Comparing heating sources

[Qweaver]

I've spent a lot of time trying to come up with good info on comparing efficiency for heating systems.  I ended up with a pellet stove and a geothermal heatpump.  But the more that I look,  the more confused I become.  The Jan/Feb Grit has a pretty good article comparing all types of heating systems except Geo and some of the conclusions surprised me.  The cheapest fuel in cost per million BTU was coal. ($4.01) Then wood ($9.09), Pellets ($12.12), Gas ($13.80), Fuel oil ($16.94)  then everything else over $25. 
I find it hard to believe that wood is cheaper than pellets and that gas is not much more than pellets. 
I use one bag of pellets a day on average. I paid $4.40 per bag this year so that's about $132 per month plus the electricty to run the blowers.  Not real cheap.  I should really shut down the pellet stove and just run the Geo.
I just wonder how good the published figures actually are.  But for me the bottom line is that I like how the pellet stove and the heat pump work together to make a really cozy house with little effort on my part.  We'll see how the electric bill is and that will tell me more.

[splitter]

I think alot depends on where you live and what you have access to. Coal burns very hot but you can't get it in my area. I have plenty of wood so I have a outside wood furnace that heats my house and provides hot water. It also depends on how much time you can put toward getting your fuel, your age may also be a factor. Nothing is cheap, but hydro may be the cheapest if you live in a area where you could put in a system. I visited a person who had a hydro system and he produced enough electricty for about three homes. His meter ran backwards and he has never caught up, maintenance was minimum. Splitter

[genesis5521]

I'm assuming your bags weigh 40 pounds, so 50 bags would make a ton. Your cost of $4.40 per bag is right in line with $220.00 a ton for pellets in my area, and so is your usage.  Before I put a Napoleon high efficiency wood burner in my living room, I checked out wood stoves and pellet stoves. I forget where I read it, but I found an article which recommended wood over pellets, as the cost of pellets could rise and fall with the price of other utilities. The same could be said if you buy firewood. But I make my own firewood, so my cost is very low. But the effort required to make it is very high. I know a few older folks who replaced their wood stoves with pellet stoves cause they were getting up in age, and just couldn't make their own firewood anymore, and didn't wanna mess with firewood anymore. Pellets are clean and easy to handle. I'm 64. At some point I may switch to a pellet stove. I wanted a blower on my stove, but the installers said that because of the layout of my house, I really didn't need one. Now I like it when a company tells me the truth, rather than making a few more bucks off me. You got what you got and you'll make the best of it. I don't think you made a bad choice.

[Brucer]

I find it hard to believe that wood is cheaper than pellets and that gas is not much more than pellets. 

Usually when they come up with these numbers, they assume that the wood stove is burning well-seasoned wood and is operating at optimum efficiency. Well-seasoned wood is nice, but not everyone can supply/produce it all the time. "Optimum efficiency" may put out too much heat or not enough, so you might have to run a wood stove at well below optimum.

With a pellet stove you get a wide range of outputs at optimum efficiency and you don't have to worry about seasoning your fuel ;D.

[moonhill]

As comparison I try to think if every thing shut down what would be the source of energy/heat?  The simpler the product the more efficient.  Wood from the back forty is the solution I come up with. 

In addition I see most houses as being too big and inefficient.  They should be kept to a minimum and well insulated.  There are many other factor as well which could and should be looked at.  The position of the dwelling as an example.  How about where it is located in relation to the other needs one may require, trips to town for an example, all part of efficiency.   We have to take in the whole picture.

Tim

[moonhill]

Maybe something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozX_nt5A4o&feature=related

We have to keep that global warming in mind : You could do it for other reasons as well.

Tim

[woodmills1]

the cheap secret


have lotsa free wood


go outside many times and put it ina stove


save so much oil and gas money

pay for outdoor appliance in 2 years

did I say lotsa wood, go outside often?

[tughill]

To accurately compare heating costs, you must use a chart that shows the BTU (amount of energy) of a given amount of fuel, (tons of pellets, gallons of fuel oil, etc) and come up with  a cost per BTU of energy, based on local cost of each type of fuel.

http://www.readingstove.com/support_chart.html

This page shows just such a chart.  Also keep in mind that burning wood is probably less than 70% efficient meaning that 30%  of the heat goes up the chimney, or is needed to dry the wood in the stove before it will actually combust.

Electric heat is nearly 100% efficient, because it requires no chimney, all heat produced heats the house.

Oil and gas, depend on the boiler, furnace type, but are probably above 95%, definitely above 90%.

Pellet heat is also quite efficent, so that needs to be considered.

I burn wood, with electric heat as a supplement, or is used when I'm away, but I have municipal electric that is quite cheap.

I like wood pellets and I'm considering putting in a pellet boiler when I build my new workshop.  The other advantages I see with pellets are that they are locally american made, shouldn't have big future price swings like fossil fuel, clean and with a large hopper and automated feeder, they are very little work to keep the heat going.

[tughill]

And personally, I think burning all that 'free' wood comes at a pretty high cost.  I have several thousand $$ invested in chainsaws, woodsplitter, tractors dozers, fuel, etc to cut split and burn all the 'free' wood...not to mention labor, dirt in the cellar from wood, space that wood takes up in the cellar to get it really dry....

I mostly burn wood to get rid of it...I am cutting to improve my farm, and woodlot.  Perhaps I should sell the wood and buy pellets?  I'd probably be $$ ahead.

[DouginUtah]

You might like to download my BTU comparison Excel spreadsheet, where you can insert your actual costs, from:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,39977.msg576183.html#msg576183

Someday when I have a lucid moment I might add a column "Cost/MMBTUs". Too many cobwebs to do it today.  ;D


(I'd sure like to buy a gallon of electricity in Tughill's link. "Fuel Unit Cost $/Gal."  :D  :D  :D )

[beenthere]

I expect pellets as fuel to fluctuate very close to the oil and gas prices.
Just can't imagine a pellet supplier not setting prices relative to the other available fuels, and less on how cheap or efficient it is to produce the pellets. Competition may enter in here, but not until there are plenty of suppliers out there to choose from.  :
Just my WAG

Burning wood pellets takes me back to the 50's when folks would get coal delivered by the ton, and dumped into a coal bin under the porch. Then my job was to shovel it and put it in a stoker (bin with auger) that would auger the coal into the furnace on demand. Had to remove the clinkers, shake the ashes, and carry out them out in metal bushel baskets. I'm betting the BTU's per volume of delivered fuel were much higher for the coal than for pellets. And other than that, pretty much the same.

[woodmills1]

my free wood is all residual to my business, stuff I cannot sell or cut on the sawmill.  All of my equipment is supported by the business and I would gladly spend the labor time to save the $4500 or so a year I would be spending on oil and propane.

[Jasperfield]

I have a new pellet stove that I bought from a dealer. It was his display demo unit. I've never used it and should probably sell it.

Pellet stove operating cost should also include electricity. Albeit a small amount.

And when the power is off, the stove is not far behind it.

However, the idea of clean, pelletized & bagged, readily available, and easily stored fuel is certainly attractive especially when combined with thermostatically controlled heat.

I, too, agree that we will see all heat sources priced equivalently on a BTU basis; And will see all energy priced equivalently on a kw (or similar) basis. It's coming.

[moonhill]

One can look at all the charts they want, then select the most efficient unit and install it in a hot house with two layers of plastic and it still won't be efficient.  A large part which needs to be assessed if the structure itself.  Everyones abilities, needs and wants are different.   You can not say one is worse due to the dirty, labor intensive "free wood" aspect that is pure perspective.  As pointed out when the power goes out, for any numerous reasons, most systems fail, with one exception.  Sure, look at the charts but don't stop there. 

We have become addicted to an easy life style and it comes with a cost.  If things should fall apart, for any numerous reasons, we will be in deep doo doo.   I think it boils down to how prepared you are to pay the cost.  Take for example hurricane Katrina, things went bad in a matter of days. 

I like how Qweaver says "with little effort on my part", that explains people. 

Tim

[Jasperfield]

At some of the quick-lube oil change businesses I've seen different types of (commercially produced) oil burning heaters that are fueled with old motor oil they've drained during the course of business.

They are fan forced and electrically fired.

I think those are the neatest things even if they use electricity.

[red oaks lumber]

the only fuel i see that won't go up in price like all other fuels is, the firewood you cut yourself. a person will never be able to heat your home in the winter for "free".just how much are we willing to spend to keep warm?. that answer will be different for all of us.
for me not being dependant on marketable fuels. gas, elec, pellets. my heating costs should remain close to the same every year.

[tughill]

Well,  like I said I burn wood, lots of it, but I just think it's not accurate to say that it's free.  And I do have a backup system in place, so If I go away for a few days my pipes won't freeze.

Ultimately the cost of firewood has gone up as other fuel sources have gone up, just because price is sometimes determined as 'whatever the market will bear', and "cheap' is just relative to the alternatives.

Even if you burn wood that you have available for 'free' that wood has a sort of 'opportunity cost'.  Meaning that, potentially you could sell that wood at a market price and use the $$ for some other purpose.  So even if the wood is free, it has value, and you can't ignore that value.

If in your woodlot you could dig 6 inches in the ground and turn up gold bars for 'free' would you stack them up to make a chimney for your house?  No, you would sell them for a lot of $$, and move somewhere warm where you didn't need any heat, like your own private island in the tropics.

[stonebroke]

That is how I think of my trees ,just gold on the stump waiting to be harvested.

Stonebroke

[Paul_H]

Even if you burn wood that you have available for 'free' that wood has a sort of 'opportunity cost'.  Meaning that, potentially you could sell that wood at a market price and use the $$ for some other purpose.

We raised our house and built a floor under it 9 years ago and doubled the size.Before we had done that,our annual heating bill(1996-97) on propane was $1800,and the following year was just over $2400.We bought a little woodstove and set it where the propane furnace had stood and burned about 5 cords per year(valued then at $150 per cord)
When we raised the house and added better windows,doors and insulation our consumption rose to 7-8 cords per year.
If I would have bought the wood in 96 and 97 it would have cost $750 at market price with a savings of at least $1000.As it was,I was cutting the wood at work when possible and bringing it home so the savings were greater.
If I had taken that same cordwood and sold it to buy another fuel source,it would have made for a long cold winter.

[woodmills1]

The real difference buring my free wood in my outdoor furnace is that we are warm, spending fuel money we used to be chilly

[Tim Crowley]

Last year, we spent $9,000 heating our farmhouse with oil.  In the spring I installed a CB eclassic 2300.  I purchased 22 cords of wood (10, split and delivered, and 12 in log length which we blocked, split, and stacked).  IF (and I'm confident it won't happen) we were to burn every stick of that 22 cords, the total cost for heat THIS winter will be $3,000.  What I suspect will happen is, we'll burn about 11 cords or $1,500 worth of wood.  Now, of course, there is the cost of the boiler, however, two things I'm confident about:  we're WARM using the OWB, and the cost of the boiler will be covered in MAX three years, if not two.  We're just loving it.  Learning curve has been steep, but I'm paying more attention to my heating system and therefore know more about it than I ever had before.  Suffice to say, however, it has been this very forum that has made this transition possible.   Tim

[woodmills1]

and don't ya just love it out there on a clear night staring at Orion or marveling over the lighting power of a half moon............and we are warm :P

[moonhill]

Are those typical cordage number for OWBs?  How much of this depends on the size of and age of the house?

If you are using that much wood is you house new or old, large or small? 

Tim

[Tim Crowley]

Tim, my house is approx. 6000 sq. feet, built in 1860, three floors, stone wall basement under half the house and crawl space under half.  Insulation is good on half (renovated completely in 1990) and very poorly insulated on the other half.  The new half is baseboard. The old half is hot air.  The OWB covers both systems and the domestic hot water.  I'm in Vermont.  It's been a relatively mild winter thus far with temps. tonight dipping from 28 to 18.  Tomorrow night = 1!  We've hovered around zero a few times this year, but we've yet to have our annual 10-20 below zero, two-week cold snap.  Anyway, I'm figgerin' about 11-12 cords this winter.  I could be wrong.  Could be 13.  If so, total cost: about 1,800 dollars.  Last winter I burned 1,800 GALLONS of oil at over $4.00/gallon.  This year I would have burned 1,800 gallons at $2.75 +.  The constant, of course, tends to be the number of gallons.  The wildcard is the price. 
Tim

[woodmills1]

my house is a series of additions built behind the 4 room colonial from 1830's.

no insulation in the colonial rock basement, next is the kitchen, basically on dirt, with 2 rooms above with little or no insulation, third is a 40 foot living room with 3 rooms above, wall and ceiling insulated, floor over crawl space the rodents pulled all insulation down, last is the studio 20 by 30 on unisulated slab with wall and ceiling insulation

4300 sg ft total

hot air furnace is under the front room of the colonial, duct runs 25 feet across front then some 65 feet out under the kitchen and living room, no insulation on any of the duct work.


spent $3200 5 winters ago to be chilly and burned 7 cord in 2 stoves to keep from shivering constantly

I figure on using around 30 cord about 60% pine and poplar,  10% hardwood slabs, rest good partially seasoned hardwood

I could probably cut that in half using 38 inch long round hardwood 10 inch dia and under, but the stove helps me dispose of stuff I can't make any other money on.

[rpote]

Tim, my house is approx. 6000 sq. feet, built in 1860, three floors, stone wall basement under half the house and crawl space under half.  Insulation is good on half (renovated completely in 1990) and very poorly insulated on the other half.  The new half is baseboard. The old half is hot air.  The OWB covers both systems and the domestic hot water.  I'm in Vermont.  It's been a relatively mild winter thus far with temps. tonight dipping from 28 to 18.  Tomorrow night = 1!  We've hovered around zero a few times this year, but we've yet to have our annual 10-20 below zero, two-week cold snap.  Anyway, I'm figgerin' about 11-12 cords this winter.  I could be wrong.  Could be 13.  If so, total cost: about 1,800 dollars.  Last winter I burned 1,800 GALLONS of oil at over $4.00/gallon.  This year I would have burned 1,800 gallons at $2.75 +.  The constant, of course, tends to be the number of gallons.  The wildcard is the price. 
Tim

Tim, my house in Ticonderoga is about same configuration (the guy who had it built was the engineer on the Champlain Bridge they demoed yesterday!) and I averaged about 1800 gallons per year as well. Last year we were about 10 full cord but this year I redid the piping with ThermoPEX and we're keeping the EC2300 a little lower at 183. Two water/water heat exchangers - first to the water recirc on the oil boiler (50 plate heatex) and then discharge water from heatex goes to second 35 plate unit to heat domestic hot water - we have "abundant" hot water for showers, etc. and it's HOT. We're looking at probably around 8-9 cord this winter, maybe less - no more than $1700 per year for heat. It seems to be lots more efficient and we're only filling once per day or every 18 hours if colder. Although with cold snaps we see increase. I had my oil tank filed last week as backup - 140 gallon at 2.65 - ouch! I hate even paying that much for anything other then wood. PS - do you have the dual fuel? I had propane tank filled also this week and it cost me about $230 to top it off. Nice for restarting boiler and to give it a kick start raising temp quickly and avoiding slow startup from cold start. Course, we save a lot on propane when we just stay on wood but I take it down about once/month for a good cleaning and that seems to do the trick to get it back up to temp quickly. javascript:void(0); Keep us informed on your unit - glad we've taken a combined 3600 gallons of oil out of "circulation".

[tughill]

Wow...I didn't realize you guys all lived in huge mansions ;D...my house is about 800 sq. ft. well insulated, and I have electric baseboard and a small old iron woodstove in the cellar.  I use the woodstove to keep the electric bill down...it got up to about 80$ a month a couple times when I ran out of wood a couple years ago.  I cannot imagine trying to heat a 6000 sq. ft. house in vermont...I guess it's probably a bit colder up here, and I live on top of the hill so wind is a huge factor in sweeping away the heat in winter.

Next question is what actual temp. do you keep the house...I like mine about 64F...much hotter and I sweat like crazy coming in from outside, especially when it's below zero, then I feel cold.

[moonhill]

That was my impression, large old houses.  I have heard the back rooms were closed off in the winter and not used.  The back rooms served as a break from the cold though.  They condensed into activity into the front rooms.  My mom recalls when she was young having snow on their blanket in the morning, the kids slept in the attic. 

We are adding on to our house and will have a sprawl to heat.  We will have up to 4 wood stoves in different parts.  I expect our wood usage will increase.  We now use maybe two cord of cut and split, if that, for the winter, about 1600 sq' .  It is hard to put an exact number on it as we burn wood year round for domestic hot water in a small indoor wood boiler, lots of soft wood slab, gathered when needed.

It will be back to 0ish° in the morning here. 

Tim   

[T Red]

www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Here is an interesting spreadsheet I run across.  You will need to enter your local fuel costs and the efficiency of your hvac unit or one you would like to use. 

[Dean186]

Thanks for spreadsheet link Tim.  It will prove to be most useful.  Dean

[woodmills1]

The way my house was built, ( I didn't build it), no rooms can be shut off.  The outdoor free heat machine early non EPA, is a true free heat machine, a godsend from writing checks.  It works, we are toasty, around 70 in front and 66 to 68 in back.  Did I say I go outside often. :D