Timberharvester 3 phase mill advise

cubdriver55 · January 04, 2010, 09:47:33 PM

I have had an old Fredrick mill for years but I am new to band mills. I purchased a Timberharvester 30HTE25 3 phase electric mill. The mill is a 2002 model that was only run 1.2 hrs. The owner passed away and his wife finally decided to sell the mill. I want to change this mill over to diesel. My question is how hard is this and is it worth it? I have a 30 H.P. phase converter which is too small to run this mill but could I add an additional idler motor and run the mill this way? I think this is what the original owner had in mind because the mill also came with a 40 H.P. electric motor strapped to it on a pallet. The only thing I don't like about this is the mill is no longer mobil. The other option is a large 3 phase generator. I am looking for advise, please let me know what you think? Thanks Steve

backwoods sawyer · January 04, 2010, 09:55:54 PM

Where you located? The mill down the road from me just pulled a 62hp Perkins off his Cook mill and converted it to 3 phase.

cubdriver55 · January 04, 2010, 10:04:54 PM

I am in Virginia but it is a possibility. I could check on shipping. Thanks

bandmiller2 · January 05, 2010, 08:35:50 AM

I think the timberharvestor functions are hydraulic if so a repower would be practical.I would try to find the same mill with an engine and study its setup.The outher option you mentioned is not a bad one, big used diesel generators are not too hard to find and could power alot of shop equipment and serve as standby power also.Frank C.

Magicman · January 05, 2010, 08:52:00 AM

cubdriver, I can't help you with your question, but I can say......Welcome to The Forestry Forum..... 8)

cubdriver55 · January 05, 2010, 08:54:02 AM

Another thought does anyone have any idea what it would cost and what would be involved in running this mill with my 30 HP phase converter and the extra 40hp motor that came with the mill turned into an additional phase converter? It seeems like there are a lot of advantages to electric and it seems ashame to start changing everything on a fairly new mill that was set up at the factory. Thanks Steve

Magicman · January 05, 2010, 09:12:43 AM

Here is a thread on 3 phase that ran a couple of weeks ago.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,40926.0.html

Brad_S. · January 05, 2010, 09:53:35 AM

I recall seeing a photo at the TH office of a portable electric mill. The guy had a genset mounted on the flatbed truck he used to tow the mill with.

WH_Conley · January 05, 2010, 10:17:53 AM

That sounds like the best idea. If you did enough portable sawing to justify it, a truck with a utility bed with the generator on the back. Plenty of storage for anything sawmill related, all would be close if needed, a small repair part or tool. Would have to do enough to justify another vehicle, insurance and tags. Would be real nice to have the motor noise someplace else.

bandmiller2 · January 05, 2010, 04:37:24 PM

Cub55,what size three phase motor is on the TH?? Sounds like you tried to run it with your converter already.I don't think running two converters would be best way to do it.Possibly make one converter using the 40 hp.Its hard to beat an electric mill especally in a building.Frank C.

cubdriver55 · January 05, 2010, 05:04:47 PM

It is a 25 HP motor on the mill. I have talked to some phase converter manufacturers and they say you can not mix phase converter brands . I have not tried my converter but it is too small it is a 30 HP converter. My converter is a tempco and they say if you use the same brand you can keep adding as many as you need so I might buy a 20 HP from them for around $1200. That would give me 50 HP which should start and run a 25 HP mill. What are your thoughts?

rs1626 · January 05, 2010, 05:14:47 PM

I have a 30 hp. digital phase converter and it starts a 20hp. real easy have you tried to start the 25 hp with you 30?

jesse · January 05, 2010, 10:46:46 PM

i changed a 30ht25 from a 24 h.p. linamar to a 46 h.p. deutz oil cooled diesel have not got to run much since repower still have to get a throttle solined to control the throttle from control station engine bolted right in with no cutting or welding on saw head i do not know if the electric mill head is the same or not

bandmiller2 · January 06, 2010, 07:58:55 AM

Cub55,I'd try that converter you have unload the mill engine as much as you can,those units are protected and allow for start load,did you ask the manufacturer about it.?Frank C.

cubdriver55 · January 06, 2010, 11:33:46 AM

Thanks for the advice I am going to try the converter I have and see. It might take me a couple days to get it hooked up but I will let you know. The mill has 4 wires A black white red and green. I assume the green is ground but do you know which of the other 3 is the hot leg or artificial leg? The manufacturer has gone out of business so I can not ask them. Thanks Steve

cubdriver55 · January 06, 2010, 06:47:49 PM

I got the mill hooked up temperary today. I am not sure if the converter is too small or my power is too weak or both. I do not have the building where the mill will be set up ready with elec yet so the mill is stored in a different building for now. The building is about 500 ft from the house and is served by a 100 amp breaker with #2 triplex running from the house. I know this is too far for this type of load and there has to be a big voltage drop. The voltage is ok with a normal load. I started the converter then the motor without the blade engaged, just the hydrolics running. It built up to speed but the lights dimmed and stayed very dim until it fially tripped the breaker in about 10 seconds. I found out the lights were dim in the house the whole time also. Here are my thoughts. I think there was a drop in voltage due to the small wire and long distance it was traveling and that was compounded by the converter being too small and not having enough amps so it dropped the voltage evem more which increased the amp draw on the service. I am not sure why the lights stayed dim in the house also though since it has a 400 amp service. Let me know what you think. I may not know until I am able to get it on a bigger service. Thanks Steve

bandmiller2 · January 06, 2010, 09:31:12 PM

Steve we're getting too many variables,I'am no electrician but a 30hp rated converter should start a 25hp motor.Your probibly right about the wire size and the long run.Your dealing with some serious current draw,I'd waite until you get it home before I made any changes and try it with your power.Possibly when you set it up have someone else doublecheck the connections unless your sure their right.Frank C.

Meadows Miller · January 08, 2010, 08:34:15 AM

Gday

Welcome to the forum Cub ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

With your mill as it is a production mill when they are setup well ;) id go with the genset as what will happen down the track is if you setup a phase converter you will be at the limit from the start mate ;) what happens usually is you will decide you need an edger ,planer and whole lotta other things later on to make the mill more productive ;) that are cheaper and easier to find in 3 ph trust me ;) :D ;D ;D

if you go say a genset about 2 to 3 times the size you need for a start you will have the opertunity to add things without any of the dramas of finding a way to power it also if you go alittle larger the fuel consumption will be alittle heavy but it will be marginal over time to what power upgrades will cost you in the long runn Its just an idea but i do think it would be the way to go Mate ;) ;D

Regards Chris

motohed · January 08, 2010, 06:03:42 PM

Quote from: cubdriver55 on January 06, 2010, 06:47:49 PM
I got the mill hooked up temperary today. I am not sure if the converter is too small or my power is too weak or both. I do not have the building where the mill will be set up ready with elec yet so the mill is stored in a different building for now. The building is about 500 ft from the house and is served by a 100 amp breaker with #2 triplex running from the house. I know this is too far for this type of load and there has to be a big voltage drop. The voltage is ok with a normal load. I started the converter then the motor without the blade engaged, just the hydrolics running. It built up to speed but the lights dimmed and stayed very dim until it fially tripped the breaker in about 10 seconds. I found out the lights were dim in the house the whole time also. Here are my thoughts. I think there was a drop in voltage due to the small wire and long distance it was traveling and that was compounded by the converter being too small and not having enough amps so it dropped the voltage evem more which increased the amp draw on the service. I am not sure why the lights stayed dim in the house also though since it has a 400 amp service. Let me know what you think. I may not know until I am able to get it on a bigger service. Thanks Steve

The load is way to heavy for a one hundred amp breaker with that size wire , at that distance . You have to shorten the distance , you also may have to use a start capciter to amplify the start voltage . I would see what the imput voltage is on the motor there should be a tag .

sparky · January 09, 2010, 04:41:19 PM

Cub55,
You mentioned that your house had a 400 amp service. You will need to find out what size transformer the utility company installed to provide your electrical power. I doubt that there is a 400 amp source backing it up. I had a 25 kilowatt transformer in my front yard that served 8 houses. Everyone thought they were doing fine because they each had 150 amp services. Each house had 13.5 amps available, at 230 volts, as their share. The transformer overloaded and blew fuses when the air conditioning season came along. The transformer was replaced with a 37 kilowatt unit that provides 20.4 amps to each user. That has provided reliable service for 20 years. The utility companies prefer to install a transformer that is just marginally adequate to handle the load in order to minimize their costs. You may need to pay a premium to get a large enough transformer.

I would suggest that you take the effort to power your mill with an electric motor if the utility can provide sufficient power to your site, and if you intend the mill to be stationary. Three phase motors are less expensive to operate than a diesel and you have fewer maintenance issues to contend with.

Sparky

Dave Shepard · January 09, 2010, 05:25:08 PM

At one of the mills I run, we have a rotary converter capable of running 60 HP, but it will only start 20. There should be a tag on the converter. If I were buying a new mill I would be electric, and if going portable, I'd set up a truck with service body and genset. Not ideal for everyone, but that's what I'd do. Running a diesel mill portable would certainly be easier, however.

bandmiller2 · January 09, 2010, 07:11:28 PM

There must be some sort of soft start device to reduce the high amp draw on startup.Frank C.

Larry · January 09, 2010, 08:15:19 PM

Just a shade tree electrician...but my thoughts.

With your load, gauge of wire, and the 500 feet from the house to the shed your far over any reasonable voltage drop, for most any motor load. Now it gets even worse...you need to add in the voltage drop from the house to the transformer. Google up a voltage drop calculator and you can readily see just how far down the voltage drops.

In my limited experience with homemade RPC's the idler will start the same size motor. No idea for how long or what the long term effects would be...might let out the magic smoke. A few FAQ's here that may be helpful.

http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfm/fa/pages.main/pageID/3

One solution might be for the power company to set another transformer outside your shed.

Dimming lights in your house may not be a concern, but if you dim the lights in your neighbors house that can be a really big deal...and cause for the power company to disconnect your service. Some of the Coop power systems are marginal at best. I have a few old 5 HP repulsion induction motors that will easily dim lights.

Again my advice is worth exactly what ya paid for it...