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Management of 54 acres in central PA

Started by eternaltraveler, December 23, 2009, 10:12:22 PM

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eternaltraveler

I have about 54 acres of mostly woodland in central PA.  10-12 acres are open fields with the remainder being forested.

The forested portion consists of mostly hardwoods, with maples and red oaks predominate, and about a 3rd conifers, the overwhelming majority of those being hemlocks.

My current short term plan is to plant about 4 acres of the field with white oaks, black cherry, black walnut, and also american chestnut (I'm interested in establishing a back-cross orchard to assist in breeding for blight resistance and genetic diversity).  The trees from these 4 acre plots would be from some superior strains of the above species (with the chestnut that means they won't die quite as easily) and would form a basis for the longer term plan for the property.

The longer term plan is to manage the woodland.  Thin in areas as needed (some areas need that badly now) and have timber harvests every few decades.  As timber is harvested slowly replace it with superior strains of lumber trees, and american chestnut (i've found a few root sprouts of american chestnut on the property, so i know it belongs there).

Timber was last harvested about 20 years ago, and it might be ready for another harvest within a decade.  It was not however ever really managed.

My questions are

What do i do with the hemlock?  Is it worth anything?  Should I cut it all down to make room for hardwoods?  The primary reason I think there as much of it as there is is because hardwoods were harvested about 20 years ago, and maybe 40 years before that, but the hemlock was not, and its been allowed to grow in.

What do you think of using a couple acres of the plot too start growing some more commercially valuable species, experiment a little, and slowly fill in the holes left in from timber harvests or hemlock cull?

I also have personal interest in reestablishing the american chestnut.   It wouldn't hurt if its worth something in 50 years or whatever, but that isn't the primary motivation in this regard.

My primary motivation is to manage it for the long term in a sustainable fashion while making a few bucks where reasonable.  I'd be an old man indeed when the first of the trees I plant would be ready for harvest, but i could certainly benefit personally from managing whats there already and I tend to think in the long term beyond that as as well.

I love your forum and I look forward to participating.

cheers!

Ron Wenrich

Hardwood plantations are a tough road in PA.  There are lots of invasive species, and you have the deer problem in lots of areas.  Putting the fields into chestnut or walnut may be viable.  A chestnut orchard and working with the Chestnut Foundation might be workable.

Before you consider plantations, you have to look at the site.  Central PA is a large area.  Certain trees do well in different areas.  Walnut needs a pretty good site.  That means somewhere close to the better soils.  Same goes for cherry.  If you get outside the mountain areas of central PA, then the cherry quality slips rapidly.

Hemlock is worth something, just not much.  It sounds like your woodlot has suffered from diameter limit cutting over the past few harvests.  You can cut out the hemlocks, especially in the understory.  They are a very tolerant species and often found in climax forests.

Planting in openings have their problems.  It all depends on how much care you plan to give those trees.  Your opening has to be large enough to support the more intolerant species, and you will have lots of problems with invasion of the natural growing stuff.  Too large of opening will have lots of poke and blackberries.  You will have to contend with stump sprouts and the more advanced regeneration. 

You might be looking at more of a timber stand improvement than a harvest.  You have to figure out your crop trees and work from there.  If you don't have crop trees, then you might have to start over.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Magicman

First, eternaltraveler....Welcome to FF... :)

I'm not an accountant, but just one small piece of advice that I got in a forestry seminar.   Hardwood reforestation is a slow long term situation.  Never make the remarks; "I'll never live to cut the trees,  I'm planting this for my children/grandchildren, I just want the place to look pretty".   According to the IRS, remarks like this will put you in a "Hobby" category and you will loose tax advantages.

I'm 66 years old and planted 5,000 oaks last year.  I'm planting 1,000 this year and will plant 1,000 each year for the next 3 years.  It will take 30-40 years for them to mature and I'm going to log every one of them..... ;)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

eternaltraveler

Quote"I'll never live to cut the trees,  I'm planting this for my children/grandchildren, I just want the place to look pretty"

I would never make remarks like that.  I'm a scientist working on aging research.  I'm going to live forever ;)

eternaltraveler

QuotePlanting in openings have their problems.  It all depends on how much care you plan to give those trees.  Your opening has to be large enough to support the more intolerant species, and you will have lots of problems with invasion of the natural growing stuff.  Too large of opening will have lots of poke and blackberries.  You will have to contend with stump sprouts and the more advanced regeneration.

I can give a fair amount of care.  The lot is not all that large.  I was just camping there last weekend (fun in the snow and I got to save a lost puppy).  The next few years will likely require more care as there hasn't been any in at least decades if ever.  That being said there are still areas of nice tall straight fairly large trees (seen with my admittedly non-expert eye).

eternaltraveler

QuoteIf you get outside the mountain areas of central PA, then the cherry quality slips rapidly.

It's in Elk county on what passes for in this area of the country as mountains ;) (I lived in the rockies for a few years, still have a house there).  Thats part of the reason I'm looking to start planting a couple acres of the fields with several different species, and see what grows well, and learn about how to plant and take care of trees in the process.

QuoteHemlock is worth something, just not much

If its worth enough for someone to come and cut them all down that would be something.  Otherwise I'll do it over the next few years.  No real rush though.  I'm working on getting myself educated enough in forestry to make smart decisions.

QuoteIt sounds like your woodlot has suffered from diameter limit cutting over the past few harvests

yes it has.  The harvest my grandfather had 20 or so years ago was a diameter limit cut.  I understand how that can over time impair the genetics of a stand.

QuoteYou might be looking at more of a timber stand improvement than a harvest.

this is the primary goal at present.  The land was my grandfather's.  It's now in my father's hands.  His plans don't extend beyond building a retirement home on some of the open land and maybe having a few pieces of livestock as a hobby.  I've more or less taken over the woodland management aspect.  Some kind of harvest in the next 20 years might be a good idea for his sake, but i'm looking forward over the next 100 years or more myself.

Woolywolf

It might be wise to go ahead and get what you can from the hemlock, or else the hemlock woolly adelgid might take care of the problem for you. It's already moved into Central PA and is moving west across the state.  :(

Ron Wenrich

So, do you have a management plan and an inventory?  You can't tell who's playing unless you have a program. 

A good management plan would cover everything you're attempting to do.  It should include a soils map, maps of the different compartments within the forest, an inventory of those compartments, and recommendations on how to handle them.  Anyone who says that they know what to cut without having any data is just practicing forestry by the seat of their pants. 

I've heard the phrase "timber stand improvement" thrown about by a lot of different people.  Its surprising that some folks think that any cutting of timber is an improvement.  A lot of times TSI is an undertaking of a non-commercial variety.  It usually gets rid of undesirable trees to favor crop trees.  Many times, they have little to no commercial value. 

Diameter limit cutting = silvicultural suicide.  It may take some time to reverse the problems from multi-generations of this type of cutting.  I've seen some successful uses of it, but a lot more that weren't.  I've also seen a lot of selective cuttings that were just as disastrous, maybe more. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Magicman

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 24, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
So, do you have a management plan and an inventory? 

Talk to your County Forester.  Find out what species of trees are recommended for the soil types, etc.  Take the steps to have the place certified by the American Tree Farm System.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

rocksnstumps

ET,
You can find soil maps for your area and what likes to grow in them here
http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

Once you know the specific names for the soils in your area you can always google them with your state PA in the same search. I find the info at the state level more useful than the big government data base to search through. In my homestate of Wisconsin, there's a pdf document I found with a good breakdown of about ten different regions and growing conditions.

As an example, on my land there is no oak of any kind but there are some just a few miles away in a county park. Using that info, I found that the site index for red oak for the particular sandy loam I have on most of my ridge is about the best there is for the northern half of the state. Just the past harvesting practices wiped it out and now lots of elm, ironwood and a fair amount of hard maple. Needless to say, I've planted some RO out in the open areas and tubed 'em due to many deer and they have done quite well if you can keep the mice nests out of the tube bottom and the deer out of the top

eternaltraveler

QuoteET,
You can find soil maps for your area and what likes to grow in them here
http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

great link.  Thanks

It's Hartleton channery silt loam, and wharton silt loams.

eternaltraveler

QuoteSo, do you have a management plan and an inventory?  You can't tell who's playing unless you have a program.

not as of yet.  I'm really just getting started in looking to manage the land.  Just finished reading  "working with your woodland" which was recommended to me. 

WDH

Magicman's suggestion to sign up the property in the American Tree Farm System is a good one.  One part of the certification process is to develop a management plan.  Like Ron says, that is crucial to establishing priorities for your management.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Scott

Ditto! to that advice. Also include saving as much of the hemlock inclusions as possible for wildlife habitat diversity and thermal and escape cover.
~Ron

crtreedude

Quote from: eternaltraveler on December 24, 2009, 09:49:12 AM
Quote"I'll never live to cut the trees,  I'm planting this for my children/grandchildren, I just want the place to look pretty"

I would never make remarks like that.  I'm a scientist working on aging research.  I'm going to live forever ;)

So is my daughter, but I told her if she figures out how to make me live forever, she isn't going to inherit anything...  ;)
So, how did I end up here anyway?

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