Sawmills-Article in New York Times

[dtody]

There is an article in the paper regarding Federal law that prohibits anyone under 18 from working in a sawmill or woodworking business.  The Amish are focused on as their young men are encouraged to "learn a trade" rather than "sit on a couch."  
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/18/national/18AMIS.html?pagewanted=1&th

I remember when my two oldest were dropped off at Little League after putting in a morning on the garbage route, and now they still know what work is.  My youngest helped me build the cabin the summer he was 16.

Why are they a target just because they might be better at rearing their children?   Any thoughts?

[oldsaw]

It is a way of life based on family, religion, and self sufficiency.  That is anti-government, since those children are not being allowed to have sex before marriage, won't participate in government dependence programs, and will be able to think for themselves.  

Personally, I grew up the oldest on a farm, and put in many long hours running farm equipment.  Drove my first tractor at 7, my first truck at 8 or 9, on the highway at 11, picked up a chainsaw at 14, had to use an axe before that.  I've just completed an inventory.  10 fingers, 10 toes, which means two arms, two legs, and my head is still fully attached.  I guess I came out okay.

Let the Amish be.  They are a good people just trying to adapt to the changing world, like the rest of us, only about 100 years back...lots of good things to say about that.  Life was better in many ways a century ago.

Mark

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Aaaah Yes!
The long arm of government trying to protect us from ourselves, yet again.

As I conversed with one of my customers, many years my senior, she shared her early responsibilities in life - primarily helping rear her five younger siblings (out of a total of nine), while maintaining what was then a typical rigorous chore schedule, as she grew up on a farm in Parks County, Indiana.  My reply to her highlighted the fact that our "new and improved" lifestyle often makes it very difficult to develop responsibility in our children.  At one time it was a no-brainer - automatically children could be and were involved in the work of the parents.

I have made a conscious effort to fight the trends, but I still remember the chagrin of my mother in law, when she discovered that my six year old (now he is 16) was using rechargeable drills as play toys.  (Hey, I had a plan in mind.  Now he can use the stuff!)  In actuality, I don't feel that I have fought the fight very well, but at least I have a couple more years with the guy!

I am neither, but I consider the Amish and the Mennonites good models in many ways.
Phil L.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've worked with 12 year olds in the Amish mill.  They work hard, but you still have to watch them, as they are just too young for the work, and can get hurt pretty quick.  By the time they get to be 14-16, they can handle the work just fine.

I once asked an Amish man why he has his kids working at an early age.  His reply was it kept them out of trouble.  Learning the rigors of hard work is a primary goal of the Amish that I know.

I don't think the govt. has any business in anyone's way of life.  When all the bureaucrat's kids are model citizens, then they can tell the rest of how to do it.  

I wonder if the ACLU will get on the bandwagon and sue for the seperation of church and state?  This would be a classic issue where the state is trying to govern religious customs.

[Frank_Pender]

AMEN!, Ron.

   It reminds me of Johnathan, the seagull. People or birds that are different from the flock and outcast and the powers that be want everthing and one in the same fold.  The differentiantion with this society makes it what it is, GREAT.   but you see, man always want uniformity and sameness, it beckons for security in that every one is the same and more easily predictable and controlable.  Dang the soapbox is getting slick.  I'll jump off and go to bed.

[KiwiJake]

Too right, 18 years of glistening clean tender hands, thrown in to the hard brutal overworked work force and expected to fend and provide for themselfs, experience is a valuable tool when it comes to employment, it should be takin at a capable age! ???

[Bibbyman]

Mary and I have a special customer for cedar lumber.  He's a young Amish furniture maker.  It's hard to say but I'd guess he's hardly 16.  His work is outstanding.  His tools are basically modern but are powered by a gas engine ran on a common shaft.  His shop was about 16x16 with a shed on the side that I'd guess was a buggy garage before he took it over to store lumber and to set up his planer –  also modern but converted to gas engine.

We last saw him last spring when we dropped off his last order.  He said he was building a new shop up on the blacktop about a 1/2 miles away.

Last Saturday we took a ride up in that area with an idea to stop in and see how he was coming along. We were amazed to see a LARGE sheet metal building almost completed that looked more like a church or meeting place.  Behind it was another building that looked like a barn.  Out in front was a small building about 10'x16' that looked like a typical utility shed.  

I pulled between the large building and the small shed to what looked to be a barn as I figured that would be the most likely place to find Elmer.   I stepped out to listen and call out.  But behind me came this young woman – looked to be a girl about 12.  She greeted me and I told her who I was and was just stopping in to see Elmer.  She said he was at an auction.

She explained that the rear section of the large building maybe 40'x80' single story was going to be his furniture shop and the big main section – probably 80'x80' two story was going to be the showroom and part of the front was going to be where they live.  

I asked if they were going to move the whole family over (thinking I was talking to one of his sisters).  She clarified no,  she and Elmer had gotten married last June and they were living in the small building I took for a utility shed. I said it looked cozy enough for newly weds.

Not sure with to make of it.

[HORSELOGGER]

Yikes

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Bibby, yer gettin old Dude, just like the rest of us :D :D :D :D
  I see youngsters driving and such, and, I swear they can't be but 12 or 13 : : :

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Go Elmer!

When I look back at our wedding photos, which were snapped when I and the lovely bride were 23, I could swear that we look 16. (Even now I look fifteen yrs. younger than I am,  OF COURSE.    8))
It is amazing how our own chronology affects how we estimate the ages of the young.

Let's say that Elmer is really 18, with an obviously responsible bride of 15.  Hey,... news flash, my mother-in-law was married at fifteen years of age.  (Right up until his death, I playfully accused my father-in-law of being a cradle robber, since he was twenty years old when he nabbed her.  When I saw the pictures of her at fifteen, I saw why he made the move!   )

Judging by Bibby's account, if Elmer ain't responsible enough and dedicated enough to marry, who is?   On the other hand, the cultural package around these blessed young-uns is what makes the scenario work.   In fact, it appears that this supportive atmosphere, provided by Amish and the Mennonites, is far more effective than that which is seldom provided by the bulk of modern American society.  Without this approval, support, and "sub-cultural correctness",  well....  I would have to say "YIKES", also.  Most other couples do benefit from the support of immediate family;  In the case we are discussing, however, it seems to be much broader, more like Little House on the Prairie but gas powered, maybe.
Phil L.
P.S.   It appears that Elmer's scale of building will allow plenty of room for the, doubtless, soon-to-arrive children to help, huh? ;)

[Bibbyman]

Well,  Mary and  I were just 17 and 19 when we got married and it's worked out so far.  Most everyone in this Amish community is small a slender built - that could make them appear younger then they are.  

I guess I'm amazed at the mature confidence this young man has.  My two sons are single and 30 and 32 years old.  If they converted everything they've accumulated into cash, and put it together,  they maybe have enough for a down payment on a new car.
 :(

[trey_w]

I've learned a few things about culture over the last 10 years or so.  I've traveled and actually lived in other countries in Asia, Africa, and South America.  I've seen things that would shock most americans but are perfectly acceptable in whatever culture I was in.  Including girls/women getting married very young.  If the families all support it, and the bride and groom are happy and not being forced into it, I don't see anything wrong with it.  

I'm not saying I would want my daughter (don't have one yet) or son (on the way) to get married that early, but that's because it's not needed in today's society.  Most of us have the luxury of being able to make money and not rely on our kids to "help out" with the family business.  Although, I have to say that I think something fundamental is being lost because of it.  

*steps down from pulpit*

[AndyB]

IMO it depends on the mental maturity of the individuals.  Met my wife the day after my 18th birthday.  Had the worlds biggest hangover from a party the night before.  Three weeks later I proposed, four months later we were married.  Neither family approved.  So we moved to California and didn't come back for five years.  Have been married for 46 years now and I'd still propose to her in a picasecond. 8) 8) 8)

Oooh, she is older than me so she must have robbed the cradle ;D ;D

[oldsaw]

If they objected, that would mean that all of us kicking in our 2 cents worth on this would be wrong.  They are my leading indicator on whether I'm taking the right or wrong thought path in a situation...guaranteed wrong 95%+.  Those odds don't come easy.

Buncha dang cradle robbers.  Me and mine were 27, and I often think I was still too young.

Mark

[pappy]

NEW YORK CITY !!!!! :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ !!!!


hummm??????? dey still got some trees wit branches ????

 :'( :'( tuff place fer a sawmill  :P  :P


I'm glad I live like dis





and knot like dis  



cluck, cluck, cluck

[MemphisLogger]

Sure glad I don't live in New York!

I'd never catch up witout workin' my son . . .



 ;D 8) ;)

[dtody]

Urban Logger and all,

It's a federal law, the NY Times carried the article.  That was one of the points I tried to show, that having our own kids, under 18, work for us in the "sawmill business" may be illegal.  It's ok til something happens, or it's reported, then watch out.

[AndyB]

If I was concerned about this I would get a copy of the law and read it.  Most likely the key word is employed referring to someone on the payroll.  Most young folks assisting in a family business are not on the payroll.  I say most because I have seen 8 year olds on a payroll for performing janitorial service. Called starting an individual retirement account at an early age ;D ;D

When I was in the consulting business the government came out with the competition in contracting law.  According to this everything had to be awarded competitively.  However, upon reading the law I found nine exceptions to competing the contract.  Very beneficial $$$$ to understand the law in its entiirety. : :

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Boy, oh boy!

We sawmillers have it all ...:
           Urbanites to Pioneers,
           Philosophers to Pulpiteers !
Is it the fresh air, the hard work,...
       [shadow=red,left,300]OR JUST THE SAWDUST? [/shadow]  :D
Phil L.
  

[Frank_Pender]

Phil, it is the indivuality that gave this part of the world its ibasis for industrialization. 8)

[dewwood]

First I would like to say that I have absolutely nothing against the Amish communities.  I have several friends who are Amish and I admire and respect them for a lot of reasons.

However, the law which is being discussed states that no one under 18 can be employed in a woodworking business as one earlier post indicated.  This is not about young people helping in the family business.  It is about working for wages away from the family business.  There are several sects of the Amish who would like to be exempt from some of the OSHA rules governing the lumber industry.  They believe they should also be exempt from workers compensation insurance because they do not believe in or use it.  I can respect anyones religous beliefs, however when they go against the laws of our land it becomes a different question.  One other consideration is, if you are in the same business and competing with someone who does not have to pay as high a wage and does not pay workmans compensation premiums then it will be very difficult for you to compete with them.

Just a few thoughts.

Dewey

[Ron Wenrich]

Wherein the seperation of church and state comes in.  I believe the Amish have been forced into paying Social Security.  Will they be forced to abandon their buggies because they are unsafe to other drivers?

Govenrment still thinks it has the absolute answer for every kind of problem.  Makes no difference if it is Republicans or Democrats.  They still try to micro-manage at the macro level.  It just doesn't work very well.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the Amish not paying for insurance.  Sure, they can undercut your price.  Many times, the church dictates how much a person can pay their help.  But, they do pay taxes and support their government.  

You think they're bad, just look where all the manufacturing jobs went to in this country.  They went to those places that don't pay much in wages or give insurance or have big company pensions.

[Bibbyman]

I suspect the reason they don't need Social Security,  insurance, etc. is because they tend to take care of their own.  I've not seen an Amish nursing home for example – the parents raise the kids and pass along or help the kids get started and then the kids help the parents when they get old.  

Because there is no big bloated government agency, or insurance company with buildings that cover city blocks with thousands of employees,  they are able to keep the cost of providing for their own very low.

[Jeff]

We have a very large Amish community in our county and surrounding counties. They don't compete for our lumber markets but they are, as a combined force, competition for logs.

I don't think thier lack of paying taxes has much to do with it. I think its the way they pay. If Logger X has a load of logs and we are paying the exact same price as the amish, and the hauling distance and conditions to either of us is the same, the Amish will get the load most every time.

Why?  Because they pay cash. Guess who it is that's really not paying taxes at times...

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

IRONY WHICH BITES LIKE IRON

Returning to one of the themes of an earlier post,  there is a side to this discussion which has saddened me for years.  It first became obvious to me twenty six years ago, when I worked with the music program of our church with youth.

We are all probably aware of child abuse which existed in the US and many countries during the beginning of the industrial age - sweat shop labor.   It still exists in some parts of the world.   The Child Protection Act and components of other labor related laws, as well as union regulations, came into being to prevent this.  All of us would agree that abusive work practice or endangerment, in relation to children, is bad - is bad, period.  

So, where is this irony?   You have already guessed, I'm sure:  The extremes to which we have oscillated have resulted in such a compartmentalization of "childhood", that the instillation of that old "work ethic" sometimes goes by the wayside.  The pendulum swung from abuse in one form to another, namely,  a mis-training of youth, which not only hurts the individual, but damages the proverbial "fabric of society".  The bite is this irony.   Let's work to see a balance, but also to see a freedom which will still ensure that a family unit, clannish or mainstream, has the freedom to buck this extreme and find their own solution.

The sharp edge extends into education.  In recent conversations and experiences with educators in the public school system, it has become more obvious than ever that proposed solutions to educational woes have become more one-size-fits-all, than ever.  In one case, a long-term educator in the Vo-tech type institution was asked by "yours truly", about the five modes of learning, about which I recently been thinking.   He responded that, of course, they knew about them, and he agreed with them.  Further, he explained that the best teachers still tended to individualize methods, however, neither time nor budget permits the real application of these common-sense methods.  A young man or woman who could best learn by doing (kenetic or movement learning style),  may get the chance after suffering ten years of bun-planting at a desk.  The one who learns visually, strains to see an occasional instruction film on a 20" TV from a distance which is three times too far from the screen, etc. ETC!  The family can also be the answer here, but the price tag, in personal effort, is high!  As one of us has already pointed out,  Individuality is what made us great.  God's creativity, wrapped up in the human genome is incredible.  Why thwart that?   Legally?  Educationally?

(love the early morning.  noggin works best then.
HEY, YOU IN THERE !  DO I GET TRIPLE CREDIT WHEN I DO TOO LONG OF A POST?)

 :D

Phil L.

[Frank_Pender]

SDorry, Phil, on the credit.  Like out here in most of our Oregon Sawmills you will recieve a D grade for the length of your essy.  You see out mills canot handle over sized logs, either.  We get much less ofor the large logs , as the mills are unable to handle them due to the equipment they now have to handle such mateial.  So, shorter essays, and smaller logs go hand in "dogs" riding the carrage of life.  

When I was teaching, any writing assignment that did not meet the length requirement of at least a half page,( hand written) was handed back with the option of a rewrite  or no credit.  Guess what many of the students chose. Thirty four years ago they chose to rewrite.  Five years ago they chose to not rewrite the assignment.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Aw, shucks!         :'(

(That's one more post!)         ;D

Phil L.