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Making and installing Wood Shingles

Started by Planman1954, February 12, 2010, 12:34:01 PM

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Planman1954

Go for it.. I'm not too worried about water retention since I did not use felt. They can dry quickly after a rain, preventing rot and mold. I think they'll last a long time.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 / Solar Dry Kiln /1943 Ford 9n tractor

Piston

I was told these shingles were hand split white pine, they haven't been touched since my grandfather bought the land in the early '60s, and he says it was about 100yrs old then.  I don't know if it truly is that old or not, but regardless, as far as he knows they are the original siding. 
Not in the best of shape and will need to be replaced soon but still doing their job.

No felt, good ventilation, and no treatment-ever.


Barn is in the Lakes Region of NH, hopefully I'll get to restore it someday as my own 8)





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Planman1954

I finally finished the shingles on the barn today...September 9, 2010. It took about 8 months, off and on, as I had time to work on them. I've had some discoloration due to the time between installations. If I had it to do again, I would try to do a rough guesstimate of how many shingles to install, and cut them all at once. This would prevent the discolorization from too much time between installations.

As I said, Some of the things I've learned include:
1) When the shingles are put on green, do NOT put a space between them. As they dry, the space will be about right due to shrinkage.
2) Applying the semi transpartent stain is necessary to keep the shingles flat. I had some tend to flip up after installation when we had some really hot days here this summer. The stain on the top makes the moisture dry from the bottom, and the shingle stays flat.
3) Do make the shingle jigs side by side so that one stick can be used.
4) After the shingles have dried out for a month or so, there will be some splits open up that will be obvious from underneath with the sun shining through. I stuck a nail up  through the bottom of the split area, went on top of the roof, and tapped small width shingles to close up the gaps. I had about 20 areas over the entire roof, which I fixed in about an hour.

I ended up putting felt over the ridge top, and then placed ridge cap shingles over that. I went a little thicker on the cap shingles (one inch)by 18" long with a 9" exposure.

Well that's all I can think of for now. I'll be posting some pictures later on when I get the final stain applied on the roof. God bless.
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paul case

sounds like it worked out. i love it when a plan comes together and a lesson or 2 is learned. even if it isnt my plan.   pc
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Tim

Quote from: Planman1954 on February 21, 2010, 07:07:50 AM
georgia boy:

I'm not there yet, but I have a few ideas. The first is to have the last, or top row of shingles butt each other when I reach the top on both sides, and then lay a course of asphalt shingles as a ridge, just as is done on a typical shingle roof. Then I plan on nailing a course of homemade ridge cap wood shingles over that. I'm thinking about making the cap shingles using exterior glue and screw them together on the correct angle. At least, that's the plan in my head so far.

Cut a strip of ice / rain guard 6-8" wide and lay it over the ridge instead of the asphalt shingle. Ice / rain "heals" around the punctures made by the nails. Cut a bunch of shingles 5" wide and another bunch 4 1/2" wide. Start laying them down wind from the prevailing wind. Lap the 5" over the 4 1/2" with a starter course as you did on the bottom edge of your roof. Expose your cap singles 5" or so. Alternate the side that has the 5" shingle, all through the ridge of the roof. When you come to the end, reverse the direction of the butt and double them up.

The pine will last better than if they were installed on plywood. They won't last as long as cedar would have but, you should expect 50 to 60 years out of the roof none the less.

The key is the ventilation. When a shingle takes rain, the wood takes on some water before it runs off. If the shingle is nailed to a solid deck; when the rain stops and shingle dries out, it creates a moisture differential. The exposed face becomes drier than the rest of the shingle. Therefore, the shingle curls up either through its width or through its length. Hundreds of cycles a year like this will contribute to a shortened life of the shingle. Also, by nailing the shingle to a solid deck, the retained moisture in the tips will promote fungus growth.

I've seen more than a few cedar shingle roofs that were not installed correctly and only last 20 - 25 years.

There are a snack of lawsuits going on in western Canada over pine shingles. I presume they were not installed correctly to start with...

If you are installing, always gap the shingles, dry or not.

There is more info on my site...

I've got to go make said shingles. The shed looks good planman
Eastern White Cedar Shingles

Planman1954

Hello all:

Here is a photo of the finished shingles I took this morning. I thought you might like to see them turning gray. There was no finish applied on them. After the fading happened so quickly on the shingles on the lean to sides of the barn, I decided not to apply stain to the main body of the barn roof. They gray will look ok I think with the stained lap siding like the cupola has on it! Later....


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Dave Shepard

Quote from: LOGDOG on February 14, 2010, 09:07:38 AM
Last night I was thumbing through Jack Sobon's "Build a Classic Timber Frame House". On page 150 (for those here who have it), in the right hand column he talks about wood shingles. while he says that western red cedar is the best choice, he goes on to say, "the traditional choice in much of New England is eastern white pine". So maybe Planman will be ok after all.  :)

LOGDOG

Jack also wrote an article for Timber Framing, the Guild's journal, about white pine durability. It is the heartwood that will last, while the sapwood rots away quickly. I was talking to Jack last year about roofing, and he said he bought white cedar for his buildings, and it didn't last but a few years. Everything has metal now. The white cedar was supposed to be all heartwood, but much of it still had bark on it.
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Planman1954

I remembered when I did this thread that someone said to follow up in a few years about how the shingles held up. Well, a major problem cropped up with the pine splitting, which allowed water to seep through even though there were three layers of shingles.
Also, I made the decision NOT to use felt, since it could cause rot. This was a MAJOR error. Always use felt!! That would have prevented the leaks. I am going to place metal over the shingles on the side wings. The main body seems to do ok.
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Peter Drouin

The shingles will rot faster under the tin and the screws will come loose that hold down the tin.
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SwampDonkey

Hard to beat a cedar shingle. But I do believe since the invention of tar paper, it was always tacked on before shingling. Other than that, start with a steel roof secured by screws. Up here screws or nails are fastened on the ribs, not on the flat sections where water sheets over the roofing. Our steel up here comes pre drilled these days on the ribs.  ;D
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Magicman

The normal is to place 1X4 lathing over the shingles that the metal roof will screw to.
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DMcCoy

How much lift do the sticks make.  Is it 7/16"?

Planman1954

Sorry guys...I'm just going to screw the metal to the shingles. If they rot...far out. At this point, I don't care.  ;D The roof leaks as is, and I can put metal on it by myself for about $300.00. It's ruining my interior boards. I bet the metal will be on there longer than I will need to worry about it.
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Peter Drouin

Quote from: Magicman on April 23, 2015, 07:54:34 AM
The normal is to place 1X4 lathing over the shingles that the metal roof will screw to.



That won't last for very long. With wood or asphalt shingles.
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SpaceBus

Glad to find your thread. I know it's old, but maybe you are still kicking around here. Do you have more photos of your shingle jigs? I'm thinking about making something like that for my Logosol. 

Also, perhaps you used too many or the wrong fastener type in your shingles. I put some up on a tiny livestock loafing barn and they have not split and I used as few stainless ring shank nails as possible. No felt and no water comes through. There is a bit of staining on the underside on the strapping, but we also have a ton of fog here on the coast. On my house I put them up as siding with staples, as recommended by the Cedar Shingle Bureau, and have no splitting either. 
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Planman1954

Sorry...no more photos of the jigs....I got rid of them due to their simplicity and no need to save after the job was done. Where I erred was listening to others worried about air flow under the shingles, and installed them without felt. Many said the felt was a bad idea.....NOPE! With EACH layer of shingles, run 18" of 15# felt underneath to prevent water from getting through. If I had done that, the roof would have never leaked. You can simply cut a 3' roll in half and go to town installing them. Also reread reply number 36 (page 2 of the thread) for a jig explanation.
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Planman1954

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 23, 2015, 06:02:48 PM
Quote from: Magicman on April 23, 2015, 07:54:34 AM
The normal is to place 1X4 lathing over the shingles that the metal roof will screw to.



That won't last for very long. With wood or asphalt shingles.
You are correct Peter! The installers did just that.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 / Solar Dry Kiln /1943 Ford 9n tractor

Tim

Quote from: Planman1954 on April 22, 2015, 07:20:30 PMWell, a major problem cropped up with the pine splitting, w


One thing that I have noticed with the bolts before we cut them into shingles is that if they have started to check out, the shingles that have check on the butt will continue to check when they are a shingle regardless if they are installed properly or not. Consequently, on the occasions (particularly in the late spring, summer and early fall around here) that a bolt is left overnight or a day, the shingles from those bolts go straight into shims. This is a sufficient enough of a problem that we won't buy logs that have been off the roots for more than 6 months and we will not stock logs for more than a year, particularly if the sun bears down on the pile for the majority of the day.

Granted, nearly all of what we produce in shingle is eastern white cedar (northern white cedar for you stars and stripes folks). I noticed the same in the White Pine test roofs I did on the mill. I have zero experience with southern softwoods but, suspect it to be a general wood issue as oppose to species specific. Admittedly, I have no idea about the details of the milling process that would be pertinent Planman.

One thing that I would be adamant on though is to strongly discourage interweaving tar paper. Ultimately, this restricts the drying of the shingle, consequently, causing cupping and curling. Further, the retention of moisture in the shingle will promote fungus growth and limit the life of the shingle. I certainly do not mean any disrespect whatsoever in the preceding wording.  
Eastern White Cedar Shingles

rusticretreater

I agree with not using tar paper between layers of shingles.  Air circulation is essential.  How would a green shingle dry evenly if it has moisture holding tar paper underneath and the sun and other elements hitting it on the surface? Shingles should be nailed to purlins with a double layer at the front edge with a ridge board to prevent the shingles from curling down in front.

There is also a product known as Cedar breather which is a breathable mat to put under shingles if you insist on using plywood or other underlayment.  

Some more info here:  https://www.nachi.org/wood-shakes-shingles-part3-135.htm

 
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Lasershark

Green shingles notwithstanding, I actually zeroed in on this photo from the link above because it represents what I feel is the "correct" way to use felt on a roof, where the 18" felt is laid on top of 1x4 strapping. :



From the webpage:

Interlayment for Shakes
Neither shakes nor shingles should have a waterproof underlayment installed unless the shakes or shingles are installed on a batten system, which allows for good air flow between the underlayment and the underside of the shakes or shingles. Shakes should never have underlayment installed except where an ice barrier is required over solid sheathing. Instead, interlayment is required. Interlayment consists of an 18-inch-wide strip of 30-pound black felt installed between courses of shakes. The bottom of the felt should be positioned above the butt of the shakes at a distance equal to twice the exposure. The interlayment should never be visible.

Source



I realize that the usage of green shingles represents a special case, but I still feel the fundamentals apply and you want to interweave the shingles and paper regardless because the 18" felt completes the seal where-ever you have two gaps or cracks lining up on successive courses. Leak prevention is the roof's main function and unsightly curled shingles represent a lower-tier aesthetic consideration.

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Tom King

That will work fine if you want a 30 year roof.  It also shows that the shingles only have a double overlap.  That will need some kind of help.  Tar paper is only going to last so long.

The old, hundred year plus roofs I've come across all had triple overlap.  That exponentially cuts down on the chance of the roof leaking.

Since the cost of the wood is just a small fraction of the total cost, I use a four times overlap-28" shingle for the typical 7" exposure.  A 28" shingle would have been a lot more trouble to rive by hand than a 21" shingle, but with modern equipment, it doesn't make much difference.

The old 21" shingles with 7" exposure had one nail in the center that was covered by the second row up.  The wood would have had a lot more life left in it, but the wrought iron nails had deteriorated enough that any holding power was greatly diminished, and left them even more susceptible to damage from someone walking on them.

That one roof, in the pictures on my website, that has lasted from 1850 to 1982 would have been fine, but for someone going up there to mount a TV antenna that not only put holes through the roof, but didn't know how to walk lightly on them.

By going to a four times overlap, I'm able to add a second center fastener on the next purlin up, that would not have been there for a 21" shingle.  It does significantly change the feeling of security of each shingle.

I was asked to make some Cypress shingles for some Preservation outfit that was planning to interweave tarpaper, and dip them in tar.  I told them I didn't have time, but really didn't want to have anything to do with it.

I've said this more times than I can remember.  The life has been engineered out of wooden shingles.

going to find some pictures of a mockup display I use for talks

rooster 58

I wonder if Jack pine or white oak would be ok for shingles?

Tim

@Lasershark , In support of Tom King's statement, read the last two sentences of my previous post.

Along with milling cedar shingles for the last 20 or so years, I had been installing them on and off for the last nearly thirty. In that time, I've done a fair share of R&R in cedar shingles. The one common feature of those R&Rs were that the installation method changed from those that were installed on barns and houses that lasted. Those tear offs did not allow the shingles to breathe from behind.

The house I live in was built in 1893 as a church. I remember that when I was about 10 that the cedar shingles were still exposed. While it was converted to a home by then, they installed asphalt on the roof. By the time we bought it and I installed a chimney through the roof for a wood stove, there was the original cedar shingles on it, two layers of asphalt and a layer of steel. Its a bloody nightmare if I'm going to change it. Nonetheless, what made those cedar shingles last the hundred years is that they could breathe. What made the 15 or so roofs I replaced fail early was that they couldn't due to nailing directly to a deck or interweaving tar paper.
Eastern White Cedar Shingles

Tim

Quote from: rooster 58 on January 10, 2022, 03:12:42 PM
I wonder if Jack pine or white oak would be ok for shingles?
White oak has excellent rot resistance. Jack pie not so much. Both would work if you allow them to breathe. The Jack Pine may last a few decades, the White Oak might be into centuries.
Eastern White Cedar Shingles

Tom King

I found the pictures.  I built this with some left over shingles from one job.  In the first picture, only the top three rows have the correct overlap.  I don't remember the details of why I did it like that since it's been so long ago when I stuck this together.  Looks like I need to build a better display, but I've shown this one quite a number of times, and no one has noticed.

You can see the stainless staple crowns left on the surface instead of driven down into the wood.  One picture from the side shows the four layers for 7" exposure with 28" shingles.   You can also see how the 4x length allows a second staple up high on each shingle.

The last picture shows that the staples are long enough for them to be clinched underneath, so they are effectively wired on with stainless wire.


 

 


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