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Timber Framing Material

Started by Geoff Miller, February 04, 2010, 12:35:57 PM

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Geoff Miller

I am thinking about a small timber framing project, a cabin in the woods so to speak. Since this will all be new to me, I was wondering what the experts think about using red pine for this type of construction. I say red pine because there is a small plantation of red pines on the land I would build on. These trees are anywhere from 8" - 14" DBH and probably 35' to 40' tall. Your thoughts on using red pine (pros and cons) and experience using this material would be appreciated.

Geoff

beenthere

Welcome to the Forum.

Red pine should work. 

Check out some of the other projects (if you haven't already). Projects like Jander3 has presented in pretty great detail (along with several others).

Jander3 has a blogspot called Peeling Logs
http://peelinglogs.blogspot.com/

As well, he posts here.

Check him out.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33283.msg601593.html#msg601593
south central Wisconsin
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fishpharmer

Geoff Miller, welcome to the forum.  Unfortunately I can't help with your question.  I am certain someone can give you an experienced answer.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
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moonhill

It would not be my first choice.  It shrinks a lot, has a high sap wood content, and is heavy when new, all being related.  If using it I would try to get it cut as soon as possible so it may have some time to dry before the heat of summer sets in and it goes blue. 

But if it is what you have by all means use it.  You could mix a few species in with it to make the adventure more interesting.

Tim
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shinnlinger

My experience with "red pine"  has been "Norway pine" and it has been good, but conventional wisdom is what Moonhill says.  Try to ID if it is "scotch pine" or something else more specific.

I think for your project it will work, which is a bonus as that is what you have.  Mill it ASAP, Sticker stack it with weight under tin and it will help.  I sawed mine frozen and it is real pretty and the old timer down the road says it would be good for flooring, as it is harder than white so I cut a bunch of floorboards too in addition to purlins.  I haven't laid it yet, so I don't know how it will work for flooring, but none of my purlins twisted that I am aware of.  Supposedly it is less rot resistant than white, but a little stronger and for an internal Timber frame that is good.

Good luck,

Dave

Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

jander3

Welcome...

What to use gave me a big-time headache.  I got advice from many sources; none of it lined up.  In the end, I used the best advice, cut from my property and don't sweat it.  And, if I need to mix red oak, red pine, aspen, and maple, I don't mind a bit.

Red Pine (Norway Pine) should be fine.  Log cabin builders often build the walls with white pine and all the supports, trusses, ridges, etc out of Red Pine as it is a little stronger.


Geoff Miller

Thanks for your thoughts and experiences.

At this point I am still in the planning phase. I had been researching to buy a portable bandmill. In the process, I started thinking about what different things I could do with it.

Our property consists of 300 acres of everything from the red pine plantation to stands of hardwood, softwood, nice ridges, swamps etc. There is red & white pine, spruce, white cedar, hemlock, sugar maple, black ash, yellow & white birch, cherry & red oak.

The property was farmland in the early 1900's and reverted back to forest over time. Some areas are hard to access as only a small portion of the property fronts a road.

We built a stick framed structure on the property but I have been thinking about building a small log cabin. Then I started to think about a timber frame structure. My wife tells me I should do less "thinking" and more "doing". The nice thing about thinking is it doesn't cost a lot.

I bought a book on timber framing so I can understand the process a little better. If I decided to use the red pines for a timber frame structure, do you recommend cutting and squaring the timbers and letting them dry for a period? Would it hurt to have them dry for a year or two? They would be properly stacked and sheltered from direct sun and rain during this time. Since I still have a day job, whatever I build is going to take some time.

moonhill

Sounds like a nice selection of wood, use a little of all of them and you will find what works well. 

I would cut the trees green and convert them to timber and work the timber green as well.  Less chance of things getting wanky on ya, and green timber works easier.  Just start the process sooner than you thought you wanted to. 

Which book did you sit down with? 

Tim
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jander3

I've taken workshops on log cabin building, timber framing, and rigging.  Each workshop was very valuable.  Generally, I learned from books, tried the building techniques, and then took the classes.  At that point I was very prepared with questions.  The classes saved me lots of time and heartache when it was time to build.  Might be worth thinking about while you are doing your planning.

Brad_bb

I second the motion on taking a week-long workshop.  It's worth it. But sign up now as they often fill up fast for spring.  Most are in the spring with only a few in late summer/fall.  If you tell us you are interested in a workshop and what for, and your location, perhaps we can recommend a workshop.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

frwinks

Welcome aboard Geoff 8)
I see you're in Ontario, there's only one place to obtain the knowledge you'll need during your journey.... Whippletree Timberframing, Mark's workshop schedule can be found here:

http://www.wpltree.ca/workshopindex.htm

keep buying those books, even the ones with pretty pics have useful info for a DIY'er, ie. I've always thought Benson's books were all about pushing the mass production frames/hammerbeams and the mainstream stuff that fetches millions of $$$$.  Hold and behold... in one of his books he extensively covers the direct glazing technique.  In such great detail, it provided the knowledge I needed to make my plan of wrapping our cruck/prow a go..Our IG panels are on order and we're on our way to direct glaze part of our frame... U know the old sayin'..." don't judge the book by it's cover"  :D
don't worry about those timbers...saw them big and if they move, re-saw them when you're ready to cut joints..it's what we did with some spruce we bought.  It didn't end up moving much at all, so we have some bigger beams now...  Working a fulltime gig, we're on year 3 of our project...and counting.. :D
g/l and keep us posted on your progress ;)

Geoff Miller

Moonhill - I have been reading "A Timber Framing Workshop" by Steve Chappell as my first introdcution to timber framing.

Brad_bb - I live in Southwestern Ontario, not too far from the Windsor/Detroit border This is farming country with not a lot of trees. Our recreation property is between Huntsville and North Bay, Ontario,. We do a lot of hunting up there in the fall and a small timber frame structure in the woods is very appealing to me.  I have been looking online for courses. Frwinks has recommended "Whippletree" so I plan to check out their website. I also found a 6 day course put on by "Gibson Timber Framing". They offer a course in early May in Harrowsmith, Ontario and a repeat course in early July in Manotick, Ontario. Manotick is close to Ottawa, where I grew up and I still have relatives in the area. The course involves building a 16 x 20 barn frame and erecting it on the last day.

Thanks for all the replies. Always good to get feedback from people who have already lived or are living through the experience.

Brad_bb

Unfortunately I don't know those up in your neck of the woods, but luckily as other have mentioned, they do.  I'm sure either of those will be good. 

Steve Chappell was my first timberframe course by chance.  One thing that I didn't understand is that there are a few different layout methods.  Mill rule, Square Rule, chalk line square rule, and Scribe rule.  There's also the geometric method, but that is just barely starting to make a resurgence.  Chappell teaches mill rule.  It's the most straight forward, but relies on timber that is straight and conforms to dimension, which will typically necessitate 4 side planed timbers.  For his workshop, this makes sense. 

There is so much information to absorb, combined with getting some actual experience in, keeping that part more straight forward makes sense.  Things you get in that class are, nomenclature, design and calculation, timber selection, labeling system for timbers,  mill rule layout, how to use the tools, cutting, and raising. 

After the class I learned more about the other layout systems.  I took a second workshop elsewhere that used square rule.  Square rule is well adapted to using rough sawn timbers, timbers of inconsistent sizes relative to nominal dimensions, and using timbers that are not perfectly square or ones that are wonky.  This class also used only hand tools, no power tools.  Learning how to use hand tools properly was invaluable to say the least.  I discovered that before the course, I didn't know how to cut timber or board square, now I do. 
 
So choose wisely, and if something is not shown in your class, ASK for a demonstration. 

The second class I took did not include scribe rule layout, but I asked and the instructor set up a demo and showed us how one night after our regular work was done for the day.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

moonhill

Brad, the geometrics used will give you the shape, lengths, size, spacing, slope, bliss, and some other things.  You could design with geometry and use any of the other systems of layout, almost.   

In addition to your list you could add a few different methods of scribing, double cut and tumbling, there a number of way to skin that cat.  Another method I use on occasion is "fudge" and it involves a chainsaw and a lack of time.  It's not always pretty but sure is sweet.

Tim
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jander3

Tim,

The fudge method?   I didn't know it had a name; however, I too have employed the full-on chainsaw technique.   Works great for temporary buildings and structures. 

moonhill

Yes it does have a name, I coined it, but I will let you use it fit you like. ;D

Tim
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Dave Shepard

Don't forget mapping! :D I worked with two Gibson employees last summer at Heartwood. I have taken four workshops now, and I feel they are a great way to learn.
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