2nd Time Around! Norwood M34 or WMLT28?

vahighlander · February 26, 2010, 09:14:59 PM

Well guys- I'm glad I found this forum! I'm coming back for my 2nd era of sawing. I had a WM Super HD 42hp back in 1999 to 2003 and sawed just about full time with it in the mountains of VA. I did custom sawing for farmers and woodland owners. i also salvaged old barns and beams and resawed tons of chestnut and antique oak. The lure of the almighty dollar and a job offer brought me off my farm back to the city for 7 years. But now me and my much better half are empty nesters and heading back to the mountains to my 117 acre place. I have about 102 acres of upland HW forest (some Hemlock and Virginia pine).

I cried the day I sold my mill and knew I would return to sawing in some form. I'm looking to buy another mill to saw my barns, outbuildings, manage my woodlots and do some part-time custom sawing for this very rural community again. It seems like I had someone calling every night asking me to saw back then. But I only want to saw for others a few days a month now.

Since my first dive into sawing was on a fully loaded super HD- I've never done the manual mill thing. I had remote operators station, setworks, lubemizer, debarker etc etc...it would roll!

But I'm older and smarter now- I financed 70% of that mill back then and I never want to go there again. So I want something with less bells and whistles. My wife and I are committed to cash and carry operations as we move back to finish our homestead out. I have looked at the new Norwood M34 and the WMLT28 with the larger HP and log deck pkg.

Any opinions on these mills for my goals (I know the Norwood is new- but the 2000 is probably comparable). I am 47 years old- in real good fit condition, and love to stay fit. So I'm not scared of the manual approach- but just never done it. I would still like the ability to saw over 1,000 bd ft per day on avg with not too much stress. And if I can saw 1.5 to 2 days per week for my community at approx am avg of 1,000 -1,100 ft per day of good lumber- then I would feel good about not paying so much for a mill this time , and also about sawing by the hour ($35 to $40 per hr.) Looking forward to hearing your advice! Thanks!

Dave Shepard · February 26, 2010, 10:24:20 PM

I don't know how the mills compare, so I'll just welcome you to the Forum.

Magicman · February 26, 2010, 10:50:39 PM

Having no experience with the Norwood, I can only say Welcome to The Forestry Forum, and happy sawing..... 8)

fishpharmer · February 26, 2010, 10:58:05 PM

vahighlander, welcome to the Forestry Forum. Good to have you here. You could click on the sponsor logos on the left side of the screen and pull up specs for each mill. That's really all I can tell you. I do notice that the WM has higher horsepower engines and a longer standard cut length. Price would influence my decision. Seems like I heard someone say you can get a WM owner discount, not sure if that applies to sale prices.

Brucer · February 27, 2010, 02:00:36 AM

I won't offer an opinion as to which is the best mill for you. I do have some comments about manual milling, however ...

I ran someone else's hydraulic WM LT40 for a full sawing season. Never approached 1000 BF/day working on my own, but that was partly due to my bosses way of working.

The following year I bought a manual LT40G28 to work part-time. In less than a year I was working full time, but it was rare to hit 1000 BF/day. I certainly never averaged that. On the other hand, I could handle anything with that mill that a fully hydraulic mill could do -- it just took longer to load and turn the logs.

I think you would be hard-pressed to hit an average of 1000 BF/day with an LT28 or equivalent. You can do it, with optimum sized logs and a helper and an efficient way of dealing with the waste, the product, and the logs. I don't know if you can do it day after day.

I'm not trying to steer you away from the manual mills, just warning that you might be asking too much of the mill and yourself.

bandmiller2 · February 27, 2010, 07:16:12 AM

Welcome highlander,an interesting story.For what you want to spend on a new manual you can find a used hydraulic,and still get plenty of exersize.It boils down to dubbing around for yourself or having the capibility to cut for hire.Your at an age where your past will start to creep up on your body save your back and at least have rudimentary hydraulics.Good luck on what ever you decide,and hang out with us here.Don't overlook a swinger or even rebuilding an old circular mill. Frank C.

Chuck White · February 27, 2010, 01:22:51 PM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum VaHighlander! This is a wonderful place to hang out, when not sawing.
Lots of good info and people here!
Good point Frank!
I was going to say just about the same thing.
I bought my used hydraulic mill for 15K, and at that time, a new "like" mill was over 26K. So for a little over ½, I got a good reliable mill and I'm very well pleased with it!
I'm happy when we hit 1,000 bf, sawing 1" lumber in a days time. Sawing a combo of 1" and 2", we regularly reach 1,200 and once in a while even 1,500 bf!
All of our sawing is done "mobile"!

The only mills I've been around have been Wood-Mizer and I know that their after sale service is excellent. If you have a problem with a WM, those guys will make time to talk you through getting it back in operation.
Never been around Norwood mills, but like most mills I've heard of, they've got to be good or they wouldn't be in business.
Both of the above mills are sponsors here on Forestry Forum.

taschmidretired · February 27, 2010, 04:11:19 PM

I actually wrote a song called "Second Time Around"

Hey You Guys, VAhighlander said he wants to saw manually!!!! I've got to admit, the story is usally reversed.

I just think you should look around a little more before making your final choice. I heard there is a strong, reputable, reliable mill out there.

Let's see now, ummm,...... I think it is called a T A Schmid. OK ! I can't resist!

Seriously Vahighlander, there are some pretty good mills out there along with the ones you mentioned. Take a look at that Boardwalk mill.

Stay Thirsty My Friend taschmidretired

vahighlander · February 27, 2010, 05:56:24 PM

Thanks guys. Yep -its reversed- really because I absolutely want to pay cash for this one. I appreciate the advice and know I will miss my hydraulics, but my thinking was also less to go wrong- less systems, no computers etc....but more work and less board feet. I guess with my first WM being a cadillac....I've never even sawed with a no frills mill. So maybe thinking more like 700-800 feet a day is better?

Seems like the used mills Im seeing are really expensive- the WMs really hold that value- 5-10 year old mills don't seem like they are very cheap....and I'll make a confession- I'm real particular about how well the mill has been kept up- right down to the paint etc....Just weird that way. I used to totally clean my mill every day and kept it under cover all the time when not on site. So I have heartburn picking up one that dosent live up to my compulsive nature. ;D I did love that WM though.

What other sites have a lot of used mill listings?

Magicman · February 27, 2010, 06:01:26 PM

I assume that you looked below. Did you try here?

http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/

coastlogger · February 27, 2010, 07:26:21 PM

Id agree with others that a 1000 bd ft per day avg is simply not obtainable on a manual mill for most people. I guess I in theory could do it if I worked 12 to 14 hours with very short breaks but I dont(cant) and I dont know anybody who can, day after day anyhow.
Manual mills use a lot of energy...
clgr

zopi · February 27, 2010, 07:34:05 PM

ya know, there are a bunch of good deals on used lt40's and lt40 hyd...just got to look for them...a new lt28 is around 12 grand...a new lt40 around 16 or so...

For that money or less you can get a hyd mill...I love my lt15 but it works me to death.

as far as for the comparison between norwood and wm....no question the lt28 wins hands down...for way too many reasons to list...and yes I hated playing with erctor sets :D

vahighlander · February 27, 2010, 08:07:42 PM

Well I think that seals the deal for me...i just saw a photo of the two pallets of boxes that the Norwood comes on- and about 100 boxes! Im pretty mechanically inclined but I don't want that thrash.

I understand the advice on the hydraulics- but Im gonna go with a new LT28 with log deck package, power feed and 25hp. If I want to add some hydraulics in the future I will look into customizing it myself. WM service was always good to me back when- so thats a known entity to me as well. Thanks guys! I think Im more excited now than my first mill- cause honestly I was a little scared before my first one- loads of money and didn't know if I could really do well with it. But now I know its a blast!

taschmidretired · February 27, 2010, 08:18:34 PM

Sounds like you were already set in your purchase. Are Noorwoods still only offered up from a pallet?
Stay Thirsty Amigo

vahighlander · February 27, 2010, 08:35:12 PM

I heard thats how they ship. Maybe you can pay something xtra for setup? Anyway- always leaned to the LT28...but just had to b sure I guess. Thanks again....I look forward to talking with you guys on here.

sdunston · February 27, 2010, 08:38:29 PM

The LT28 is on sale right now making it a mill under 10 grand
Sam

LOGDOG · February 27, 2010, 11:30:46 PM

Welcome to the Forum vahighlander. And welcome back to the WoodMizer family. I'm a fan of them myself after having 5 of them and I'm working on buying a 6th as we speak. (Shhhhh ....) Lots of good companies out there but I keep going back to WoodMizer. Look forward to seeing you around. Post some pictures of your projects as you go along. We kind of like pictures around here.

Don K · February 28, 2010, 06:13:36 AM

Welcome highlander. Good mill in the 28. Lots of other good mills out there. Guess it boils down to personal preference and WM has a proven track record of customer satisfaction. They are the kind of people I could work for.

Having owned a manual mill I would have to say based on your setup and loghandling capabilities, I would expect days between 500 and 800 on average. I have had many 1000+ days but it was long days, good logs, wide boards, and a helper that knew my every move. You will sleep good at night.

Don

bandmiller2 · February 28, 2010, 07:08:29 AM

Highlander you've been through it all before and know what you want.The power feed is good as is power up and down especially if you cluster cut cants that is many cuts before you remove the boards,as you have to raise the band up and over to return.A stationary mill really dosen't need the hyd. log loader as a dead deck serves the same purpose especially if you have equip. to load logs.Mayby at a later date you can build a Pineywoods turner/clamp.Frank C.

John Bartley · February 28, 2010, 08:04:29 AM

Quote from: vahighlander on February 26, 2010, 09:14:59 PM

Any opinions on these mills for my goals (I know the Norwood is new- but the 2000 is probably comparable). I am 47 years old- in real good fit condition, and love to stay fit. So I'm not scared of the manual approach- but just never done it. I would still like the ability to saw over 1,000 bd ft per day on avg with not too much stress. And if I can saw 1.5 to 2 days per week for my community at approx am avg of 1,000 -1,100 ft per day of good lumber- then I would feel good about not paying so much for a mill this time , and also about sawing by the hour ($35 to $40 per hr.) Looking forward to hearing your advice! Thanks!

No advice or opinion on mill models, but on bdft/day and $/hr, I have to put in my $0.02 worth. I have a 25hp manual mill. I'm in good shape, and have made or bought all the jigs, winches, ramps etc to make my manual mill as operator friendly as it can be. To do 1000+ feet a day I'd have to have clean, large, long logs and no trouble. I'd be more inclined to agree with those who suggest that 600 or 700 feet would be more like an average day. That includes time spent sorting, loading, unloading, piling, cleaning, talking to customers etc.....all those things that have to be done that aren't usually charged for. On hourly rate..........I'm very very conservative and I have an accounting and business background, so before I bought my mill I did some "cost accounting". I was viciously conservative in my estimates of expenses, life of consumables and price of repair/replacement parts. The reason for being so viciously conservative is that I'd rather be surpised with extra profit than extra expenses....I calculated that it costs me $20-$25 per hour to turn the key in my mill. At $45/hr, that would net out to $20 or $25 per hour for you - is that enough?

Just some thoughts from someone who has been self employed for 20 years.

cheers

John

MartyParsons · February 28, 2010, 09:07:57 AM

We will be in Fredricksburg, VA March 12 - 14. We will have a LT28 there. A member of the FF is picking it up there.

http://cms.thewoodworkingshows.com/cms/Home/FredericksburgVA312314/tabid/165/Default.aspx

I have heard good things about the Norwod company.

vahighlander · February 28, 2010, 09:42:59 AM

Great Marty I will stop by. Question- if I buy one where would I take delivery? In near Richmond/ Last time - I actually drove my new rig back from WM HQ.

vahighlander · February 28, 2010, 09:55:43 AM

Quote from: John Bartley on February 28, 2010, 08:04:29 AM
Quote from: vahighlander on February 26, 2010, 09:14:59 PM

Any opinions on these mills for my goals (I know the Norwood is new- but the 2000 is probably comparable). I am 47 years old- in real good fit condition, and love to stay fit. So I'm not scared of the manual approach- but just never done it. I would still like the ability to saw over 1,000 bd ft per day on avg with not too much stress. And if I can saw 1.5 to 2 days per week for my community at approx am avg of 1,000 -1,100 ft per day of good lumber- then I would feel good about not paying so much for a mill this time , and also about sawing by the hour ($35 to $40 per hr.) Looking forward to hearing your advice! Thanks!

No advice or opinion on mill models, but on bdft/day and $/hr, I have to put in my $0.02 worth. I have a 25hp manual mill. I'm in good shape, and have made or bought all the jigs, winches, ramps etc to make my manual mill as operator friendly as it can be. To do 1000+ feet a day I'd have to have clean, large, long logs and no trouble. I'd be more inclined to agree with those who suggest that 600 or 700 feet would be more like an average day. That includes time spent sorting, loading, unloading, piling, cleaning, talking to customers etc.....all those things that have to be done that aren't usually charged for. On hourly rate..........I'm very very conservative and I have an accounting and business background, so before I bought my mill I did some "cost accounting". I was viciously conservative in my estimates of expenses, life of consumables and price of repair/replacement parts. The reason for being so viciously conservative is that I'd rather be surpised with extra profit than extra expenses....I calculated that it costs me $20-$25 per hour to turn the key in my mill. At $45/hr, that would net out to $20 or $25 per hour for you - is that enough?

Just some thoughts from someone who has been self employed for 20 years.

cheers

John

That really helps- thanks John. That was part of my problem- trying to back into a custom sawing charge on a manual mill- when all I know was my hydraulic mill from years ago. On avg then that equates a ballpark of your customer paying approx 30 to 35 cents a bd ft ? Does that sound right?

John Bartley · February 28, 2010, 10:12:54 AM

Quote from: vahighlander on February 28, 2010, 09:55:43 AM

That really helps- thanks John. That was part of my problem- trying to back into a custom sawing charge on a manual mill- when all I know was my hydraulic mill from years ago. On avg then that equates a ballpark of your customer paying approx 30 to 35 cents a bd ft ? Does that sound right?

This is not going to be a popular post.....

I'm also conservative when I estimate cutting times and amounts for my customers. Because I am (like you) retired and only cut part time, I only take the best jobs and customers - no crap, no dirt, no strange logs, and as a result I only get customers who are willing to pay to get exactly what they want. I charge $60/hour, and I estimate 150bdft/hr with average working conditions. That works out to about $0.40 per bdft., but I don't garantee anything other than they'll get my best quality work for $60/hr. The cents/bdft is entirely up to what we are sawing and how much help they give and how prepared they are. Either my customers are seriously interested in the process, and are committed to investing themselves in the work, or I don't work for them. I'm retired.....I don't need either customers who don't care or can't pay.

cheers

John (I'm not really as snobbish as this post sounds - I just worked too hard all my life to give it away)

taschmidretired · February 28, 2010, 05:38:18 PM

Quote from: taschmidretired on February 27, 2010, 04:11:19 PM
I actually wrote a song called "Second Time Around"

Hey You Guys, VAhighlander said he wants to saw manually!!!! I've got to admit, the story is usally reversed.

I just think you should look around a little more before making your final choice. I heard there is a strong, reputable, reliable mill out there.

Let's see now, ummm,...... I think it is called a T A Schmid. OK ! I can't resist!

Seriously Vahighlander, there are some pretty good mills out there along with the ones you mentioned. Take a look at that Boardwalk mill.

Stay Thirsty My Friend taschmidretired

I actually did write a song called Second Time Around. The lyrcs may give someone a chuckle http://www.youtube.com/taschmidiot