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Questions about clearing land -- for charity!

Started by KarateGirl258, March 20, 2010, 10:41:47 AM

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KarateGirl258

Hi all!

I've been reading through some of the threads in here, and it seems like you guys have a ton of experience and know-how. I, on the contrary, know *nothing* about this stuff, so if I say anything really dumb please feel free to lay on the mockery.   ;D

The scoop:

I've recently incorporated a horse rescue, and I need to clear some land for pasture. I have about an acre and a third that's been designated as "poorly drained wetlands", which apparently means I can cut the trees but I have to leave the roots. The trees that have to go are a mix of soft and hard wood, the typical new england mix.

The questions:

1. Do I really have to leave the roots in the ground? I've been reading about "root rot" on the forum here and it sounds awful for pastures.

1a. If I have to leave the roots in, how should I go about stumping? Can I dump clean fill on top and then put grass in?

1b. If I can take the roots out, I assume I can get someone in with a big thingamajig to yank them out?  :)

2. (I'm asking this question as opinion, not to solicit help) As loggers, if someone asked you to help out for charity, would you consider clearing someone's land if they said you could take any wood you wanted, and they could give you a tax receipt for your time? I'm just wondering if it's even worth my while to post something on craigslist. If people wouldn't be interested then I won't bother and will make friends and family do it.   :D

3. Once land is cleared, do people even use clean fill to get rid of the "wetlands" aspect? I assume it was designated as such because in the springtime we have a few puddles that take a week or so to dry up. It's not underwater or anything like that. There are some deep grooves that hold a bit of water.

I'm sure there are more questions I should be asking, but as mentioned, I'm a complete newbie here. Thanks a ton for reading this far, and more thanks if you take the time to post answers! 

8)

Ron Scott

You should have your local conservation district, extension forester, or a professional consulting look at your specific situation and soils for an on site recommendation. If the area is classified as wetlands and hydric soils, local and state permits may be required for filling in the wetlands.

Also, a local professional forester may be able to help you with a contact for the land clearing and fill as a charity donation.
~Ron

Jeff

If you have been classified as a wetland, you really, REALLY want to make sure you get all your ducks and permits in a row. Actually, if you got wetland and ducks, be ready to be told the ducks win and are free to do what ever they want on the land where as you may not.

Disturbing designated wetlands without all the required permits can cost you time and money. Time as in the clink sort of time in drastic cases and money in fines and reparation.

Listen to Ron. I'm just here to echo, cause Ron is the ditto guy.


Side note,  You better figure family and friends because odds are, unless you're someone special or the kind of person that might regularly get struck by lightning while out playing with the ducks, no one is going to donate land clearing in this economy. It's just too expensive.
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timberfaller390

I ditto the first answers. After you get everything lined up for the state and county to tell you it is okay to clear and fill get ready to lay down some money. Clearing land for pasture is time consuming and expensive. It will take alot to get everything sedded and fertilized for a good pasture to be established. By the way less than 2 acres is not much grass for a horse rescue program. It should carry one horse okay but more than that and they will have it eat down to the dirt and if the area is already wet then your horses are going to be living in a mud hole.
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SwampDonkey

Quote from: KarateGirl258 on March 20, 2010, 10:41:47 AM
please feel free to lay on the mockery.   ;D

Might want to start a pig rescue program instead. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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bill m

Where in N.E. are you? If you can get permission from the local conservation commission to turn this into pasture ask around there are good people who will donate time to help with your project. As for the tree clearing most loggers will not do anything with the brush/slash. The stumps could be ground up with a stump grinder just to ground level, the roots would stay in the ground and you could mow over them.
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Jeff

Bill M, you can't do that with horses. You have to remove the stumps and the roots for safety considerations.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

bill m

OK , that makes sense. I thought if the site was flat and all roots were underground you could just grind the part of the stump that was above ground and leave the grindings to compost and turn back to soil.
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Banjo picker

In your post you stated that the 1 1/3 acre was in the wetland class...maybe you have other land that is not in this classification...but if the 1 1/3 acre is all you got the man from Georgia has hit the nail on the head...you don't have enough ground to worry about pasture...sorry....Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

jmc0780

What state are you in? In NH there is the UNH coop ext, they would be a good place to start for advice or if you aren't in nh you might have something similar in your state. They have foresters as well as other agi gurus.

I'm working on a lot right now for the same reasons, I'm just doing the cutting, but the owner wants to plant a field there. He plans on using an excavator to remove the stumps then plant and I'm sure he'll need some loam on top as well and lots fertiliser. It's also very wet, not wetlands but close.

The rotting stumps/roots are definitely not good, rotting wood sucks most of the nitrogen out of the soil. I suppose with enough fertiliser you could over come it but that might cost more than yanking them? It may cause other issues too?

I would say for sure that pulling them is your best bet, but if you can't you could cut them as close to the ground as possible and put some fill in and try to keep it well fertilised. However, my guess is that it will still be wet unless the water can be and is diverted?


John Mc

Quote from: KarateGirl258 on March 20, 2010, 10:41:47 AM
2. (I'm asking this question as opinion, not to solicit help) As loggers, if someone asked you to help out for charity, would you consider clearing someone's land if they said you could take any wood you wanted, and they could give you a tax receipt for your time?

I don't believe the donation of labor is tax deductible, but you may want to check with an accountant or tax expert.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

pasbuild

In my neck of the woods if your property is  zoned agi. you can clear it but you can't fill it if it is deemed wet lands.
If it can't be nailed or glued then screw it

WDH

You can get a permit to clear and fill the wetland, but you will have to purchase wetland mitigation credit to do it.  Wetland mitigation credits are incredibly expensive and would be totally prohibitive for only creating pasture land.
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scsmith42

I can't speak to the local wetlands issues, however for horse pastures, although you can leave some roots you really need to remove the stumps.

The reason why is that as the stumps rot over time, they will leave a cavity that can break a horse's leg.
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captain_crunch

After being around horses all my life why would you cut a tree to save a horse ::) ::) Animal rescures don't have a good rep out west.
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thecfarm

Karategirl258,Welcome to the forum.On my Maine land If I was to stump my land I would find rocks as big as a refrigerator to peas size.You would have to get rid of these too,if you have rocks in your area.What ever you do clear and reseed to grass,I think you would have to keep horses off it until the grass really took off. Good luck with your horse rescue program.
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timberfaller390

Quote from: captain_crunch on March 21, 2010, 12:39:58 AM
After being around horses all my life why would you cut a tree to save a horse ::) ::) Animal rescures don't have a good rep out west.
After 10 years of shoeing horses for a living, I can say this: there is a need for horse rescue programs. I have seen horses kept in everything from million dollar stables to a thoroughbred gelding who was kept under a guys porch. Some horses need to be "rescued" and adopted out, they will make great animals for someone and others the most humane thing is to be euthanized. I have worked on horses for local rescue programs and if it is done right provides a valuable servivce for the animals. If I had to cut 10 acres of trees to save the life of one good horse I would do it in a heartbeat. I guess some people don't see horses as the inteligent animals that they are or have never been around a good horse. Dealing with a bunch of outlaw cayuses would leave a bad taste in your mouth if thats all you have been around. karategirl as myself and banjopicker have said , if you have more land then great but if the 1 1/3 acre is all then living conditions will be far less than desireable. I commend you on your efforts.
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ErikC

  Just another opinion from a long time horseshoer, and horse owner. Horses need room, that isn't enough for more than a few, unless they are fed and cleaned up after all the time. Leaving stumps is sure to cause injuries, especially if there are several horses in there, they will get to roughhousing and then get hurt. Even if you grind them rotting roots can leave dangerous holes that aren't seen until they cave in and --SNAP--dead horse :( If the stumps are small, and the roots also would be, I think they could be ground just fine though.
  The comment about rescues not having a good rep out west is true, but the need for someone to look after unwanted or neglected horses is real. I am probably not going to make friends when I say this, but if the laws about selling for slaughter were different we would have a lot less problem, at least here in CA. But that is the fact. I hope you can find a way to make it work, and if you do I hope you can help a few nice horses to a better life. :)
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timberfaller390

Quote from: ErikC on March 21, 2010, 07:42:06 PM
   I am probably not going to make friends when I say this, but if the laws about selling for slaughter were different we would have a lot less problem, at least here in CA. But that is the fact.
Erik, you are so right. The shutting down of the slaughter houses has been the cause of ALOT of unwanted and useless horses (the type I said was more humane to euthanize) and has caused the price of good horses to fall drasticly. People don't want to care for the very old or crippled horses and they just let them suffer cause no one wants the financial responcebility of properly caring for them. Keeping bad horses/horese with poor genitics will only cause more of the same type of horses to be bred.
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stonebroke

Quote from: ErikC on March 21, 2010, 07:42:06 PM

  The comment about rescues not having a good rep out west is true, but the need for someone to look after unwanted or neglected horses is real. I am probably not going to make friends when I say this, but if the laws about selling for slaughter were different we would have a lot less problem, at least here in CA. But that is the fact. I hope you can find a way to make it work, and if you do I hope you can help a few nice horses to a better life. :)

I agree with you one hundred percent. Even though I do not presently own any horses, I have seen the problem that the horse slaughter ban has resulted in. I hear that down south people are so desperate that they are just turning them loose. Around here there are people that take on much more then they expect and it ends up as a disaster. It is affecting the regular horse business too. Horses are livestock and should be treated as such. If you want to have a horse and never put it down, you should have the resources to that care for it for along time. Which means a lot of money. Anything less is irresponsible.

Stonebroke


bl73

Quote from: ErikC on March 21, 2010, 07:42:06 PM
 
  The comment about rescues not having a good rep out west is true, but the need for someone to look after unwanted or neglected horses is real. I am probably not going to make friends when I say this, but if the laws about selling for slaughter were different we would have a lot less problem, at least here in CA. But that is the fact. I hope you can find a way to make it work, and if you do I hope you can help a few nice horses to a better life. :)



I agree with this completely

SwampDonkey

One other thing going on I see is someone buys a horse and someone else looks after it, off site somewhere. Why own a horse? "Because mommy said I could have one".  And soon the novelty wears off and the horse is forgotten as long as some one is paid to look after the horse. Then some day the payments stop for upkeep and then who pays the bills?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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KarateGirl258

My my, you guys have provided fantastic insight and information. So first of all, thank you to all who have taken the time to reply. Much appreciated.

I also understand the concern about the land size. I need about 1 1/3 acres cleared to make about 2 acres of pasture. This will be for one horse. The plan is to rescue him/her from the kill pen, rehab it, and hopefully place it in a "forever home". Then on to the next one. If no forever home can be found, then we will keep raising the funds to support it and other horse rescues in our area. I know it's not much, but it's the best I can do with what I have.

It's true what you guys are saying about the flood of horses in the market. However, the vast (and I mean vast) majority of them are sound, healthy (or could be under proper care) and young. Have you guys heard of the PMU horse market? THAT is what's causing a lot of the problem. If you know of anyone on Premarin or Prempro or some such, please tell them to look into it and what has to happen in order for this drug to be created. I doubt they know it's made with the urine of pregnant mares kept in concentration-camp conditions (literally). The urine is collected to make the drugs, and the babies are sent to feed lots when they're way too young to be away from their moms, fattened up and sent to slaughter. And then when the mares can no longer reproduce, they're sent to slaughter too. It's creating a flood of thousands of horses every year that rescues can't keep up with.

Anyway, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm horrified, disgusted, and determined to do whatever I can before I die so I can go to my grave knowing I tried to make a difference.   :)

So back to the trees. It seems like most of us agree on the following:

a) the roots have to come out because they will pose a hazard to the health of my adoptees,
b) I need to look into contacting my local conservation commission to declassify my land as 'wetland' (seriously, we're talking a couple of puddles after a rain that dry up within a few hours in the summer... it's ridiculous), or as jimc suggested, the UNH coop (thank you for that advice since yes, I am in NH)  :)
c) hopefully there's someone in my area like captain_crunch who will help out because I'm saving horses   ;D    although I need to look into the tax-deductibility of donated time
d) If I'm even able to get this going, I should expect refrigerator sized rocks and other obstacles which might kill us in the water anyway (thank you, thecfarm, for the welcome and the head's up).

I certainly have my work cut out for me. The pig rescue is starting to sound appealing.   :D    It is sad about cutting the trees, as one poster said, and I and my family do love them. But like I said to my husband, I'm sure our would-have-been rescue horse would be thrilled we're happy with our trees as he's being led to the kill box. Anyway, thanks again to all for your advice and support. It really does help as I try to get this project underway and am often feeling overwhelmed and hopeless.

-KarateGirl


JimTwoSticks

Seems like your initial assessment was just remove the trees and you'll be good. Have you ever plowed a field full of roots and rocks?
Having never seen the small would-be pasture I don't know what plants are there but I'll bet it doesn't have the requisite plants necessary for proper horse nutrition. Get ready to supplement his/her diet.
Keep in mind the plants that will be fine for cattle are not the same as for horses. Many common plants are poisonous to horses (including red maple....).
With regard to your "wetland" -
You stated "Once land is cleared, do people even use clean fill to get rid of the "wetlands" aspect? I assume it was designated as such because in the springtime we have a few puddles that take a week or so to dry up. It's not underwater or anything like that. There are some deep grooves that hold a bit of water."
A two acre (total) pasture will be a mudhole in the spring even with one horse if it holds water...any water. Unless it's a small pond with a defined bank that you keep the animals away from.

Good luck getting it cleared.

stonebroke

Farmers can do pretty much any thing to agricultural wetland except fill it. You can clear it ,plow it, seed it, pick rock ,clean the ditches(if any) but you cannot haul in anything. What agency made the determination? Was it  Your Town ,your state, the NRCS or the FSA.They all have different indicators of what a wetland is.

Stonebroke

Banjo picker

Quote from: KarateGirl258 on March 22, 2010, 01:56:35 PM
This will be for one horse. The plan is to rescue him/her from the kill pen, rehab it, and hopefully place it in a "forever home".

I don't know where you are located but the horse will have to leave the country to be killed....Try taking one into Canada an see what it will cost you .....They will charge you such a tarrif to get across the border that it will be cost prevenative. to take there to kill....Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

bl73

Quote from: KarateGirl258 on March 22, 2010, 01:56:35 PM


I also understand the concern about the land size. I need about 1 1/3 acres cleared to make about 2 acres of pasture. This will be for one horse. The plan is to rescue him/her from the kill pen, rehab it, and hopefully place it in a "forever home". Then on to the next one. If no forever home can be found, then we will keep raising the funds to support it and other horse rescues in our area. I know it's not much, but it's the best I can do with what I have.


-KarateGirl



are you clearing the total area the horse will be in? I always keep at least on horse at the house, I have my pasture and an acre of pines, the horse rather stay in the pines most times rather than the shelter. One option to look at for clearing the land is to look into some of your excavation companies and pitch them your rescue operation, I know alot companies out this way would help. Good luck to you hope everything works out for the best.

ErikC

 I am somewhat familiar with the PMU situation. I shoe a handful that came from that situation as foals, and some retired mares.  All black and white paints for some reason. The foals turned out nice, the mares I dealt with were outlaws. Anyway, just because a horse is sound and healthy doesn't make him a good horse to keep around 20-30 years, in my opinion. He has to do something worthwhile, even if it's to be a pet for someone. This is my standard response to the " they all deserve to live" attitude. Why not kill a useless horse to feed some good dogs? Or endangered carnivores at a zoo? Or people who want to eat horse meat? Are any of these lives not worthwhile as well? I can tell you for a fact many of these horses are dangerous to be around, and money could be better spent elsewhere. If you want to rescue a horse, pick one that has earned it some way, that's all. 
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captain_crunch

People who have NO bussiness owning a horse or any animal are the problem saveing a starving animal is just normal thing to do. But as far as saveing one from Slaughter (which is illeagle in US) is like climbing up a tree to stop logging >:( >:( >:(
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timberfaller390

I know several draft horse breeders that sell preg. mare urine for that purpose but thier horses are niehter outlaws nor mis treated. They are all working horses and live at some VERY nice farms. They mostly pull vis-a-vis at weddings when they are not in foal or raising a colt.
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bl73

I've come across only a couple rescue horses that were safe, most of those horses slated for the ride to Canada were meant to be there because they were unsafe to be around. We use to have boarder horses and it got to the point where one family sent money but they had not been to the barn in about 5 years, those were our rescues. Taking on a horse is huge, the cost of food, grain, vet bills, farrier fees, stall upkeep, pasture upkeep, the added homeowners insurance cost, truck and trailer upkeep, all of the tack you'll need, not to mention the fencing upkeep, and these are just the basics.

flibob

You might try a local soil consultant before you get the government involved.  They can advise on how to legally Not get the government involved. I think the cost would be minimal or nothing for a cause like yours. 
The ranch is so big and I'm such a little cowboy

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