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Log Setup

Started by Magicman, March 30, 2010, 09:55:51 PM

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Magicman

I'm really sticking this on here especially for some of the new sawyers.  It's so very important to align defects with the blade properly to maximize the lumber yield from a log.

Some sawyers rotate 90o, some 180o, but that really doesn't matter.  I'm just showing what can be hidden in a log that can cause you to get virtually nothing from it.  On this log, I rotated 90o.




The log oriented so that the check is vertical for the first face opening



The third face is now ready to be opened.  (The camera angle is a little screwy.)



The squared cant is now being sawed "through".  Notice that the huge check will disappear within 2-3 boards.



That check ran almost the entire length of the log.  2 boards contained the majority of the defect.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

woodmills1

James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

customdave

Thanks magicman!, from a learning sawyer....


                   Dave   8)



Man I love this forum...just for this reason!!!
Love the smell of sawdust

Chuck White

It's good of you to show that kind of obstacle MM.
Took me a while when I started sawing, just to figure out how to handle checks like that!
It will work by either aligning the check vertically or horizontally when you're flipping 90°.

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

weisyboy

good job mate ;)

I do the same thing with the lucas only I align the heart (in australian hardwoods the heart is almost always like the pics you show and if its not its not allowed in structural boards as it is weaker than the rest of the log.) then saw down the the heart and "box it out" as a post 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 depending on what im cutting from the rest.

or if tehre is a bad crack away from the heart ill align so i can make a cut along the crack that way the saw kerf will remove most of the crack and we only get 1 or 2 defective boards.

good to see things are the same all over the world.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
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sigidi

what he said...

I try to roll onto my log supports and then try and spin it, so once it's loaded the defect can be contained in the least amount of boards or as Carl said the kerf can be lined up to take care of most of it. In that case I then 'start' measuring from the defect back to the left side of log in specific board sizes, then I can make sure where it will be once I get to it.
Always willing to help - Allan

Bibbyman

When we saw for grade and try to make a RR tie or beam out of the center,  I'll put it on the mill with the crack 45° from horizontal.  If the crack is not too big, it'll be left in the RR tie.  No boards lost.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ickirby

Quote from: Bibbyman on March 31, 2010, 09:05:17 AM
When we saw for grade and try to make a RR tie or beam out of the center,  I'll put it on the mill with the crack 45° from horizontal.  If the crack is not too big, it'll be left in the RR tie.  No boards lost.

I agree with Bibbyman.  If you put the crack (read knots, rot, check etc...) on a 45° to the blade then the defect will just end up in the edgings pile.

JBritt

Thanks for the info. Magicman.  Also I noticed your trailer setup w/winch in your pics.  I was wondering to myself how I could haul some timber home once I actually breakdown and buy a sawmill.  How long is your trailer?  I have a 6x10 with a 3500lb. axle.  I was concerned about the length but I suppose I could always take the gate off of the back when hauling longer pieces.  Does this sound "doable" to you?

Ron Wenrich

Ditto on the 45°.  If I put the crack on the corner of my boards, I can edge them out and get a better grade yield.  I try to put my knots on the corners as well.  It works out well on hardwoods when sawing for grade. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ljmathias

JBritt: not to rain on your parade- love to see people expanding their capabilities- but your trailer won't hold many logs if they're green.  I just brought home a couple of pine logs on my 18' with twin axles that are oversize and it was feeling the load pretty good.  There's a calculator in the toolbox you can use to estimate weight- just be careful not to bow your axles- been there, done that.

Oh, and have fun!

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Magicman

45o works well if you are leaving a cant.  My illustration was for sawing the entire log up into lumber.

In 8 years of sawing, I have never had a saw job where I left a cant.  My customers want all lumber, thus my reason for the post.  It was just to help new sawyers to understand what defects could be in a log and how to maximize the log's yield.

With the log that I sawed yesterday and again with the 31" Cherry log that I sawed today, if the defect had been oriented 45o there would not have been very much usable lumber because every board would have had that massive defect going through it.



I'll illustrate today's 31" Cherry log, which by the way, was well over 300 years old.



Log oriented with the check/crack vertical



The first face has been opened and the log turned 90o



The second face has been opened



The third face has been opened



Sawing is complete and the defect is contained within a couple of boards
A look at yesterday's post will show the type of defect that ran the entire length of the log.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Magicman

Quote from: JBritt on March 31, 2010, 03:27:58 PM
How long is your trailer?  I have a 6x10 with a 3500lb. axle.  I was concerned about the length but I suppose I could always take the gate off of the back when hauling longer pieces.  Does this sound "doable" to you?

No.  You need more trailer.  Hanging weight out the back will put a reverse load on your trailer tongue, cause severe sway, and can/will very easily wreck you..... >:(

My trailer is 18" which "might" allow me to haul 20' logs, but I never have.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

backwoods sawyer

One big advantage to sawing as magic has shown is you get wide boards. For those of us that do not have an edger handy it saves the step of edging all of the boards. Just be sure to align the pith so that it is straight to the saw cut from end to end to keep it contained. In the end whether you edge each board or pull a couple boards out of the center, you are still loosing the same amount of wood. For the tie and post markets the wood is not lost. 
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

captain_crunch

M_M
What kinda critter knawed that tree down :D :D :D. Thanks for the information but yer saw cuts in the wrong plane for me to understand :D :D
Brian
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

backwoods sawyer

It does have kind of an abstract art to it, kind of an early chain saw period from my beginning days look.  ;D
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

ljmathias

That critter probably walked on two legs and has feelings... :D

Guess I wouldn't be so worried about what the butt end looks like if it fell the right way, no damage to life or limb (both on the remaining trees and the critter cutting the tree down).

Nice work, MM- maybe we need some basic tutorial threads like Jim has set up on the timber framing forum, hey?  Would be great to have a set of permanent references to skills we all need (and many don't have, like me).  Example: just read some of the cautionary statements about tree climbing and limbing/topping- makes me re-think jumping into the climbing harness I bought and trying to top trees: way too dangerous without formal training.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Magicman

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on March 31, 2010, 10:48:32 PM
Just be sure to align the pith so that it is straight to the saw cut from end to end to keep it contained.

Exactly right.  In this instance before I opened the second face, I aligned the  pith 15" from the deck on both ends.  Thanks Backwoods, very important note.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

brdmkr

MM,

I don't have a band mill, but I still find it interesting to see how other tackle problems.  This has been a really interesting post.

Mike
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

JBritt

Quote from: Magicman on March 31, 2010, 10:24:45 PM
Quote from: JBritt on March 31, 2010, 03:27:58 PM
How long is your trailer?  I have a 6x10 with a 3500lb. axle.  I was concerned about the length but I suppose I could always take the gate off of the back when hauling longer pieces.  Does this sound "doable" to you?

No.  You need more trailer.  Hanging weight out the back will put a reverse load on your trailer tongue, cause severe sway, and can/will very easily wreck you..... >:(

My trailer is 18" which "might" allow me to haul 20' logs, but I never have.

10-4!

captain_crunch

Don't get me wrong I really enjoy the pictures and teachings. I have the old bellsaw and know most things about it except how to run it ;D ;D As in wood butcher so these posts are greatly appericated. The older fellers that broke me into cutting were Fanitics about square,level and pretty face cuts so I been acused of makeing a stump or two that they claimed a Beaver with false teeth could have done better :( :(. To be able to put a 5ft oldgrowth fir between 2 stumps 7-8 ft appart things had to be right or a lot of wood went to Diamond Match Co rather than mill.
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

sigidi

Quote from: brdmkr on April 01, 2010, 09:06:01 AM
MM,

I don't have a band mill, but I still find it interesting to see how other tackle problems.  This has been a really interesting post.

Mike

Mike, if presented with this kind of defect, (and seeing that it runs the full length of the log :( typically we get end checks on our logs down here, but that mos often only runs 6-8" into the log) how do you look at it with the Lucas? do you try and get the log set so the split is horizontal, vertical or do you try and put it 45 deg?
Always willing to help - Allan

brdmkr

I would try and get it vertical if it was not too much trouble, but this is primarily because I prefer to make the deep vertcal cuts over deep horizontals.  Sometimes I'll get into a log and find something in there that I don't like.  It may alter what  I was trying to do (for example, I may have to abandon the idea of quater sawing) but I often can cut around bad stuff by cutting wider in the horizontal or cutting deeper etc as needed. 

I suppose the thing that bothers me most with my mill is tension in the log.  Sometimes as you cut, the wood moves a touch.  Based on what I read from the band millers, they just flip the cant and keep on cutting.  That is not so easy with the swinger.  I normally try to take a thin cut to compensate, but sometimes this does not help that much or you wind up taking a thin cut followed by a board followed by a thin cut, etc.  It can get time consuming and can result in some unintended veneer ;D. 
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Ron Wenrich

If your cant or log has movement, flipping helps, but doesn't completely relieve the problem.  When the cant moves, you will get a board that is normally thicker in the middle than in the ends.  That usually isn't much of a problem because the amount isn't all that much.  Some species are worse than others.  That's why most folks don't live saw.

But, when you get to the opposite side, you will have a cant that is heavier on the ends than in the middle.  Again, this may not be a great deal.  But, a shim cut should be used to square up the face of the log.  Otherwise, the first board will be thin in the middle and thick on the ends.  Not a big deal to some people, but they'll rake you over the coals if you send a lot of it to a wholesaler.

I've worked those heart checks where I've gotten them out in a 1x6.  It takes a lot of turning, and you keep on putting that check on the corner of a board.  When it gets beyond the corner, then turn down.  After you've made a cant, you're basically resawing.

I've always wondered how you guys with the swingers handle log stress.  I would think that with the swinger you could edge off some of the defect. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

sigidi

Ron with log tension, I've found the only thing to do is 're-surface' the log after taking the layer off; you keep all the rails same height and keeping the blade horizontal you skim back over the log from left to right taking 3-5" bites. Normally the middle of the log gets cut more and the ends over the supports doesn't get cut at all. This gives a 'new' reference deck to lower for the next layer.

Often I find the top 1/3 of the log may show a bit of tension and typically I will only skim if I see tell-tale sawmarks on the cut face or, I'll skim just before I change to do deep vertical cuts through the mid 1/3, by skimming before the deep verticals I can keep a regular width for the mid 1/3. Often mid 1/3 is where I feel the worst happens (if the stick is a bit thicker in the middle say 53mm instead of 50mm, that's not as serious as if it's say 160mm instead of 150mm), so I find when I get about half way across and the log has 'humped' up the last few boards may end up being over sized in the middle. If again I see the tell-tale sawmarks, I'll stop and raise the rails back to the 'start point' for that layer, skim what remains from the previous layer, then drop back to the deck I was cutting before, this keeps the timber a fairly constant dimension along it's length. The bottom 1/3 doesn't give me as much hassle as I have a pair of wedges placed midway which I slide in to just hold after I finish the mid 1/3 this way the log can't 'drop' in the guts while I'm going through the bottom 1/3. Having said all this though Ron, it's not like this for every log, more often it is for some pieces which end up being used young (so therefore small in diameter) and when the timber is wanted to be longer than 10' or so.

It may take a little longer to slice a log up this way as compared to a conventional fixed site mill, but I can keep the timber within grading tolerances this way, without needing to re-saw once I slice it off.
Always willing to help - Allan

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