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Wood carriages

Started by bandmiller2, January 22, 2010, 10:40:51 AM

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bandmiller2

Glad to see so many interested in bringing back the old handset circular mills.Nothing wrong with wood, not as good as steel but still very usable.Most I've seen have a solid axle with babbit bearings morticed onto the beams.One wheel is a guide wheel and the outher is a flat wheel,if they are boath solid to the axle its real hard for them to boath turn the same distance per revolution their always seem to be a little slippage that leads to wear on the wheel or track.The best fix is to replace the babbit blocks with pillow block bearings and allow the flat wheel to turn independent on its axle.I put bronze bushings in the flat wheel and a grease fitting.The only turning is the correction between the wheels on the same axle.End play is very important the guide wheel locked to the axle clamped with boath pillow blocks gives you this, the flat wheel can float slightly on the axle.Good form to put a piece of steel flat stock between the pillow block and the bottom of the wood beam.Please don't consider me an authority on this stuff its just what I've descovered.Any comments that will help mill restorers welcome. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

bandmiller2

Too cold outside for this old guy to work hence time on the puter.When wooden carriages were popular the best wood was that dandy hard southern pine.You want a wood that is as stable as possible.You use what you can get, well seasoned timbers recut to true them work well.I used recut doug fir for the ways of my mill with a couple of coats of wood preserver and old black creasoat at the jionts and anywhere wood meets wood or metal.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

sawthemlogs

I like the way you think frank. when i rebuilt my handset i did use steel on the husk but on the carriage because of the weird configuration of the bearings it was easier to use wood chisel out the pockets for the bearings.your right on with the carriage wheels. i used 4 inch h beams for the carriage to ride on .Even though it was level both directions ...When i insalled carriage on  track bunks didnt come out level ..after doing some checking the flat wheels were slightly smaller than the grooved ones.as you said  they dont turn consistent with opposite side ..guess  reason for free wheel.i just added flat bar to h  beam to bring bunks up level.works great...i like to listen from the people with experience..take care
R.D.

bandmiller2

Good fix RD,circular mills would be in a bad way without shims,I always save small pieces of steel.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Frickman

I was around and sawed on wood mills until 1997 when I put in my current all-steel mill. The wood mills were good in their day and very economical but aren't really the best choice for a production mill. It really makes me smile though to go to an antique tractor show and see an old all wood handset mill sawing.

The wood mills are alot more demanding on maintanence than the steel mills. Wood splits, decays (even when under roof) and moves with the seasons. Also, anywhere you have wood joining steel tends to wear or compress over time, especially the frame rails where the headblocks set and where the wheel trucks mount. The old style solid axles were never my favorite either for the reasons mentioned. If you aren't sawing full-time on a mill and are willing to keep an eye on wear and alignment issues a wood handset mill is a great way to make lumber, especially if it is what you already have.  If you're sawing commercially a steel mill may be a better way to go just because of durability and alignment issues. Either way a handset circle mill is a fun way to cut wood.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

sigidi

Has anyone got pics of these things?

Would love to see...
Always willing to help - Allan

Dakota

Don't know if this is exactly what you are looking for, but here is a short clip of my Dad(87yrs.) operating a mill he rebuilt after finding it in a ditch in Wyoming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTEnFu0FmG8
Dave Rinker

Magicman

Dakota, that is a real treasure.  I liked the mill too.

Thanks for sharing.  My Dad would have been 100 next month.  I wish that I had a video of him.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

bandmiller2

A common problem with older circular mills is worn wheels and the guide rail they ride on.The rail is always worn most right near the saw.Many of the old mills use cast iron sections of rail, almost always cracked,and hard to find.If you luck out you can move them around giving you lightly worn rail near the saw.My mill uses mine car rail,had to remachine the guide wheels and matching the worn rail gave me fits.I wouldn't want to buy 40' of that mine rail new.Inverted heavy duty angle iron and "V" castor wheels wile not heavy enough for a modern heavy mill will give yoeman duty on a handset mill.I have even seen a mill that has operated for years that just used straight castors bolted to the bottom of a wood carriage.All the wheels on the same rail should be the same diameter,or at least shimmed to cary their share of the load.Weight lifter weights can be machined to replace wornout flat wheels,one of mine says Golds gym.You want no sideplay on your guide wheels.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

captain_crunch

How about a wooden Donkey to bring logs to your wooden mill



Brian
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

woodpeckerlips

I just rebuilt a 00 frick (wooden) it's itimidating at first. But really not that bad. I rebuilt everything but the carrage. I was running it last weekend and ran a big red oak off the off bearing end and crashed the carrage. Broke the beam closest to the operater just over a axle.  Put the carrage back on the track plated it and sawed out me 2 beams  (pine)to replace on the carrage. I let them dry for a while. Plane them. And plan on putting the new beam in the front a little latter. I'll just take it easy for a while. (I think I'll extend my track out on the off bearing end 10 feet to keep this from ever happening again too).  While I'm at it, I'm gonna put a stop in at the other end. I ran across a steel oo frick at a great price not long ago and almost bought it.  I've had a lot of fun rebuiding my wooden mill. Seams to cut really straight. (Spent a lot of care in alignment/and lead.) Just not able to call it quits on it. Maybe in a couple of years.

bandmiller2

WP lips,I was wondering how you made out with your mill.Most use some sort of spring to stop a runaway carriage.The carriage hitting the stop jars the mill pretty good.What i did was to dig a deep hole for a section of treated utility pole with a leaf spring verticle.It is not attached to the mill so no transfered shock.If I run the carriage into it,fires it right back,some use coil springs,old tires est. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Frickman

Woodpecker,

I sawed on a few mills where you could run the carriage off the end of the track, it wasn't hard to do. When I installed my current steel mill I built stops at each end that are patterned off the stops you see on railroad tracks. We put old car coil springs behind a plate and everything. It sure is nice knowing that I can't run the carriage off the tracks now.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Dave Shepard

Thanks for sharing that video Dakota. I like the carriage drive, variable speed and direction just by moving it across the plate, very neat. Looks like an old M, seems to have enough power. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bandmiller2

Dave ,thanks for bringing that up You couldn't get a much simpler feedworks.That disc drive principal is alive and well residing in most snowblowers and some yard tractors.DanG now I have to build something to use it.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Dakota

Dave Shepard,
Dad wore out an M in the first 20 years of powering the mill.  He replaced it with a rebuilt Super M.  That really made a difference.
Dakota
Dave Rinker

woodpeckerlips

BM2/ frickman,   thanks for the input.   I'm running a flat belt off a 3-71 detroit. I put poles in on each side and nailed up some slabs to keep the belt from getting the offbearer. Belt comes out to the end of the track. It's just a 2 bearing mandrel. Therefor not leaving much room for the offbearer.  I'm intertaining the V-belt conversion to give me more room. I'd like to figure out how to put a 10" tire on the power unit and slide it right up to the big flat belt pulley. But it would spin the wrong direction.left hand mill. I was considering hooking up a drive shaft. Then the speed would be to same as RPM's. Now I'm pondering a transfer case, but don't know what speed I'd end up with or how well it would hold up. Thought abought a rearend(4.10) hooked up with a drive shaft and turning the axle with the power unit. Power unit would be turned 90 degrees and way out the way.   What other contraptions have you guys seen on fricks other than V-belt and elect, that give more room?

ibbob

Cut the flat belt and get the motor up by the husk. 
Bob

bandmiller2

WP,what if you put the detroit on the backside of the mill and ran a shaft under the mill.Install V belts on your side of the mill to get the speed right and use a truck drive shaft and U joints to spin the shaft.That would also make it easier if you run the mill alone no long commute around the engine.You say your mill is left hand you'll have to figure your rotations.You could also mount a V pulley with a short shaft below your arbor and run a low driveline from the engine.Then build a low bridge over that shaft for crossing over and giving the offbearer some living room.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

woodpeckerlips

If I was to cut the flat belt would give me a little more room. Then the shaft from the power unit would be spinning at the back of your knees in a spot the offbearer would be working most.   The back of the mill is down hill and not ideal to put the power unit. If it was flater I'd like the idea of it being behind the mill and out the way.   V-belt conversion up close as I can is the way I'm heading I think.  Thanks for the ideas though.

jimparamedic

 


Heres my power unit chevy250 spiders welded in rear end one side runs mill other runs planer cut up saw ect ect

beenthere

Now there is a rose among thorns in that picture. She's cute.

Guarding the cooler, is she?  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

captain_crunch

Did you see the clip where the guy set motor at 90 degs of mill and used two tires running against each other to change rotation ?? I will see if I can remember where I seen it
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

jimparamedic

Shes my helper loves the sawdust pile and the worms and bugs she finds but when the mill is running shes with her nanna

Coon

Here's another old wooden mill from up in these parts.....













Kinda hard to see the mill with all the snow.

Brad.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

ibbob

Quote from: woodpeckerlips on January 27, 2010, 04:26:32 PM
If I was to cut the flat belt would give me a little more room. Then the shaft from the power unit would be spinning at the back of your knees in a spot the offbearer would be working most.   The back of the mill is down hill and not ideal to put the power unit. If it was flater I'd like the idea of it being behind the mill and out the way.   V-belt conversion up close as I can is the way I'm heading I think.  Thanks for the ideas though.

If ya got the pulleys for the  V belts that's the way to go.  If not you should be able to run the flat belt anywhere the V belts would.






That's about as close as we could get things.  One step back and the offbearer can clear the motor.
Bob

bandmiller2

Woodpecker,I'am sure you know big V sheves and belts are very expensive.Your looking at 5 or 6 belts preferably a matched set.I lucked out a friend cleaned out a mill supply house and gave me six "C" section belts new.I'd haunt junk yards or farm equip backlots.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

jimparamedic


captain_crunch

Yep that be the one kinda a neet set up and a slick way to change rotation
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

bandmiller2

Thats where the rubber meets the load.That is a slick cheap way to change rotation,but that setup uses a tractor PTO 540 rpm if hooked to a diesel power unit that saw would really sing.I wonder how it would work with a truck tire on the arbor and a smaller pulley or tire on the engine shaft.?? Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

york

Frank,there could be a problem with vibration..
Albert

bandmiller2

Your right Bert,a fella would probibly need a handfull of wheel weights and a hammer.Whats the friction between rubber and rubber??I know tires make good pulleys for flat belts,I've worked around mills that have done that.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Chico

Last wooden carriage I saw was over past Fishpharmer in Amite La I went to look at a job at a mill over there She was still cutting a fine line  an old Filer and Stowell rig
My Daughter My sailor MY HERO God Bless all the men and Women fighting for us today If you see one stop and thank them

bandmiller2

Alot of the heavily used old wood carriages the saw side timber gets worn away from the sawdust blasting it.Pieces of light angle iron over it will reduce the wear,if your not using it constantly its no worry.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

sawguyver

The carriage on my mill is pretty light. If I'm not careful rolling a big cant on the second turn  I can bounce it right off the track :o. It is heavy enough to be a pain to put back on though ::) When jacking it back on it racks and twist a whole lot,but once its back on all is good. Just as long as the rails are well supported and straight my lumber comes out just fine. No matter what material a mill is made of it can still move and has to be watched. With wood I'm sure you make more adjustments more often. And that's what wood is all about. 






whiskers

 



This carriage was rebuilt in '01 w/ pressure treated pine. It's served well under light use having been kept under an open shed. Next time around I'll use tube steel to take it into the next century.   
many irons in the fire.........

whiskers

 



This wooden carriage at Maine Maritime Museum really caught my eye. I don't recall ever seeing a track arraingement like this. In fact the entire operation (originally Percy & Small shipyard, Bath Maine) was impressive . Hope to spend an entire day there next time.
many irons in the fire.........

bandmiller2

Whiskers,you have a setup much like mine,I have a shed roof that covers the husk and carriage with boath ends under the sky shed.Did you see what was under the carriage on that maine mill seems a$$ backwards I'd hate to have to line up and adjust all those castors.As I've said before everything has been tried years ago on the old mills,mayby it was to get around patents when their were so many mill builders. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

I run a couple of Jackson Lumber Harvester mills that were portable.  They weren't a wooden carriage, but instead of a track, they run on bearings.  It worked really well. 

On the Maine mill, I wonder how they keep everything in line.  Those casters would be a problem in the turning area, as they would be prone to breaking.  The bearings on the Jackson would break, especially during cold weather turning.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

whiskers

 



Frank C. I did get a pic of the husk and a little of the carriage works. I'll try to put it up next . With your mill so exposed to the northern elements  I imagine that makes for some cooool sawing this time of year.
many irons in the fire.........

whiskers

 



Frank C  The barricades are set in such a way that it's difficult to get decent pics. It's a 42" blade and 43' of track, if it's called track. This mill is on the second story and the power was from below. Possibly steam driven though I don't recall seeing a boiler or an engine. The overall operation must have been impressive
many irons in the fire.........

bandmiller2

Whiskers, your right about the cool this time of the year theirs a decided draft through the mill building.But I'am retired and don't do business with this mill, just me and friends milling, so I just waite till its comfy. Thats a rack and pinion drive carriage,from what I can see,My friction feed is the same as your photo.Many of our old New England mills went through several power transformations,many started as water power ,later steam [until the boiler got wheezy] then engine or electric. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

whiskers

Frank C, My shed is evolving, just moved and first concern is about rain and sun. Retired too and for the most part sawing salvage logs for pleasure. Pine beetle infestations thrive here so folks in town often clear their lot after one tree problem. They call I haul, sometimes they bring um. Tramp metal and free logs you know the routine so I'm in no hurry sawing.
many irons in the fire.........

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