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Can you make money from a mill ?

Started by flanajb, March 13, 2010, 01:52:53 PM

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flanajb

This might sound like a very stupid question, but I am locked in a bitter dispute with the Wife over me wanting to buy a Lucas / Peterson Mill.  I have been arguing that you can make money from one, by selling green oak to Landscapers / Builders ...

She does not think you can.

Would be interested to hear the experiences from those of you with first hand experience of milling ?

Thanks

Ron Wenrich

That isn't a stupid question.  But, you need to set down and write out your business plan.  Thinking you can make money and actually making money can be 2 different animals.

Using a swing mill opens up some avenues that you can't take with a stationary or a band mill.  However, it may limit you in other areas.  You need to find the market and then address it with what sort of equipment you need. 

I run a stationary circle mill.  My markets are wholesale lumber dealers.  We do mainly trailerload lots and our clients include export markets, casket companies, railroad ties, panel makers, furniture plants, and pallet companies.  If the local builders want the lumber, I'll cut it; but, I'm not chasing them for orders.

We don't do much custom cutting.  Our process is to get the logs in, separate those logs for markets, saw what is profitable, and get it out the door ASAP.  The swing mill's business plan is going to look very much different from ours. 

When you write your plan, you have to know where your logs are coming from, and if you'll be buying them, how much are you going to pay.  Don't count on free logs as a resource.  Look at them as gifts.

Figure out your product.  If its green lumber, you have a limited market.  If you have kilns and dry it, then your markets expand.  If you don't want to market lumber, then you have to market your service.  Who needs it and how big is that market?  How much competition.

If you can't convince your wife, you're going to have an uphill drag.  Show her that your a businessman by giving her the plan, not the argument.   ;)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

D Hagens

 
I'm sure like with anything you can make money at it if you put your time and thoughts to it.
I think that convincing your wife with a plan is a start as your wife should be part of your plans.
Have you convinced yourself that you can make money at it?
I plan to make money when I get a mill but my main focus is about the enjoyment of sawing my own wood to build a cabin.
From what I've read here on the forum is that most people make money with a good plan that's been thought out well.

Cedarman

You might check with some mills and some loggers and see if there are any oversize logs that they do not want to saw.  This may be a possible thing to do.
I can remember a woods not too far from me that had several hundred nice white oaks. The problem was that most were doubles with about a 4 to 6 foot big butt that was cut off and left at the logging site.  Huge amount of clear lumber going to waste because of no good way to get it out of the log.  You might check with loggers and see if they come across much of that stuff.  Your lumber would be short, but it would be clear and wide. Just a couple of things I would check out to see if there is opportunity there.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Kelvin

An easy way to figure out who is right is get the logs you are planning on cutting and hire someone to cut them for you to begin with, then try to sell them.  That is wear the rubber hits the road.  you will learn a lot and your cost will be much lower.  tons of guys out there custom sawing for very little money, hire them for starters and see what you find out.
KP

Ron Wenrich

For a point of reference, I believe flanajb comes from the UK.  I don't know if it makes much difference, but some of the remedies might not be the same.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ladylake

I alway find this kind of funny, you can go out and buy a new car, truck, boat, fishhouse,4 wheeler etc which has no chance of making money but you can't buy a mill which will make some for sure not to mention the nice tax deductions.   Steve

  And I forgot to mention gambling,  you go there and give a boat load of money just to get %#@#%^ off, at least with a mill you can have some fun with it.   
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

jgarrett

 That is very true,I had that same thought the other day.I have been going back and forth for months about whether to drop 7 or 8k on a bandmill.But I have never hesitated to buy several 4 wheelers,motorcycles,and boats none of which I even have anymore. And obvioulsy they never even had a chance of making me a dime. 

sigidi

Flanajb, you are in trouble if Wifey isn't on board :( She is gonna be your best customer/advocate. As others have said do some planning.

Let us know where you are, that may help a lot in the answers fella's can give. I can give you some real life facts based on milling here in Aus, but if you are tossing up between a Peterson and a Lucas, I suspect you aren't here in Aus I say that, as Peterson just doesn't seem to have the market penetration here.

A good thing would be to go and price timber, rough sawn green timber, would be a starting point. This is the first product you can push out, if you can make $'s on it then you will certainly make $'s on anything else you value add, like seasoned, dressed timber etc.

I have no doubt I've made money with my mill. Every hour it runs I'm on $100,000AU pa the biggest problem I have found is securing a log supply, no point being on a nice fat wage if the machine runs 5 days in 7 weeks :( The mill has to run to make money and you need logs for the mill to run. I've found I can sell every stick of timber I can cut - selling it isn't the problem, for me getting the log is...

Remember also once you buy a mill, you have an asset which you have the ability to use to make money, but if that doesn't work you can sell the asset...
Always willing to help - Allan

Tom

Sigidi,
If the logs are slim, quit grinding them up into hamburger and start slicing steaks and packaging tenderloin. :D

There is usually that one board in a log that is worth a lot of money and we, me included many times, throw it in with the rest of the saw fodder.

It makes you go inside and market instead of standing in the saw-shed, sawing, but the bottom line can be easier to reach.  Sell Crotch-wood panels, burls, curly grain and tiger grain instead of competing with the big mills in 4 x 2's

Not lecturing, just saw a chance to run my mouth.  :D


sigidi

Quote from: Tom on March 13, 2010, 05:36:58 PM
Sigidi,
If the logs are slim, quit grinding them up into hamburger and start slicing steaks and packaging tenderloin. :D

There is usually that one board in a log that is worth a lot of money and we, me included many times, throw it in with the rest of the saw fodder.

It makes you go inside and market instead of standing in the saw-shed, sawing, but the bottom line can be easier to reach.  Sell Crotch-wood panels, burls, curly grain and tiger grain instead of competing with the big mills in 4 x 2's

Not lecturing, just saw a chance to run my mouth.  :D



Ah Tom, no lecture landed here mate ;) and I don't reckon you where running ya mouth either. You must have known me in a previous life as your example was put in terms I can really understand...

I'm wearing a T-Shirt which says "meat is murder - delicious, tasty murder"

Always willing to help - Allan

flanajb

Sorry Fellas, I am based in the UK.

Timber here in England is expensive.  For example, a 1 metre length of 10" Oak Feather Edge will cost around £3.00 eg $4.5 AUD

Ron Wenrich

But, that is dry stock.  How much for green stock like you're talking about cutting? 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

sigidi

Quote from: flanajb on March 13, 2010, 06:13:27 PM
Sorry Fellas, I am based in the UK.

Timber here in England is expensive.  For example, a 1 metre length of 10" Oak Feather Edge will cost around £3.00 eg $4.5 AUD

I am not sure what feather edge means, but will take a guess that it is not dressed all round? and also taking a guess that ya talkin about a 1"x10" piece of timber? If the size guess is right,(and Aussie dollar conversion) then you are only looking at $720AU per cubic metre. Down here that is cheap our landscape grade timber typically goes around $750 per cubic metre, our structural timber is around the $1,300 - $2,000 per cubic metre depending on dimension and demand. When I go out and do a mobile job the customer gets their timber for a maximum of $500 per cubic metre or quite often less, regardless of landscape or construction grade. Slabs, the big wide bark to bark pieces start at $2,000 per cubic metre and you can expect to pay up to $4,000 per cubic metre for slabs over 1m (3'4") wide, that's not just in my local area that is pretty much country wide.

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on March 13, 2010, 08:00:55 PM
But, that is dry stock.  How much for green stock like you're talking about cutting? 

As Ron said is your example seasoned timber or green?
Always willing to help - Allan

flanajb

With regards to weather the timber is green or dry, to be honest I am not sure.  Maybe an educational lesson here would be very useful.

eg what do people use fresh cut sawn timber (green) for and air dried for.  Would give me a good idea of what stuff you can sell straight away and what stuff needs to be air dried for 1-2 years requiring storage ?

This is a very good forum and I do really appreciate all of the constructive replies to my posts!

sigidi

Down here we use green rough sawn structural timber for bearers joists, rafters battens, posts. I used it for wall framing also - not sure if the stuff you buy has been dried a bit. Typically decking has had a degree of drying, but isn't totally dry, but tongue and groove flooring is down to around 12% moisture. Architrave, skirting, moldings door jams are all kiln dried so they are very stable and not subject to any further shrinkage. Also the big wide slabs need to be dry before scribing in to place for a kitchen bench top or the like.

We also use rough sawn green lumber for all our landscaping and fencing type stuff, so fence palings, fence rails, fencing posts, sleepers etc.
Always willing to help - Allan

Ron Wenrich

When the lumber dries, it will have dimensional changes.  If that isn't very important, then you can use the lumber green.  Pallets use green lumber as do certain rough construction, including landscaping and fencing.  

But, when you get to things like furniture, flooring, and finish products, then you'll need dry material.  

Most often its the outermost part of the log that is put into dried stock.  It has fewer defects and has a higher value.  When you start hitting more defects, the value drops.  That's when you start making the low grade construction and pallet wood.

If I was looking at a swing mill, I'd be looking at a slabber attachment.  Like Tom said, there's lots of money in the crotch wood.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

flanajb

Thanks.  That was what I was thinking. 

So one thing you could do is to supply landscapers with sleepers and posts without having to dry them first, whilst you could on the side stock pile a load of 6"/8" which can air dry ready for flooring in a year or 2 ?

Just seems like such a great piece of kit.

I am going to do some research this week and hopefully make a decision.

1. Will ring around local tree surgeons to find out what they do with their large tree trunks.
2. Will speak with local landscapers to see what price they pay for sleepers and fence posts.

Any others you can think of.  I have to do this so that I can hopefully convince the Wife that my idea has potential.

ladylake

 For flooring you need to kiln dry to 6 to 8 %.  I like to air dry mine down to 12 - 14% then kiln dry it.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Dan_Shade

you can make money from a mill.

you will probably, at a minimum, need to saw 100,000 BF to break even for the mill cost, and probably several more thousand BF to pay for your auxillary equipment (cant hooks/winches/arches/etc...)

Also, be prepared for long days of exhausting manual labor while running a manual mill.

So yes, you can make money from a mill, but it sure isn't easy money
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

ladylake


  Are you thinking of quitting your job and just miiling or keeping your job and milling part time? I'd for sure do the part time milling for a while and see how it goes.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

flanajb

Plan is to run it alongside my full time job.  Which I suspect would work ok for starters

ladylake

  Sounds like a good plan, if business gets too good then go full time.   steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Magicman

And, as you stated in your OP, the wife would be happy also..... smiley_love

Happy Wife......Happy Life..... :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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Quote from: flanajb on March 13, 2010, 01:52:53 PM
This might sound like a very stupid question, but I am locked in a bitter dispute with the Wife over me wanting to buy a Lucas / Peterson Mill.  I have been arguing that you can make money from one, by selling green oak to Landscapers / Builders ...

She does not think you can.

Would be interested to hear the experiences from those of you with first hand experience of milling ?

Thanks

Not taking the initial purchase price of the mill into consideration, I have made enough money to keep the mill running, buy blades, gas, and few other things like a winch, maintenance on the tractors,  and stock pile some lumber and pay for having some of it dried for my own use.

Maybe you could find a Wifey that likes wood working hobbies ;D

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