my beautiful white pines

Rokky Rakkoon · October 18, 2003, 07:48:19 PM

i spent the last 2 days out in the woods (in Upper Michigan) counting and measuring my white pines. it seemed like a funny thing to do, but its so nice out there and ive always wondered how many we have. and maybe i'll learn something in the process. it looks like the average diameter is about 24" and 40-50 feet of potential logs, altho they taper down to maybe 12" by that point. according to a chart i have, this looks like about 500 bf/tree. can anyone tell me what the $ value of such a tree would be to a logging company, based on 100 trees? just a rough ball park idea for my own curiosity. i really have no intention of cutting them so i dont want to bother some logger to come out to look. thanks, JY

Ron Wenrich · October 19, 2003, 05:30:11 AM

Extension agent or your local state forestry office should be able to fill you in on a rough figure.

Jeff · October 19, 2003, 06:58:39 AM

When Ron Scott gets on he can probably give a good idea of current stumpage prices for Michigan.

Ron Scott · October 19, 2003, 12:40:13 PM

Johnny,

Where are the trees more specifically located in the UP? From the map it looks like maybe around Munising, Marquette area?

I can give you the State's average price per MBF depending upon the forest area location.

Rokky Rakkoon · October 19, 2003, 04:11:53 PM

QuoteJohnny,

Where are the trees more specifically located in the UP? From the map it looks like maybe around Munising, Marquette area?

I can give you the State's average price per MBF depending upon the forest area location.

not too far from Baraga. thanks, JY

Ron Scott · October 20, 2003, 09:47:09 AM

The latest State's average price for white pine sawlogs in your area is $151.03/MBF (thousand board feet) with a minimum price of $100.00/MBF. If your trees average 500 bd ft/tree, you can figure $50.00 - 75.00/ sawlog tree (International 1/4" scale).

That's the starting price on the stump. Harvest costs of falling, bucking, skidding, road costs, hauling, distance to the mill, quality, etc would need to be deducted to detmine the minimum value appraised value.

White pine pulpwood in your area has an average price of $23.00/cord.

IndyIan · October 20, 2003, 12:16:46 PM

JY,
Seems like you learned your trees are worth more standing up! 8)

Those mature stands are always nice to spend some time in.

Do you have any idea how old they are?

Ian

Rokky Rakkoon · October 20, 2003, 10:35:37 PM

QuoteJY,
Seems like you learned your trees are worth more standing up! 8)

Those mature stands are always nice to spend some time in.

Do you have any idea how old they are?

Ian

lol. wow. i'm shocked!

ty Ron Scott for those $ figures. i'm too embarrassed to reveal the figure i was hallucinating. it seems like a 100 or even 200 yrs of growing just for $50. thats amazing.
yes, i agree with you Ian. i love the beauty of the forest and most of my white pines are on the back half of my 40 acres. ive been busy back there making trails and little clearings for a place to sit and have a camp fire. i get most of my wood for my projects form the front part nearer the highway, which may be the reason there are only a couple of white pines up there. perhaps past owners have already taken them.
as to age, i dont know, but now i'll have to try to figure it out. the biggest are a bit over 8' in circumference, approaching 3' diameter. there is a fallen one from a few years ago. maybe i can cut a slice and count the rings. i'll let you know someday what i find out. JY

L. Wakefield · October 22, 2003, 06:06:21 PM

So maybe bypass the middleman and think not about $/MBF but about houses and other things that can be built and the value of those. I would really like to know. I bet you the value is a lot higher- even if you take out the cost of the labor. Look, it's a tree- no it's a pile of lumber- no, it's a house!

lw

IndyIan · October 24, 2003, 02:20:34 PM

LW,
Sometimes I look at my woodpile that way too, if it was beside a gas pump it would be worth $5 an arm full!

For my house I'm going to harvest some white cedar on our land and have them sawn up for board and batten siding. Cedars are worth nearly nothing here standing, but once they've been sawn up its going to save us $1500 in siding.
Trees are neat that way! 8)

Ian

Rokky Rakkoon · October 25, 2003, 07:08:04 PM

yep. cedar is an amazing wood. i'm thinking seriously about making my own coffin out of my own cedar trees. i dont know what the rules are about that, but i like the idea. JY

Rokky Rakkoon · October 25, 2003, 07:19:16 PM

Ian. by the way, i helped my neighbor cut down a couple of his white pines today (i mainly watched). but they were 24" diameter and he got three 16's and a 12 out of one. altho, we were really stretching it with the 12. not bad tho. anyway, i counted the growth rings. about 75. i thought they'd be older than that. so thats about the age of my white pines also.
i live in a log cabin that was built in the late 40's and i can still see the tree stumps out there in the woods from the cedars they used. the guy down the road who is 72, was telling me he remembers his grandfather help the guy who built this cabin with his horse to pull the logs out of the woods.

Ron Wenrich · October 25, 2003, 10:26:49 PM

You guys start out with a toic of "how much are my pines worth" and end up with "Boy, there's a lot of history here"

That is a tough nut to husk.

Every woodlot I get into, every log I open up, I think about that thread of history that unites us.

I'm working on a woodlot that's really close to me. It has over mature hardwoods, but it stands on the edge of an old canal. Think older than the Erie Canal.

I could recomend a cutting that gets the optimum dollar for the landowner. Or, I could recommend a thinning that removes the diseased trees and continues the integruity of the stand. Lower dollars. Ethics are a two edged sword.

What is the value of those old oaks? Is it timber value? Is it historic value? How do you make a monetary valuation? Man, that makes foresty tough!

IndyIan · October 26, 2003, 01:31:04 PM

JY,
24" trees in 75 years is some good growth. Do you have any seed trees around? Ones that survived the last cut?

I'm not totally sure of the history of my place but we have a couple big pines that seem to have survived the initial clearing and basically grew in the open until the forest grew back around them. Here is one, the big branches all the way down show its been in the open but the forest has grown up.

The black block to the right is my atv and the clearing I shot the picture from is from some recent logging a couple years ago. The skidder trail went right beside it and the roots were exposed and damaged but it seems to be Ok so far.

You'll have to post some pictures of your house too. Cabins made out of local logs seem to have something special about them.
One of my friends has a log cottage that he and his Dad built in the early 50's. Made with hemlocks cut within two person dragging distance

It's not big but has lots of character and blends into the woods like its been there 100's of years.

Ron,
I'm glad you take other factors into account than just short term money when you do your consulting. I'm sure lots of landowners just want the big check but it's good you think about other values.

Ian

rebocardo · October 26, 2003, 02:31:34 PM

Because trees are worth more as cord wood than anything else, usually if they are on the small side, I have decided to start planting almost all hardwoods to replace what I take down on my own property. I love pine trees, just not worth much money, especially if you can not burn it. imo.

So, the pines I cut down for people, I have decided to turn into boards instead of dumping them at the curb in 12-24 inch sections for trash collection. Just seems a real waste to turn a 50+ year old tree into land fill.

UNCLEBUCK · October 26, 2003, 02:41:03 PM

JohnnyYooper ! cabin logs such as yours with 24 inch butt and 12inch top at 50 feet as of 4 years ago were going for 4 dollars a log foot northwest of duluth minnesota so about 200 dollars per log then the cabin owner also pays 2 dollars a loaded mile for delivery , I couldnt find decent cabin logs 4 years ago northwest of duluth,mn. so yeah you got yourself alot of beautiful trees, I been through your way 8 times in the last year and I love it over in that area, I live about 7-1/2 hours west of you !

Rokky Rakkoon · October 26, 2003, 04:58:18 PM

well, thats an interesting take on it. that logs could be worth more as a whole unit to be used for log houses. as long as theyre straight enough etc i assume. altho, i did find that even a log that doesnt look all that straight usually has a pretty good section in it to be used somewhere.
the cabin that was built here in the 40's and the one i built recently are both made out of much smaller logs. mostly 10" to 14" at the big end. but even they were plenty heavy (for me) when green and 20 -24' long before trimming to needed length. i pulled all my logs out by hand and then hauled them on a small trailer with my beat up old three wheeler. it was the bigger logs around 18" that i cut into 8' and 12' lengths and then hauled to my neighbor to cut into boards for the roof and flooring that were the toughest to work with in the woods.
i'll bore you guys with some pictures but i think i'll wait for a couple of weeks. i'm a snowbird (how embarrassing!) and i'll be out west and have access to a much higher speed isp for the winter. i did spend one winter here but this cabin isnt winterized. the water pipes are exposed, the roof nor floor aren't insulated, and when the north wind blows, the curtains in here blow around too! its a summer cabin. JY

Rokky Rakkoon · October 26, 2003, 05:25:29 PM

Ian, i'm not quite sure what you mean by seed tree. maybe one of the big trees that is producing seeds that grow? my forest floor has several hundred/a thousand or more white pine seedlings from 12" to 24" tall. what i find interesting is i have seen only a handfull of white pines in the 4 or 5' tall range out there. and then there are the 100 mature trees. nothing in the "teenage" years. something just doesnt let the white pine seedlings survive. too much shade maybe? the balsam fir seedlings and young trees grow like weeds . in fact, thats on my project list is to go out there and thin out a lot of the baby balsams just so i can have some elbo room.

Minnesota_boy · October 26, 2003, 05:38:04 PM

I've noticed that here in Minnesota too, that there are groves of 20 to 30 inch diameter white pines and there are seedlings, but nothing in the middle. Were the bigger trees not casting viable seeds until they were that mature, or has weather changed that much that the seeds now grow?

IndyIan · October 27, 2003, 06:31:47 AM

JY,
My seed tree idea might not apply where you are. Where I live most of the land was cleared at one point for farming. There would be a couple trees left that would provide the seed for regrowth of the forests. So sometimes there are a few older trees that started in the open that provided seed for the surrounding even aged stand. That's one in the picture I posted.

This may not be true of your area at all, although clearcutting can do the same thing I believe.

My pine groves lack teenage pine trees as well, actually most of my woods is missing the 6-8" dbh trees. Probably there were cattle in the woods 20 years ago that killed any younger growth. White Pines are intolerant of shade so once the canopy closes up the ones in the shade start dieing. WP Seedlings are tolerant of shade for a couple years but they'll die without sun as well.

If you do have a few trees cut make a few clearings and that will allow some younger trees to get some light and grow. At this cottage I mentioned above, a big hemlock blew over taking a couple other trees with it making a hole in the canopy. It's amazing how in a couple years the amount of new growth that appeared there. The rest of the forest is just pine and hemlock needles, hardly any plants at all on the forest floor.

Ian