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Pre-commercial Thinning

Started by VT_Forestry, March 03, 2010, 02:33:54 PM

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VT_Forestry

The weather finally cooperated enough this past week to get out and do some pre-commercial thinning.  This area was an old sandpit that was filled in and replanted in 2003.  We had a significant amount of volunteer loblolly come in, some areas had close to 5000 trees/acre.

We start off with the Franklin Enviro-Shredder :)





Fecon mulching head makes a nice path





From here we'll go in with brushcutters and trim trees until we reach our target trees/acre, but after driving a few rows with that big green machine, it'll be awfully tough to look at that FS450 in the same way  :D
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Need any help? I'll gladly bring my FS550 down. :)




Yours truly.

Sounds like some fast cutting in that density. Cream. ;D

Your machine used for the safety trails? or the work strips?

A dozen good cutters on a job site can cut 50 acres a week, and thicker than that. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

treefarmer87

that franklin does a good job making roads thats some thick pine
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SwampDonkey

Nothing to sneeze at for density, but should see jack pine after fire. A solid wall. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

The results look very good.  Even without additional thinning you have made great progress.  Loblolly expresses individual dominance, so the stronger trees will take over and do pretty well as is.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

rick f

Swamp, you got that right Jack pine and Jack fir. There places around here that a rabbit fears to go cause it's so thick. Hunting season you go around these as you can't bust your way through.

Nice picture though keep them coming.
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Rick Alger

Swamp donkey,

Will that thinning saw do six inch popple?

tonich

VT_Forestry,
Looks OK to me!  8)

Though, next time you might consider the guy from New Brunswick for the job.  ;D

Jeb

VT

Looks good to me. How long do you think it would tak to drive that thing to Nottoway County?!  ;D  I've got a similar situation to deal with.

--Jeb

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Rick Alger on March 03, 2010, 09:28:53 PM
Swamp donkey,

Will that thinning saw do six inch popple?

Yes, I've cut many. In those stands the density won't be thick unless there is a secondary layer of fir or hardwood in under. I usually don't thin popple unless it's in the mix. It thins itself quickly over 10 years. The site in my picture had a lot of them back away from the road, but it was mixed with fir and maple. Cut six inch fir to, but the fir is tougher wood (especially the slow growth ones), need sharp blades. Otherwise you'll tear out a drive shaft or angle gear if you start using your saw like a scythe. But usually after you have cut 25 acres on a new saw. Some guys just never learn to keep the blades sharp, your way ahead in the end. ;D

As to thinning by machine, we never had good results up here. A good man with a saw will achieve better results. What we had in those trails was 2 foot tall spears sticking up and having to walk through hoping not to fall and empale a rib. Plus the cost to the contractor is reduced. Up here the rates are set by DNR based on density, so there is no by the hour charges from the contractor. They were to be used on the real thick sites, but what happened is they would only go down the light paths where the skid trails were. Then they made the thinning contractor, a different contractor on the job, measure all those trails out of his area, and do it for nothing. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

Quote from: Jeb on March 04, 2010, 01:02:42 AM
VT

Looks good to me. How long do you think it would tak to drive that thing to Nottoway County?!  ;D  I've got a similar situation to deal with.

--Jeb

Haha it might take awhile, she's a little cagey at top speed (15mph!)

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 03, 2010, 03:21:09 PM

Your machine used for the safety trails? or the work strips?


We use it for the work strips, similar to how you would do a conventional thinning.  Take out a strip then trim in between.

I'll see if I can get some pictures loaded today after running the brushcutters through there...headed back out now :)  Any and all that want to help are more than welcome!
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Well if I was 700 miles closer, I'd be there at 6:30 am tomorrow morning. Show ya how to cut some ground. :D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

I was finally able to get in and finish brushcutting...got the pictures to prove it :)

We were aiming for 500 TPA...some areas are a little more, some a little less.  Had some fusiform in the stand so the thinner areas were where those infected trees were cut out.  These pictures were taken from the top of a Prentice loader (got a harvest going on right next to this stand)...in the flat land on the coast we don't have many hills so you gotta do what you can to get a good view of stuff :)

started with this....



as it stands now...



before again...



and after...

Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Looks good, wish I was there to help.  :)

You have as much snow in the bush as we do. :D

Not concerned it's a little thin for wet snow load? ;)

Now what I wanna know is the production. How much and how long and how many involved? Because if that's 5 acres I could have done it in one week and only a saw and been on my way home Friday noon. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 11, 2010, 07:32:50 AM
Looks good, wish I was there to help.  :)

You have as much snow in the bush as we do. :D

Not concerned it's a little thin for wet snow load? ;)

Now what I wanna know is the production. How much and how long and how many involved? Because if that's 5 acres I could have done it in one week and only a saw and been on my way home Friday noon. :D


The snow was a little unexpected for this area, but the trees seemed to handle it well :)

Production wasn't bad, this was a really clean stand and was easy to cut out.  All tallied up, 2 of us spent about a week on it.  We tend to move a little slower because once we get a tree on the ground we trim most of the branches off to help break them down faster and for aesthetics.  Being in the middle of a municipal park, this stand had to be made to look pretty  :D  Probably not as efficient as what can be done in other areas, but here in the city we do what we can   :D
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

WDH

VT,

Good job on that PCT (pre-commercial thin).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

VT_Forestry

Quote from: WDH on March 11, 2010, 08:52:33 AM
VT,

Good job on that PCT (pre-commercial thin).

Thank you sir...it was the first one that I've really been involved in and so far so good!
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Well you know how some of us more senior fellas like to torment and team.  ;D But, I'd say you did good with all the extra bucking up involved.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DirtForester

That is really nice and effective work.  I congratulate you.  It is getting harder and harder to convince landowners to do this type of pre-commercial work.
If it's a good tree, grow it!
www.smithandwessonforums.com

junglejim

Looks nice. We do a lot of "pct" up here in north Idaho that i wished we had a machine like that. Except for all the hills, stumps, and rocks that we have out here.

VT_Forestry

Quote from: DirtForester on March 26, 2010, 01:19:11 PM
That is really nice and effective work.  I congratulate you.  It is getting harder and harder to convince landowners to do this type of pre-commercial work.

Luckily here in VA there are cost-share programs through the southern pine beetle prevention program.  We are able to justify the cost of PCT since we are a local government with clean water as a primary objective, timber production as a secondary one.

Quote from: junglejim on March 27, 2010, 01:45:37 AM
Looks nice. We do a lot of "pct" up here in north Idaho that i wished we had a machine like that. Except for all the hills, stumps, and rocks that we have out here.

Rocks do make a racket when you chew one up...so does old buried skidder cable   :o  :D


Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Quote from: VT_Forestry on March 29, 2010, 03:13:13 PM

Rocks do make a racket when you chew one up...so does old buried skidder cable   :o  :D

Your a true bush whacker now, complaining of rocks and skidder cable.  :D :D ;D Now all ya need to go through is thick plantation with low rate of pay and only first 150 feet real plantation. :D :D  ;D Don't be fooled by road side. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I see there is a group in southern Virginia and North Carolina, serving the Piedmont and Coastal Plain areas doing thinning.

http://www.monroetimberland.com

Maybe you've heard of them. I haven't, I only found this through a web search. At least I don't think there is anyone on the forum at this time affiliated with them.

We do a fair amount of thinning up here in New Brunswick each season. Last year the boss probably had us cut 1700 acres, mostly public lands. I did mark out 40 acres on private woodlots near by home that we cut in August. But, I think over 6000 acres were cut on private woodlots throughout the province.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 05, 2010, 02:49:58 PM
I see there is a group in southern Virginia and North Carolina, serving the Piedmont and Coastal Plain areas doing thinning.

http://www.monroetimberland.com

Maybe you've heard of them. I haven't, I only found this through a web search. At least I don't think there is anyone on the forum at this time affiliated with them.

We do a fair amount of thinning up here in New Brunswick each season. Last year the boss probably had us cut 1700 acres, mostly public lands. I did mark out 40 acres on private woodlots near by home that we cut in August. But, I think over 6000 acres were cut on private woodlots throughout the province.


I hadn't heard of them, I'd be curious to see how much they charge per acre...1700 acres is a LOT of PCT, hats off to you sir  :D
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

It sure don't take long to cut 100 acres with 12-15 fellas mow'n them down.  :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sjfarkas

Those mulchers should be able to cover 3+ acres a day.  I can do 2 a day with my bobcat on steep ground in oak.  I don't think anyone with a saw could compete with that.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

SwampDonkey

No, they couldn't. But, in pre-commercial thinning no machine can do the quality work we require and can do manually. They space the trees too wide for our criteria, we have to leave trees 6 feet apart or a little tighter (1200/acre). They tried machines and had to give up where we work. We do 50 acres a week with a 12-15 man crew, manually. How many weeks it going to take before the manual crew saves enough in cost and gains in production? Each man works his own section, and if both man and machine get the same $$/acre..........well.  What about getting close enough with a machine to cut all those raspberry cane sized whips growing around the stem of the crop trees? We have to cut any woody stems over a foot tall in height. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

Yeah, that machine can definitely roll.  We mowed down that 5 acre stand in probably an hour :)  We have a few hundred acres more to do this year, gettin a little too hot to run the brushcutters but we'll run the machine during the summer since its got A/C and then wait until it cools off in the fall/winter to brushcut again.  We got the shredder stuck yesterday doing a little clearing in some bottomland, I got some pictures around here somewhere I'll have to post them up  ;D

Edit:  Got this picture with my cell phone....had to cut a few trees down and use the winch to get it back out :)


Forester - Newport News Waterworks

DirtForester

Eeak!  A forester's nightmare.
If it's a good tree, grow it!
www.smithandwessonforums.com

stonebroke

Why do you not run chains?

Stonebroke

junglejim

Machines sure are nice for some stuff. But some times you just can't beat a man with a saw in his hand.

sjfarkas

I'm not saying that a machine could do 100% of the work, but I think that it could do about 90%.  You could put a man or two with one machine and haul but.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

Ron Scott

One needs to consider the existing stand condition and the desired future condition as to whether mechanical or hand methods or both should be to do the thinning.
~Ron

VT_Forestry

Quote from: stonebroke on April 09, 2010, 06:15:26 PM
Why do you not run chains?

Stonebroke

We're generally not running around in poor conditions, we were clearing a small area for a hotel sign next to the highway and their timetable didnt' permit us to wait for things to improve.  We thought it might be ok but once it broke through the top layer it was done for.  After we got it out, we went back to cutting with chainsaws, skidded the trees up to higher ground and mulched them there.  Headed back out to finish up today
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Well, tomorrow we have a first aid refresher course. Thinning season is approaching fast. The boss says by May 1st, but I imagine in another week I'll be marking out perimeter and strips. I could be cutting 12 acres or so on my own ground right now, but that's my cash reserve. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

Started in a new area this week...ran the shredder through then started on it with the brushcutter.  This area is natural regen from a hurricane that came through in 2003 and flattened the previous pine stand.  Pretty thick, but I'll take care of that :)




to the left of the photo is the portion that has yet to be thinned, center is where I've done a little work.
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

Yup, looks like thinning.  ;D The machine does a better job then some they used here. We began yesterday and what looks like a lot of aspen actually had a few butternut, ash, basswood, sugar maple. I probably saved about 30 butternut so far. Cut a 1-3/4 acres strip in a day and a half. Starting in on a new strip tomorrow. It's a 14 acre block and I suspect there will be quite few more butternut and hardwood to leave.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

VT_Forestry

I finally got around to putting a few videos on YouTube.


First up is the Franklin Environmental Shredder :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/-gf04REP5ig


Next up is yours truly running the FS450...

http://www.youtube.com/v/MxMEzKJzBs8


Enjoy  :)

P.S. - not sure what I'm doing wrong with the embedding code on Youtube...if anyone knows the error of my ways, suggestions are always welcome ;)
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

Bobus2003

I'm guessing you just leave the trees lay on the ground. You ndon't brush them down or Pile to be burned or chip the wood?

Ianab

QuoteP.S. - not sure what I'm doing wrong with the embedding code on Youtube...if anyone knows the error of my ways, suggestions are always welcome Wink

The forum software automatically embeds YouTube clips. Just past the link into your message.
The youtube embedding code is ignored and just makes the clutter, while the forum software finds the actual address in the code and makes it active.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Jeff

Yep, simply paste the url for the youtube page, not the embed code.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

VT_Forestry

Quote from: Ianab on April 30, 2010, 04:03:05 PM
The forum software automatically embeds YouTube clips. Just past the link into your message.
The youtube embedding code is ignored and just makes the clutter, while the forum software finds the actual address in the code and makes it active.

Ian
Quote from: Jeff on April 30, 2010, 04:40:10 PM
Yep, simply paste the url for the youtube page, not the embed code.

Makes sense!  Thanks, I guess that's why they pay you guys the big bucks :)

Quote from: Bobus2003 on April 30, 2010, 03:01:38 PM
I'm guessing you just leave the trees lay on the ground. You ndon't brush them down or Pile to be burned or chip the wood?

Yes, as of right now we leave the trees laying.  We are trying to decide if it's worth it to try and chip them in the future, but for now they lay.  Being in the city a burn is out of the question unless I feel like looking for a new job after smoking out an international airport  :D
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

SwampDonkey

It's the best for the site to let them rot where they lay anyway. I know some old fart will want to walk among his trees without tripping in slash, but this is forestry not a manicure job. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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