Stihl MS 280: repair or replace?

[Damocles]

I couldn't cut it all in one day even if I wanted to. It's not just bucking, but felling, limbing, hauling, and I burn the little stuff too. Treetops heat my house in the spring and fall. My firewood is all scattered around the property and not easy to get at. I also scavenge any easy pickins I can find left by road crews or whatever... So I need to have the saw available at all times. Plus I'm lazy and I like to work on it a couple hours at a shot when the weather is nice and I have no paid work.

However, I am getting convinced by you guys that I should buy a better saw, and fix this one myself. I'm a small engine newbie so I'll need a manual, parts supplier, and time. So here's my next question; since I have no experience diagnosing any given problem, and no knowledgeable buddies I can bribe with a beer, how far can I push this board with stupid questions before y'all start getting annoyed?

[jteneyck]

Not to worry.  These guys tolerate me most of the time.  You'll get nothing but good help here. 

[Rocky_J]

I can't understand having all these problems with a saw that's only cut 30 cords of wood up.
...

The problem is that most saw owners run their saw exactly as it comes from the dealer. Most new saws today are set up to self destruct thanks to emissions limits. The only way to get decent performance AND LONG LIFE out of a new saw is to immediately retune it the day you buy it. Open the muffler, remove the carb limiter caps and richen it up to where it runs properly. Otherwise you end up like the original poster in this thread wondering why your new saw burned up after a couple years of light use. And the dealer gives you a ridiculous repair price and tries to sell you another saw, your warranty is worthless.

[Al_Smith]

 So here's my next question; since I have no experience diagnosing any given problem, and no knowledgeable buddies I can bribe with a beer, how far can I push this board with stupid questions before y'all start getting annoyed?

Oh trust me you haven't even come close to stupid questions yet .Nothing wrong with asking questions because you don't know the answers .

You want to see stupid questions just surf the internet a little more .

[stonebroke]

The only stupid question is the one you do not ask.

Stonebroke

[lumberjack48]

Rocky's statement is right on, a new saw is set to lean right out of the box. When you run a saw every day you get to know the does and don'ts.  
There's no such thing as a dump question, if i was close I''d be right there to help. But like i said take your time, i know you will be a happy camper learning on your own.
If the saw runs at all you can check for a air leak with a can of starting fluid, spray it around and when the saw rvs up there it is, pretty simple check.
When i got a new saw I'd set it a little rich for the first 8 tanks of gas or so, retighten all the screws i could get at, take the screen out of the muffler [a must].
You can't adjust most of the new saws, i wounder who's benefit that is.
I ran all my saws 32:1 mixture, i wouldn't run off brand oil, but to each there own.
Good job guy, getting wood up like that keeps you young, fresh air, and that smell of that two cycle oil how in the hell can it get any better
I can't see how the crank seals can be bad on that little use, see if the crack shaft has any movement, i mean up and down, on the clutch side.

[Rocky_J]

I'd be looking at the impulse line as well. Newer user means the saw was probably jerked and yanked on a few times getting it stuck. That pulls the mounts out of whack and then the impulse line pulls off the nipple. Or it tears the intake rubber.

But the seals won't be leaking unless the chain was way overtightened, pulling the crankshaft out of whack and/or forcing it through the cut with a dull chain.

I'm not accusing or trying to be critical, just listing off some common problems and their causes. Most quit happening with more experience. 

[timber tramp]

 >> since I have no experience diagnosing any given problem, and no knowledgeable buddies I can bribe with a beer, how far can I push this board with stupid questions before y'all start getting annoyed?

   Like others have said, just ask. However, I personally can be "bribed with beer" P.M. me if interested, I'll send you my addy.  ;)  ;D ;D                TT

[Al_Smith]

  Look at Bailey's for cheaper parts. I just saved over $100 on parts for my 460.

Mark

Yes you can save a few bucks on some items .However if they are Stihl parts you will find there isn't much difference in the price .Items such as seals, intake boots etc as a general rule are OEM ,meaning they must be purchased from a dealer .

Recently I ordered the wrong part and that being an air filter for an 034 Stihl .Actually the correct part from a dealer was priced within pennys of Baileys . Now keep in mind that dealer prices can vary also .---The secret is finding a good dealer because they vary too without elaborating at great length on that subject .

[bandmiller2]

Parts sales are not a big money maker for dealerships they charge alot for a simple part just to break even.If you pay a man fair wage and he takes 15 min to look up and find the bar adjust screw whats your profit??Frank C.

[Damocles]

I don't begrudge anyone getting a fair wage. Wouldn't mind it myself. The dealer I went to is a good guy and it's all very small town local. I was thinking I'd jut ask him to sell me the parts directly when I pick up the saw. If it's a couple bucks more, I'm sure I'll get some good advice on the way. Plus, I paid him $25 for the estimate already.

You guys are incredibly helpful, glad I found this board. When I mention "chainsaw" to my girl, her eyes just glaze over...

[JohnG28]

Now thats something I relate to. The word chainsaw usually sends her off to the next room, or she has a sudden urge to look at the ceiling.

[timber tramp]

   Mine just hides the checkbook. ;D                  TT

[lumberjack48]

My wife drove skidder, she came from town one day, walked in and told me she bought a new toy, i said what the hell did you buy now, well she said I'll go get it, it was a new 026, then she said now i don't have to wait for you to top my drags any more. 8)

[Al_Smith]

Any time you buy OEM parts from a dealer you are going to pay more .It doesn't make any difference if it's Stihl,John Deere ,Caterpillar,Harley Davidson or Ford .I might add Honda and Toyota too for those so inclined to own them of which I am not one  of .

Just the way it is, has been and will be forever .

Now some times like carb rebuild kits you can save money on by using generic but some parts you just have no choice unless you find them per chance on flea bay or something .

[Damocles]

Lumerjack, does she have any sisters?

At ant rate, I figure that he can put together a parts list for me and save me some hours figuring out what I need. At least that's the theory. Does anyone know a good source for a repair manual? Online even?

[JohnG28]

Glad that you decided to try to fix er up, will be a good feeling when you get it running at 100% again with your own hands.  As for manuals, member Boobap I believe had some Stihl IPBs and manuals I think, if you look back there is a thread about people in need of these, says Stihl IPBs in the topic.

[Damocles]

OK, got the saw back. The repair guy doesn't know where the leaky seal is so I couldn't buy any seals until I find the problem myself. Boobap was kind enough to send me IPB and manual so I should be ready to roll. I'll start to dig into it soon but I'm wondering if anyone has some specific advice about how to proceed. I would just start taking it apart and reading through the manual and hoping I see something obvious. Probably making lots of extra work for myself in the process.

[joe_indi]

The safety lock plastic guard thing is busted almost off, there is an air leak in the crank case (not 100% positive that's what he said - I was still reeling from the price), a couple bushings are missing (extra vibration may have contributed to the crank case problem), general tune up, and bang... $300.

The couple of bushings you've mentioned  might be the root cause of the problem.
I get to see this condition quite often here.
The saw must have been pushed too much into the wood with its dull chain.Typically on a Stihl when you do this it sets off a chain reaction.
The bushes bust or come off their slots..........
This causes the crankcase  to wobble too much on the tank housing...........
Which in turn causes extra load on the on the components that connect the crankcase to the tank housing.............In this case the manifold and the impulse hose................They might come off or tear............ Which causes air to move in, which strongly resemble a leaking crankcase.
So check the manifold and, definitely, the impulse hose.
By the safety lock thing you must mean the trigger interlock on the handle or the switch shaft (on/off switch).These a simple replacement items. Just check the 'Air Leak' first.

[Damocles]

Thanks, I think you're likely correct. Now that I look at the IPB, I see that what I've been calling bushings are annular buffers with bushings internal.

Last year while cutting I noticed that the annular buffers were fallen off. I have no idea how long I worked with them damaged, but I pushed them back in place with a screwdriver as best I could and kept on cutting all fall and the next spring. So wrong, I know.

"Safety lock thing" actually means chain brake... Easy to replace I think.

Going through the manual it seems there are some tools I'll need. I would like to avoid buying stuff until I actually need it. Do you guys think I have to get a vacuum pump to test at this point? Any must-have specialized tools I need to open my wallet for?

Also, there is something confusing me. Between the two annular buffers on the bottom there is a post protruding into an opening. It looks like spring or something is missing there, but I haven't found a reference to it in the manual or IPB. I couldn't figure out how to attach a JPG so I changed my profile pic to illustrate. How's that!?

[Damocles]

So the real question I have is; what do I do next? I got it mostly apart, ready to replace the chain brake and the annular buffers, but it seems like I should locat the air leak first. Left to my own devices, I would just keep taking it apart and look to see if I see anything obvious like a bad gasket or cracked hose. Something tells me there is a smarter way to proceed though.

Also, there is no mention of an "impulse line" in the manual. It must be called something different.

[JohnG28]

The impulse line should come out of the bottom of the crankcase, and it goes to the carb, I think on the bottom of it as well.  As for the air leak, Id start where joeindi said, possibly around the intake boot.  After that, Im not sure what to tell you though, sorry.

[joe_indi]

Also, there is no mention of an "impulse line" in the manual. It must be called something different.

That is true.There might be no mention of an impulse line. But it is there.
Maybe not in the manual that you have.But it is there in the parts list.And it is there on the saw.Otherwise it wouldn't run.
Since I have never seen a MS280 before, I am going by the drawings in the parts list.
In the case of the MS280, probably the hose connects to a small nipple on the cylinder, just below the manifold.
A tube goes from this nipple to another one on the tank housing, again, just below the manifold.
I think this must be it:


This seems to be a similar configuration to the 1123 series of saws (021/023/025/MS210/230/250).
And, here is the clincher, the 1123 series of saws are notorious for impulse lines coming off at the carburetor end, if you tend to put too much of push or pull pressure on the saw.
With those two busted buffers, I am sure that the impulse hose has come off it connector, that is, if it has not been damaged.
Look between the cylinder and the tank housing, just below the manifold.You should be able to see a bit of hose somewhere.
When you locate it.Use a nose pliers to check whether its fixed at both ends.
Joe

[Damocles]

Got it, thank you! Impulse hose appears to be good but I'm going to remove it and inspect for cracks. I'll take the boot off the crankcasee to and see if it's intact then look at the crank case seals.

[Damocles]

Ok, more questions... Thanks to help from previous posts I got the flywheel off easy and am looking at the oil seals. They look fine to me but I might be looking at a problem and not seeing it. So I figured I should remove them. The manual says I need to buy a special puller for that job. It also says to tap the seals with a punch to free them up. I don't see how tapping them will free them up without damaging them. I mean I could dig them out with a screwdriver - then I would KNOW they were bad! As for the puller, is there another way to get them out? I'll save a dollar wherever it makes sense. Besides, the illustration showing the puller in use has it pulling on the shaft - not the seals. Is it supposed to pull the shaft through and the seal comes with it, then do the same on the clutch side? Sorry, but I'm scratching my head here and figured I'd ask you guys before destroying something.

I will now go destroy something else and see if anyone made sense of my question. Thanks.