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cat won't start

Started by woodmills1, January 27, 2010, 04:11:33 PM

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woodmills1

It was above freezing this afternoon, i let the glow plugs on for the reccommended 25 sec.  the started turned but she didn't fire.  it was puffin smoke after 15 or seconds.  tried twice more later no luck.

I turned the idle up in the cold could that be the problem?
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Papa1stuff

Best thing to do would be to hook up to your mill and head for my backyard ,not trouble starting here ;D ;D
1987 PB Grader with forks added to bucket
2--2008 455 Rancher Husky
WM CBN Sharpener & Setter

woodmills1

u pay postage or should we UPS  :D :D :D
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

ladylake

 Turning the idle up doesn't hurt, diesels will start the best if held wide open. Are your glow plugs working?    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

shinnlinger

James,

How old is your perkapilar?  Is it pre ULSD???  All diesel these days, red or not is ULSD and you need to think about additives on top of the antigel.  synthetic oil for lubricity, Acetone to help offset the paraffin they replaced the sulphur with and xylene to stabilize it.

I would also check the fuel filter as they tend to gum up in the cold if you don't have the above goodies in it.     Also feel free to cycle the glow plugs 3 or 4 times before firing.  Is the battery charged up?  Are the plugs getting juice?

Dave
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

moonhill

Is it cranking fast enough, how is the battery?  Did you try jumping it? 

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

coastlogger

Good chance its a glow plug issue. Simple test: Get your tesrer, find a glow plug, put pos lead on top term of glow plug, neg lead on good ground, now energize glow plugs. Do you have 11 volts or so?If not figure out why,ie circuit that should give power to glows is faulty. if you do have volts, dig further. This test will NOT tell you if you have a faulty glow plug or three.
clgr

ladylake

 My Isuzu has a electric fuel pump, when I turn the glow plugs on I can hear the pump slow down some from the current draw. It must have fast heating glow plugs, this morning at 0 F , glow plugged about 6 seconds and it started right up and this engine won't start at 70 above without them.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

sgschwend

Sound familiar, in my case the glow plug fuse was burned out so no glow plugs.  The poor motor would smoke but not start.

You can measure 12V at the glow plug with a volt meter, also some engines use a metal bar as the lead to the glow plugs, if you have one then the bar can get hot when the system is working correctly (touch the bar and see if it is getting hot). 

Last test would be to measure the glow plug terminal to ground with an ohm meter (the leads would need to be removed from the glow plug so you can measure them one at a time).  Should be able to measure a pretty low resistance; if open circuit then that glow plug is bad.



Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

pitotshock

I know with my tractor (Case 885XL) if it is below freezing by a few degrees I need the block heater to warm up the block. It is an aftermarket coolant heater with 1500W element and a small circulation pump built in. Leave that on for about 30 minutes and it fires up right away. But the Case engine has NO glow plugs what so ever, just compression start.
Stihl MS361, Makita DCS340

boman1

If the glow plug fuse is blown...most likely you  have at least one glow plug shorted to ground. One easy test is to remove the bus bar from the glow plugs.... take a 16 gauge wire and connect it to the Positive post of the battery and long enough to go to each of the glow plugs independently. Now ....we are checking to see if one is shoted to ground....touch the wire to the first glow plug....you should see a small spark ...glow plug is heating and is not shorted, a big spark means the glow plug is shorted to ground and no good. Now perform this test on each plug..you will easily tell a shorted plug from a non shorted plug. With an Ohm meter sometimes it can be hard for some to tell the difference between a good and bad plug. If there is no spark at all the glow plug could have an internal open that does'nt allow it to complete the circuit and heat up.....But,,, that wont blow a fuse. Now thats glow plug 101.........

Old Iron nut

 Woodmills 1, does your engine have an electrical or mechcanical shutdown? If it does, the engine will not start untill the reset button is pressed, otherwise the engine will not get fuel until the oil pressure builds up to open the rack in the fuel pump. What engine do you have? If it is an older engine and you are using winter fuel it is possible that the injection pumps are worn enough to bypass fuel. I had this problem last winter with a Cat D17000 loco engine. Contacted the fuel rep and he advised me to dump several gallons of a certain type of hydraulic oil in the fuel tank to increase the fuel viscosity as the fuel was too thin for the old pumps. It worked. Ths modern fuel is a real PITA. You may also have a frozen fuel line. Open the filter bleed and crank the engine over with the starter. If you have fuel flowing from the bleed you may be OK. If not, check line to the tank, fuel filter, fuel level, etc. You may have to open the throttle half to wide open to start, but when it does, cut the throttle back to idle to warm up. I had my D330 running yesterday (-20C), no glow plugs, just a couple of short bursts of ether and she was running. If you have any more questions feel free to contact me. I have been working on these old Cats for over 40 years and pretty well know their habits. Cheers, Larry.

woodmills1

2005 cat 62 hp ona lt70 with low low hrs.  started and ran fine yesterday

started every time cold this winter but died quick till I upped the idle

will check the fuse thing

this moter seems to like and need the glow plugs.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

bandmiller2

Checks as above,its very good form to remove the buss bar/wires and clean them retighten they tend to loosen due to heating and cooling.Any resistance due to loose or oxidation has a big effect on low volt current.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

MartyParsons

Does the Glow Plug light come on ? Check with 12 V test light on the bar connections on the glow plugs. If you have power there, remove the glow plugs and hot wire them see if they glow. If you dont have 12 v at the glow plugs there is a relay and a fuse. We have not seen many fuse failures. I have seen the relay fail, and the glow plugs burn out. The glow plug relay has a timer on it it will only come on for 30 sec.
Hope this helps.
M
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

WoodMiller

Check the fusible link which is a flat ribbon of metal bridging the screws that bring power to the relay (inside the black box on Loader arm side of engine)  If it is burned out, it is very easy to not notice that it is supposed to be there.  The relay costs over  $100.00. the fusible link, if blown, is around $7.00 (it's a 50 amp link).  Mine blew on my 51 Caperkins, but I wasn't able to find a short in the circuit to account for it.  Works fine, now.
WoodMizer LT40 Superhydraulic LT40HDD51

sparks

Unbolt the fuel shut off solenoid and see if it starts. If it does see if you have voltage at the solenoid.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

woodmills1

thanks for all the tips, gonna be way cold next few so I may not have at it soon.  Gonna try to reduce the hunydu inside list.  will check the power to the glow plugs first.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

captain_crunch

On the Cat 966 and 980's I have opperated you can watch the amp gauge and when applying the golw plugs it will show about 15-20 amp draw when they are working. I kinda wonder about fuel filters. On the OLD machines there was a little screen filter at Injection pump and was often over looked and traps water
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

ladylake

 
  Those glow plugs do take quite a few amps, if you have power coming up to them the easy way to test would be to unhook the link between them then  use a battery charger and see how many amps each one is taking.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Meadows Miller

Gday

It takes a clever bloke to make a cat croke   ;) :D :D was a saying i heard from an old bloke once sorry to be a s.a but i had to slip it in Mate  ;) im pretty dang sure you will get it sorted and having the sawdust fly again soon as it dosnt sound like a huge drama Mate  ;) ;D 8) 8)

anyway whats a glow plug  sounds like somthing we wouldnt need in our climate  ??? ;) :D :D :D :D ;D 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

johnjbc

I would try leaving the Glow Plugs on longer. On both my Kubota an my Dodge Pickup I find that I need to cycle the plugs 2 or 3 times when it is really cold out, and then it starts right up, On the Cat 977 you can see the Amp Gage show a discharge when you holt the switch in preheat and it takes at least 45 sec.
If it is smoking I don't think you have a fuel problem.
Last summer we had to rebuild the wiring harness that goes to the glow plugs. You won't believe what the little clip that snaps on the glow plug costs!
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

4genlgr

chris
unless your pulling my leg ;)
a glow plug is heating device used to assist in warming the air inside a diesel cylinder to aid starting when cold, usually 10* F and lower ----- WARNING---- do not use ether with glow plugs bad things can happen
this is my noncertified mechanic explanation

Meadows Miller

Gday

Genlgr Sorry I was mate I dont know how you blokes get thiings to work somtimes in that weather  ;) ;D we have them fitted as standard to alot of things down here but they'd only get used every so often during winter  ;) but then alot of gear i have used  of the gear dosnt even have them from the start  ;) Ive even shot one out of the head on a old 60s model TD15 drott loader  i was using for a bloke out the bush once  :o :o :) :) ??? ??? ::) ::) those old girls can be a pita to start sometimes  ;) :D :D :D
4TH Generation Timbergetter

4genlgr

 :D :D :D we're cool 8)
as far as startin the cat i would keep the glow plug on for a little longer or cycle them towarm things up some more  my JD 990 tractor has plugs nad when it's 0* it takes a couple of cycles to start


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