill press and it would still be slow.  Just don't let it start spinning the stake if you have the cutter in a drill press.
Good luck, and have fun turning angles.

Brad_S.

I echo what Bibby said.

Additionally, it takes high grade logs and/or lumber to make stakes. You can't have any knots in them and if you just turn a whole log into noodles and weed out the ones with knots, you end up throwing away a huge amount of wood.

You have to pump out volume to make money. A $60 tenon cutter is not going to last you a week. If all you want to make are your own, then maybe it would work. Even the Hudson unit is a bit light for production work. You get what you pay for. The good(?) news is that so many give up on stakes that there is usually used equipment to be had. Try Sawmill Exchange or CMS.

There is a reason you can't find stakes at what you feel is a fair price. If it were easy, someone would be doing it.

Been there, done that.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

bunst

Well said Brad. Probably more trouble than it's worth.

Dave Shepard

Don't bother with that drill powered contraption, not enough power. We've got a Hud-Son with a 1hp electric, which is marginal. In my opinion, the engineers at Hud-son (I hope you're reading this!!!!) spent too much time think and too little time testing when they built their stake pointer. It's got these foolish adjustable legs that won't stay adjusted, an adjustable sliding carriage that won't work when the legs go wonky, and is a very expensive piece of equipment for what it is. Here's how I'd fix it. I'd mount that motor with the sharpener on a bench, and make an assortment of square tubes that would bolt in front of the sharpener. Each tube would be centered on the pointer, and would be just a touch larger than your stakes. The squareness of it would keep the stake from rotating in your hand. Just stuff the stake through the hole and point it. You get a feel for when you've got a point, and it would be five times faster than using the foolish carriage. If somebody wants a sketch of what I'm talking about, I'll gladly post one up here.

Brad is absolutely right about the quality of the logs needed to make stakes. I've kept track of what goes into making stakes. Even with good quality logs, we use ash, you will have a percentage of rejects due to wane and knots. I use a DeWalt 12" chop saw for cutting to length, and the Wood-Mizer for cutting boards, which I then stand up and rip into strips. I can profitably make stakes with this arrangement. A jump saw would save a lot of time, as would a gang rip.

So, to answer your question, to build one, I'd try to get a pointer, maybe buy just the head and motor from Hud-Son, then build some of those square tubes I mentioned. Probably only need one if you are just making the one size stake. What are bulk stakes bringing in your area? If there is a large enough demand, you might be able to buy them in bulk and market them.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

sigidi

Quote from: Dave Shepard on April 13, 2010, 04:02:48 PM

Don't bother with that drill powered contraption, not enough power. We've got a Hud-Son with a 1hp electric, which is marginal. In my opinion, the engineers at Hud-son (I hope you're reading this!!!!) spent too much time think and too little time........


Dave have you had a chat with the blokes at Hud-son? this kind of feedback is what helps a company get better and make a better product. We had a chap down here whining about the Lucas blade sharpener and he was expecting that Lucas should contact him because he put his moan up on a forum. I asked him on the forum if he'd told Lucas the trouble he was having and his reply was "they read the forums"... he just expected that with having a problem, Lucas would come to him... turned out it wasn't such a big problem... he had a brand new offsider sharpen the blade and just left him with it, didn't watch, give instruction/supervision and then blamed the poor result on the sharpener, expecting Lucas to make it better :o

Anyway back to stakes...

Weisyboy, recently had a stake pointer made I think - hope he has some pics and gets on here for show and tell...

Dave, the idea of keeping the stake still and stopping it turning while getting pointed is quite sensible, I'd be thinking of getting something which would be a bit quicker than trying to feed the stake through square section pipe, after all the margin on these stakes would be very small, so speed of production would have to be maximal.

Personally, I think stakes a great way to convert what would be wasted flitches into a useful product. Here the surveyors tend to use 3' 2x1's a lot to mark out developments. I sold some a couple of years back at $350AU per 500 all with 2 sided points... very slow, labour intensive affair... subsequently I don't do them anymore... but if the mill doesn't run you don't make money and I'd rather make a small margin and still play with my mill than wait for that massive profit job and slowly go broke without knowing it.
Always willing to help - Allan

Engineer

As many of you know, I own a surveying/engineering firm.  We use anywhere from a hundred to a couple thousand survey stakes/grade stakes per year, depending on our workload.   I used to buy them from a mill about thirty miles away, that since went out of business, I should have bought their stake pointer.  Paid $0.30 per stake if I bought at least 500.  Now I can either drive 30 miles in the other direction to get stakes at a mill that doesn't always have them and offers no discount ($20 per bundle of 25) or the local builder's supply which also doesn't always have them and charges $0.99 apiece regardless of quantity.  I have a hard time justifying to my customers that they get charged $1 apiece for grade stakes (and it should be more) and some jobs use a couple hundred (commercial construction layout, for example).  We have actually reclaimed bundles of stakes from jobs, run them through a planer to remove markings, and reused them. 

If I ever get a new mill I will be sawing my own grade stakes.  Most places sell 1x1 stakes, 4' long, I found some once that were 1-1/4 x 1 by 3' long and either maple or birch, they were excellent stakes and easy to write on the wide sides.  It's important that the equipment operators can see your stake and what is written on it.  That is what I would saw.  I also have needed longer stakes in the past, and they are impossible to find.  We have duct-taped two stakes together end-to-edn to get to a certain height before. 

There's also plenty of landscapers and nurseries around that could probably use tree stakes and other wood products. 

I like Dave's idea about the pointer.  I have seen video of those pointers and they look awkward.  One video I saw used a foot pedal to operate an air-powered clamp so you didn't need to hold the stake, just push it into the cutterhead.

Larry

When I was making stakes I sawed the boards than cut to length with a chainsaw...12 boards at a time  Put the boards back on the mill in a jig to slice the sticks.  One slice would usually make 48 to 60 sticks.  Normal order for tobacco sticks would run 500 to 1,000 sticks and that might take an hour, maybe two.  If they wanted them pointed that took longer...I cut the points when I had spare time.

If you can get by with 2 sided points on survey stakes this can also be completed on the mill with a jig...just lay them at an angle to the blade.  Cut on side and flop em over for the second cut.  Than slice off the individual sticks...like maybe 50 at a time.

Went to a furniture factory auction few weeks ago and they sold a shop made pointer.  In the factory they used it to put semi points on stool legs by the thousand.  It was just a 3 hp motor with maybe 5 different interchangeable heads.  It had a carriage with a clamp thingy.  Don't know what it sold for as I wasn't paying attention when it sold.

The Hudson pointer is at the very bottom end for any kind of production...but it doesn't carry the price tag of the fancy machines either.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Dave Shepard

The stakes I make are 1 3/16" square and four feet long. I think a 1x1 is a little light unless you are just pounding them into sand. We use a lot of stakes at work for laying out septic fields, silt fence, etc., so I keep all of the culls for that. Any stakes that I think will break because of a knot. If it breaks when I'm using it, I just grab another. ;) We also sell to the surveyors as well, preferably in lots of 500. I think I saw the pointer you are talking about Engineer, it grabbed the stake and then pivoted into the pointer head?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Larry

I was a thinkin that I could really kick out the stakes iffen I had a gangsaw...and if I want to work...so I bought one today.  Baldor 20 hp and 10 saws.  There is a second small one on the trailer but it is only 10 hp.




Of course I would need a stake pointer so I bought one of those...pneumatic thing with a 5 hp Baldor.  No picture yet as I still haulin arn....like 50,000 pounds.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Ron Wenrich

Keystone Machinery makes a chisel pointer.  Its not a cheap piece of equipment.  It'll cost you $10k.  It does about 30/minute.  But, they do have an interesting concept, and maybe you could buy the heads and build your own. 

Their concept is that you can put a 2 sided point on a piece of wood from 3/4" to 7" wide.  For the wide stuff, you point it first, then cut rip it to the size you want. 

They also make a product that sharpens a stake like a pencil point.  I don't know if that's what you could use.  They have a manual product that costs about $4k and uses 230v. 

http://www.keystonemachinery.com/

Maybe you can find a used one.  A lot depends on the volume you want to put out.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Shepard

Larry, do you think you could put enough postage on that small one and mail it to me? :D I'm slowly building a 12" gang rip. Unfortunately my machinest is rebuilding his lathe, and building a new house and shop. Oh well, I'm not in a rush. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Norm

Uhhh Larry isn't that going to cut into your quality fishing time? Now to help out I'll come down this winter and use the boat so it doesn't get all rusty on you. ;D

WH_Conley

When tobacco sticks were a viable product a few people had something that looked like the Keystone set up, home made. Take used blades from an old disc, turn the dish toward each other bolt on a shaft and cut notches in them. Power them til they rotated toward you. Have a center support to hold the stick. Shove the stick in, pull out, turn 90 degrees, shove in, done. Sharpened on 4 sides. I use the cheapest table saw that I can buy from the box store, point the boards, takes 2 trips through, then rip the board into finished stakes. Hundred dollar table saw will do several thousand stakes.
Bill

WIwoodworker

A friend of mine, locally, makes grade stakes when he's got nothing else to do. He hates it. You figure at .30 a stake you're getting about .90bf for your work. YHou need to be really efficient to make money.
Peterson 9" WPF

red oaks lumber

to make money doing anything, you have to spend money first!
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Larry

Quote from: Norm on April 24, 2010, 08:06:14 AM
Uhhh Larry isn't that going to cut into your quality fishing time?

No way. ;D  A man just has to have his priorities in the right order and work is way down there towards the bottom. :D

Kathy and building this stupid house thing is a little trying...she has a bit different priorities than me.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Jasperfield

One of my best friends is a surveyor, too. He also owns a company that produces stakes and hubs by the millions annually. He sells them all over the Southeast and into the Midwest. He has a mechanical engineering background and has designed and fabricated some of his equipment as well as buying some. His operation is quite efficient, and he has good reliable wholesale sources for high-grade lumber. He doesn't have any debt in the business.

He employs about 4 persons, full time, in the stake business.

And I'm here to tell you: There is no real money to be made manufacturing stakes.

Dave Shepard

I'd be interested to know what stakes are going for in different parts of the country. I've done the numbers on our operation using wholesale numbers, and giving generous numbers to things like mill/property overhead, raw materials, labor etc., I still come up with a pretty decent profit margin.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bandmiller2

What if a fella took say a two hp electric motor attached a 3" spiral horizontal milling cutter on the motor shaft.Take a round piece of pipe angle it slightly to the cutter feed the stake in and twist sort of like a pencil sharpener.A 3600rpm motor would be best.I think holding the stake with a gloved hand and a little care it would be fast and simple to build, a disc with small teeth would work also.Possibly an attachment added to a old jointer to angle the stake into the cutter,just thinking out loud.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

Dave

Like everything else, it depends on markets and production numbers.  Too often you see some production numbers that are inflated by the type of wood sawn and the cutting patterns.  Then they give you a number on the high end.  That can't be expected throughout the mfg spectrum.  Some days you will get close to the high numbers, but most days fall far short.

That taken into consideration, you must also factor in waste.  1 Mbf of lumber won't produce 1 Mbf of product, in most cases. 

Markets have to be good enough to give you a good number of production days.  If you're only working a machine for 10 days a year, then number begin to change.  But, you would have some shared overhead with other equipment.

Frank

I don't think I would want to grab a hold of a stake and put it through a pencil sharpener.  Back when labor was cheap, a lot of mills would point stakes with a radial arm saw.  You just made a jig so that you always cut a certain angle.  You could cut a lot of stakes in a few hours.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Ron,your probibly right about not holding a stake and pointing.I have pointed stakes with an old tablesaw and angle guide it goes quick seems it would be just a little slower than handling each stake with one of those cone cutters.Theirs quite a demand for stakes for gardens,flowers,driveway markers let alone surveyers and contractors.It very well may be worth it for small/part time millers to set up for stakes especially if your not depending on it to feed your family.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

Come to think of it, we had a guy that used to cut stakes for a living.  I'm not sure what type of pointer he had.  He used to buy just 1x4 pallet stock, mainly 10'.  I guess he just ripped them down to whatever width he needed.  Our stock is mainly 1 1/8".  Species didn't really matter.

He retired, then came back into the business.  His health isn't so good, and I haven't seen him this year. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

woody1

I just purchaced 25 bundles today from our wholesaler. The stakes are 3/4 x 1 1/4 oak, 25 pcs./ bdl. I am paying $10.50 a bdl. We retail them at $14.89. Last year we sold around 500 bdls. This guy makes thousands a day and ships them all over.
Woody
If you don't want to row, get out of the boat !

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