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versus (taxed diesel/non-taxed diesel)

Started by furltech, April 13, 2010, 05:13:40 AM

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furltech

I noticed that some of the old guys around here are using furnace oil in there old gear any thoughts? Anything i have ever run we used diesel fuel .but since i started hauling fuel in by the jug instead of having it trucked in.  i noticed that furnace oil is 40 cents a litre cheaper .

chevytaHOE5674

The dyed "furnace" oil I heat my house with is dyed "off road" diesel, same stuff I burn in all my diesel equipment. The fuel man brings it to the house in large quantities so it is usually a little cheaper than at the pump. But sometimes its actually cheaper at the pump than delivered to the house.

stonebroke

In the USA it is illegal to use it in offroad and onroad vehicles. That said it works just fine in any of the older engines that were built for higher sulfur fuels.

Stonebroke

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: stonebroke on April 13, 2010, 10:07:00 AM
In the USA it is illegal to use it in offroad and onroad vehicles. That said it works just fine in any of the older engines that were built for higher sulfur fuels.

Stonebroke

My fuel delivery service has no issues filling by basement and outdoor tank with the same fuel. And they know full well the outdoor tank is for farm equipment. In fact I think they have directly filled my backhoe on a few occasions. hmm

stonebroke

In NYS they have told the fuel companies it is a ten thousand dollar fine.

Stonebroke

lumberjack48

In MN. dyed fuel is stove fuel or off road fuel, clear fuel or white is road taxed fuel. I had a 300 gal fuel tank on the job, Co-op fuel truck would fill tank and all the equipment out of the truck. [ legal ].  If it don't have a license plate you don't have to pay road tax's on fuel to run it, same with gas, example , why pay road tax to run your chainsaw or saw mill.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

stonebroke

We don't pay road tax on offroad diesel but it is still ulsd.

Stonebroke

Tom

The USDOT and State DOT's  may start coming down hard on every money taking scheme they can imagine, what with the Governments in such bad shape.  It doesn't count that the people might be in bad shape too.

Bobus2003

In all truithfulness.. its cheaper to run green-Fuel (Road Fuel) in all my equipment.. I keep it in the bulk tanks.. then if i need to fuel the truck its ok, no penalies.. I know many companies around me that do this.. Plus the Bulk Fuels Company has a $0.15 discount on Road fuel so it helps

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: Bobus2003 on April 13, 2010, 03:07:53 PM
In all truithfulness.. its cheaper to run green-Fuel (Road Fuel) in all my equipment.

Whats your location? UP here on-road diesel is close to a buck more than off-road dyed fuel presently, and is generally around 50-60 cents more per gallon.

Gary_C

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on April 13, 2010, 03:27:23 PM
UP here on-road diesel is close to a buck more than off-road dyed fuel presently, and is generally around 50-60 cents more per gallon.

Are you sure about that? Most everyplace I go, there is little difference in the price between off road and road fuel.

I too have been buying all highway fuel for everything and then filing for a refund of the road tax on what I use in the off road equipment. Most times I am saving around 30 cents per gallon and I don't have to deal with two fuels. Most all the truck fuel is bought on the road anyway. But you do have to file and wait for your refund from both the state and feds.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

ErikC

 I think .50 cents is probably the average difference here in CA. The difference fluctuates with the price obviously. I use it wherever I can.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

lumberjack48

Will i know that, i was't watching, read it and you will see that,
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

stonebroke

In NYS we pay 60cents in road tax


Stonebroke

Mark K

We ordered 600 gallons last week and it was almost a full dollar cheaper than on-road. Our fuel service told us back in Dec. that off-road and on-road were going to be low-sulfur by years end to meet restrictions. Our off-road and home heating oil are delivered in the same load during the winter because we have it cut with kerosene. One of the locals here got nailed with Red fuel in his pickup, as stonebrook said he had to pay a 10K dollar fine and a fine for every gallon in the truck  :o. That would ruin a good day in a hurry.
Husky 372's-385's,576, 2100
Treefarmer C7D
Franklin 405
Belsaw m-14 sawmill

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: Gary_C on April 13, 2010, 04:19:07 PM
Are you sure about that? Most everyplace I go, there is little difference in the price between off road and road fuel.

Yep just got a couple hundred gallons delivered the other day and the price was like 86 cents cheaper than On-road delivered, and almost a buck cheaper than on-road at the pump.

Bobus2003

The difference in price here isn't enough for me to buy Dyed Fuel.. so i do the same :
Quote from: Gary_C on April 13, 2010, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on April 13, 2010, 03:27:23 PM
UP here on-road diesel is close to a buck more than off-road dyed fuel presently, and is generally around 50-60 cents more per gallon.

Are you sure about that? Most everyplace I go, there is little difference in the price between off road and road fuel.

I too have been buying all highway fuel for everything and then filing for a refund of the road tax on what I use in the off road equipment. Most times I am saving around 30 cents per gallon and I don't have to deal with two fuels. Most all the truck fuel is bought on the road anyway. But you do have to file and wait for your refund from both the state and feds.

timberjackrob

it is not illegal to use off road diesel in the usa,or at least not in ky. here off road fuel is generally 50 to 60 cents agallon cheaper than road fuel.off road fuel is dyed red and we use it in tractors and logging equipment or for heating.if you are using on road or usld fuel in older equipment or equipment designed to burn off road fuel be sure to use a fuel lubricant because the sulpher is a lubricant and much of it has been removed from all fuels both on and off road.most all of the diesel injection pump guys reccomend the use of a lubricant in all fuel.the differance in price between the two fuels will depend on your states taxes.it is illegal to use off road or dyed fuel in on road vehicles.i read an article in diesel power magizine that two stroke oil made a good cheap lubricant for engines designed before 2007 or before ultra low sulpher diesel,some guys around here also use automatic transmission fluid.in the article they used two stroke oil at a 200 to 1 mix and even used  wal mart super tec brand it also got the test vehicle about 2 miles a gallon better mpg the engines im refering to before 2007 are on road engines that use usld as far as i know tractors and other off road eqipment still recomend the use of off road fuel or at least my 2004 massey tractor does thats the newest piece of equipment i have
208 timberjack, woodmizer lt28,case 455 trackloader with gearmatic winch,massey 4710, ford f250s ford f700

Sawyerfortyish

Here there is like a doller differance between off road and on road. Fuel truck fills off road tanks and heating oil tanks at the same time.  The fuel company charges me 4 cents a gallon more for off road than heating oil because thats a commerical tax.

Tom


furltech

I am still here everytime i have tried to post lately it would not work .and the topic was rolling right along with out me .my question did not have to do with the taxes more on the performance of using furnace oil .

stonebroke

It should work just fine in the older diesels( nothing requiring lowsulfur or ultralow sulfur diesel)

Stonebroke

mr T

I run range oil in my 86 plow truck 3208 cat with no problems it does smoke more when starting cold seems to run better

mad murdock

Quote from: mr T on April 16, 2010, 03:23:48 PM
I run range oil in my 86 plow truck 3208 cat with no problems it does smoke more when starting cold seems to run better
by "range oil" if you mean stove oil, then it is the same thing.  If you look up the ASTM standards for diesel, there are alot of fuels that are the same with different names, the differences come in with dyed vs. un-dyed, packaging, etc. etc.
#1 diesel is the same thing as #1 kerosene, or #1 stove oil, or even Aviation Jet A.  It is all the same thing.  The branding takes place at the bulk plant, when they add the dye, or it gets loaded on a truck as stove oil, or on road diesel, or Aviation Jet A, the naming of the end product determines how it is packaged and handled. 
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mr T

No#2 fuel oil here is not low sulphur  On road fuel is  Thats the main difference

stonebroke

Quote from: mad murdock on April 16, 2010, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: mr T on April 16, 2010, 03:23:48 PM

#1 diesel is the same thing as #1 kerosene, or #1 stove oil, or even Aviation Jet A.  It is all the same thing.  The branding takes place at the bulk plant, when they add the dye, or it gets loaded on a truck as stove oil, or on road diesel, or Aviation Jet A, the naming of the end product determines how it is packaged and handled. 


Used to be, no more. Engine fuel is ultra low sulfur fuel inNYS. The rest of the country has low sulfur for engine fuel and will be catching up to NYS in a year or two.

Stonebroke

mad murdock

Out here the specs for JetA, # 1 stove oil or #1 diesel call for ultra low sulphur fuel.  The scare tactic is that they may not be the same, so that supposedly a motor carrier enforcement stop might yield a hefty ticket for non-taxed fuel being in a vehicle that should have taxed fuel.  This is very true with the dye, but as far as I read the MSDS sheets on the various fuels, there is no differentiation on the sulphur levels.  I am no Petroleum Engineer, just a CDL toting helicopter mechanic.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

Bobus2003

Quote from: stonebroke on April 16, 2010, 05:34:58 PM
Quote from: mad murdock on April 16, 2010, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: mr T on April 16, 2010, 03:23:48 PM

#1 diesel is the same thing as #1 kerosene, or #1 stove oil, or even Aviation Jet A.  It is all the same thing.  The branding takes place at the bulk plant, when they add the dye, or it gets loaded on a truck as stove oil, or on road diesel, or Aviation Jet A, the naming of the end product determines how it is packaged and handled. 


Used to be, no more. Engine fuel is ultra low sulfur fuel inNYS. The rest of the country has low sulfur for engine fuel and will be catching up to NYS in a year or two.

Stonebroke

LSD was just a stepping stone for the ULSD (500PPM to 15PPM) The whole country is running ULSD now (Required in any Diesel Pickup Manufatured after 2007 Model Year) and In 2006 was when the transition began.. If you have old equipment that was designed on high Sulfur diesel just at 2 stroke oil to the fuel (ATF works as well plus is a nice way to clean injectors).. the new ULSD has been known to cause wear on Injector pumps on the older Engines

BAR

What is the preferred concentrations of ATF in LSD &  ULSD in older engines? ......and how was it determined?

BAR
3340 Zetor with Allied Loader & Fransguard Winch, Woodmizer LT27T,

mr T

Welcome Bar    When your in concord were almost neighbors I have used atf in past altho most engine manufacturers frown on it I use power service additives now with no probs

Ironwood

I use additives in my 2000 PSD

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

mad murdock

additives are the way to go if'n you are running any older piece of equipment.  It is hard to get good fuel these days.  Even Gasoline is crap on most states where they have added an ethenol blend to it.  Gas goes sour after about 30 days of sitting, unless you add some sort of stabilizer, or other additive that neutralizes the effects of the ethanol in the gas.  I run the SD15 diesel in my '64 garrett with the 172 cu. in. ford.  I put additives in the fuel, as was stated previously, when they took out the sulphur, they took alot of good qualities of the fuel, i.e. power, lube qualities etc. out as well, and it is not as kind to the older engines to run it straight as it comes out of the pump. 
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

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