iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

At what point do you just jump in and go for it??????

Started by bikedude73, December 15, 2009, 08:58:54 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bikedude73

I am in the business planning process and am wondering at what point do I just jump in and buy a mill and make the business work.  I think there comes a time when any person starting a business has to just take a plunge so to speak.  Not dicounting the business plan but there is a point where one has to take the risk. Any thouhgts???? :P

WH_Conley

Probably about the time you scratch your head, shake it a time or two and say "what the heck, I know I can do better than this".

Sounds like you are already bit with the sawdust bug. :D
Bill

James P.

I would say when you don't see yourself doing anything else. Then buy the mill and if you owe off to work or play you must go

Magicman

If you mean a "full paying for itself and making a profit", it may not be that simple.  A business plan is not a customer base.  For me, the customer base is still being built up based on previous customers and  job quality.  Everyone builds up a reputation.  Yours will determine future business/customers.

My business is portable milling.  Others depend on a stationary mill.  Are you going to mill logs to customer's specs. or maybe try to provide a finished product.  Your own logs, buying logs, or simply milling customer's logs?

I know that I'm not answering your questions.  Only you can do that.

There are many used mills for sale by folks that thought sawmilling was easy money.  I bought my mill from one of them.... :D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brucer

Well, I studied and studied, worked for a WM owner for a summer, and studied some more. I'd probably still be studying except when I called the dealer for an update on price late one January, he told me the prices were going to go up the 1st of February. "Get your deposit in by the end of the month if you want the current prices," he told me. That's when I jumped ;D.

I stayed awake for about three nights worrying about my decision, until Barb finally said, "Go to sleep. You'll figure out how to make it pay."

She was right.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Coalsmoke

Biker Dude, how is your area for supporting small milling operations? I think a person's location is the primary deciding factor, all other things (mill, sawyer, etc) being equal. I know a lot of mill owners here on the west coast barely making it. It seems mills are a dime a dozen. I'm one of the newer guys in town, and am making it, but this is not my first business, which helps, and I have enough schooling to have an advantage. I also built a cheap mill and did a test run for a couple of months to test the actual business feasibility. Still, I know some small mills a few hours from me are in a completely different (and in some ways better) market. Location can make a big difference, especially when for example out here we may pay 120K-200K per acre of land, and 4 hours away its around 10K-15K per acre. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not sure any of us can answer that question for you, its inherent to your specific situation.

PS, my wife and I eat a lot of cheap dinners, but we're happy. Money isn't everything, just as long as there is enough to not be lying awake at night worrying about it. We have the advantage of renting land fairly cheap right now. The next big hurdle will be the  $1,000,000 land purchase we'll need to navigate in roughly 10 years. It's a big enough headache that I am contemplating moving my operation up country by then. We have talked about the possibilities, but still are not sure what the best way to go is. Time will tell. If land is cheap in your area and you have a customer base, I think you will be in a much better position to make a good go of it.

I think the way Brucer went about getting into the business was a smart method. I imagine there were a lot of "pro tips" he picked up while working for that WM owner. Even though I had been milling on a hobby level for almost 8 or more years, I had a lot of things I had to learn quick in terms of commercial milling techniques, acceptable waste, product grades, etc. I'm learning daily, but the first few months were interesting to say the least.
Visit Coalsmoke's website at www.coalsmoke.com

2008 Norwood Lumber Mate 2000 with Honda 20HP engine.
White 2-60 Field Boss > 65HP Tractor with loader.
Husky Chainsaws 353 and 395XPG heavily modified.
Loving wife who endorses all of the above :)

ladylake

 If you have a decent job, keep it for a while, buy the mill and work week ends and on days off. After seeing how that goes then decide if you can quit and saw full time.  Buying a mill isn't any worse than buying a new truck and they hold their value better.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

bandmiller2

I repeat myself but it takes a decent job to support a sawmill.As Ladylaker says get your feet wet weekends and evenings build up a customer base you will know when and if you can transition to full time.If things don't work out you have a mill and a dandy hobby,no pressure or starvation.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

jwoods

bikedude73,

It's a pretty wide open question, would help if you updated your profile, i.e, where are you located, and what kind of business do you forsee in the 1-5 year horizon?

A good business plan should give a definitive answer.

I've taken the plunge a few times and got burned, but I never put myself in a position to lose too much money...how much is too much for you?

The most overlooked question for anyone IMHO, is what can your local market provide? 

If you have local sawyers (or other potential competitors) in your area, a few telephone calls would be most cheap and effective. (without tipping them off or offending them).

Pose as a potential customer and ask these two questions for a starter:  What do they charge?  How soon can they get to your logs (or other product you're planning on making), -or how busy are they?

What they charge will give you an idea of local prices, and if they say they can start immediately means a lack of work (or possible seasonal highs/lows).  If they have  3-month wait, then there is a lack of services which strengthens your business case.

My favorite example is car/truck tires.  Just about everybody in their lifetime will purchase tires, and the service to install them.  Because of this, almost every small town has, or has the potential to support a local tire shop.  How many of those same people need a wood product, and in what kind of condition when they receive it?  Are you planning on selling a service (sawing), or complete product (sawn, kiln-dried, finished moldings)?

my 2 cents:

Joe

Cedarman

It is time to jump in when the only reason not to jump  is fear of failure.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

James P.

Bikedude , I stick by my previous advice, If you are afraid to jump cause of the debt load then lighten the load , go for a smaller mill that won't be do or die. If it seems your staying afloat and you need a better setup then upgrade. I think the depreciation value on a lesser WM mill would be worth looking at.  There will always be a lt40 out there for sale when you need it. Who knows it may be a Lt70 or 300. That would be cool to go from a little worry about your smaller investment to worrying you couldn't keep up with the work without a big investment

Brucer

Quote from: Coalsmoke on December 16, 2009, 03:35:59 AM
I think the way Brucer went about getting into the business was a smart method. I imagine there were a lot of "pro tips" he picked up while working for that WM owner.

I approached Louis when I as in the research stage. I wanted to know if he was turning enough work away during his peak season to supply me with part time work. I showed up at his site wearing work boots and had a pair of gloves in the car. He wasn't busy at the time so we BS'd a bit and he said he always had to turn down work in the summer and fall. I went back with more questions and he was rushing to get an order finished -- no time to talk. I asked if there was anything I could do to help, and next thing you know I was dragging slabs off the mill and helping load timbers into his truck. Went back a third time (to deal with those unanswered questions) and said I hoped I hadn't held him up with his rush order. He said I was a big help, and then offered me a job for the summer. His words were, "I can't pay you much, but I can teach you a lot." He was right on both accounts.

I learned a heck of a lot about "reading" a log, how to get the most out of it, and how to deal with unusual sawing problems. I saw numerous ways to speed up production, and found he didn't want to work that way. I also learned how not to do business.

Most important of all, I learned that I really liked sawing ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Coalsmoke

Quote from: Brucer on December 17, 2009, 12:06:57 AM
I also learned how not to do business.

Care to expand on some of the pitfalls of the milling business? I sense a story in there somewhere.
Visit Coalsmoke's website at www.coalsmoke.com

2008 Norwood Lumber Mate 2000 with Honda 20HP engine.
White 2-60 Field Boss > 65HP Tractor with loader.
Husky Chainsaws 353 and 395XPG heavily modified.
Loving wife who endorses all of the above :)

zopi

Quote from: Coalsmoke on December 17, 2009, 02:10:00 AM
Quote from: Brucer on December 17, 2009, 12:06:57 AM
I also learned how not to do business.

Care to expand on some of the pitfalls of the milling business? I sense a story in there somewhere.

Ditto...
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

Jasperfield

Quiet yourself and make your decisions. And, do so during the time of day when you are most reluctant to be financially brave.

You've been here before and you've made similar decisions.

Don't confuse risk with gambling. There is no gain without some degree of risk. You know this.

This may be a decision which you don't have to make. Know yourself and your situation(s).

Doing nothing is a decision unto itself. Remember the parable of the Talents which Jesus told to his deciples (Matthew 25:14-30).






cheyenne

If you have to ask someones advise your not ready to make the leap. Don't let anyone fool you, This is not a game for the faint of heart or some one with a limited amount of money. All the pretty stories cost a ton of money.............Cheyenne
Home of the white buffalo

Chuck White

One of the biggest things that will follow you if/when you get a sawmill is your reputation.

Word of mouth reputation is very fast, good or bad.

Put some feelers out, to see if very many people in your local area might be interested in having some sawing done!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Magicman

Quote from: Chuck White on December 18, 2009, 05:23:28 AM
One of the biggest things that will follow you if/when you get a sawmill is your reputation.

When talking to a potential new customer, the first thing that you have to sell is yourself.....then back it up with a good product.  Everything else is easy..... :)

I finished a job today where the customer lives/works over 200 miles from the job/saw site.  When he drove up today and saw his lumber, neatly stacked, and sawed as per his wishes, he was very satisfied.  I'll saw for him again.....soon.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

backwoods sawyer

The mill will sell its self, however you have to be able to sell your services.
I just finished a one log job that took over half the day. I could have done the job start to finish in less then an hour, but I took the time to talk with the customer about how to get what he wanted out of his log, then I showed him how I made the mill cut his log, then I neatly stickered his boards and explained the drying process to him all at a board footage rate. Now this is not a guy that will be bringing me a truck load or two of logs next week, this is for an old boy that will tinker in his shop and show everyone that he knows what he makes from the wood. Besides the smile on his face thru out the day was well worth it to me.
You are ready to take the plunge when you can afford to not make much money.

A local mill that took the plunge 3 years ago, is in a very unstable position right now. I have been working with him to slow the slow the out flow of cash and increase his income, because he is an asset to my milling operation. Talk with the other mills in your area and see if they feel that there is a need for a milling operation like what you are planning. 
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Magicman

Customer bases build up gradually.  I don't advertise because I really don't want to increase my work load.  I parked my mill yesterday and talleyed up this years work last night.  Overall, there has been a gradual increase each year and 2009, is my second best year behind 2005.  2005, spiked because I sawed two whole houses that year.  I'm a happy  :D sawyer.....  8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Coalsmoke

Visit Coalsmoke's website at www.coalsmoke.com

2008 Norwood Lumber Mate 2000 with Honda 20HP engine.
White 2-60 Field Boss > 65HP Tractor with loader.
Husky Chainsaws 353 and 395XPG heavily modified.
Loving wife who endorses all of the above :)

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

James P.

of course not , he jumped in, now he is to busy for the ff, it happens. Wish it would happen to me :D

ARKANSAWYER


  Since I did not intend to get into the business but just fell into it I have know ideal of when to "jump in".  But I DanG know what you will find when you feet hit the ground.  Growth comes in large leaps instead of small steps.  You must know how to make a good boards.  You must know what a good board is.  You have to be a salesman first and a sawyer second.  If I get my way there will be an ARKANSAWYER SAWMILL INC. in just about every town just like Wal-Mart.
ARKANSAWYER

Magicman

With any "start up" business, I would rather have a job, and let the new business be a side-line.  That way, you are not in a panic mode when business doesn't grow as expected.  It's hard to "push" a rope, but you can "pull" that sucker and make the right decisions if you are not pressured.  Let the new business "pay itself off" first, and then it only has to pay you.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brucer

Quote from: Coalsmoke on December 17, 2009, 02:10:00 AM
Quote from: Brucer on December 17, 2009, 12:06:57 AM
I also learned how not to do business.

Care to expand on some of the pitfalls of the milling business? I sense a story in there somewhere.

My one-time boss and I have fundamentally different ideas on how to do business. I have always tried to see things from the customer's point of view. He sees things from his own point of view. I watched how he dealt with customers and could not fathom how he'd stayed in business for 9 years.

I've posted some of this elsewhere, but here's how not to do business.


  • Surprise your customer by asking for a lot more money than you quoted. Wait until you've offloaded the product at his site.
  • When your customer asks for an impossibly early delivery date, tell her you can do it. Once you've got the job, don't bother starting it until she's bugged you at least three times about being late.
  • When you're buying (logs for example), round your payment down. When you're selling, round it up.
  • If you make a mistake that costs you money, expect the customer to pay for it.
  • Don't pay your bills unless the creditor keeps bugging you. You can save thousands this way because lots of people will give up.

That's exactly what I don't do. I'm now sawing full time and my former boss saws part-time.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Coalsmoke

Wow, and he still has a customer base? I know a couple of my competitors when I was in the metal fab business who ran their shops like that. As soon as the recession hit, they went belly up. I am always amazed that people can treat their business relationships like that and call themselves businessmen.
Visit Coalsmoke's website at www.coalsmoke.com

2008 Norwood Lumber Mate 2000 with Honda 20HP engine.
White 2-60 Field Boss > 65HP Tractor with loader.
Husky Chainsaws 353 and 395XPG heavily modified.
Loving wife who endorses all of the above :)

customsawyer

This question is like asking when is a good time to get married, it will be different for most.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

ljmathias

Probably more like "when should we have a baby," which involves more expense and commitment than getting married (well, a different kind anyway- you can't "reason" with a colicky baby at 2 am and you can't "divorce" a child).  The answer, of course, is that you can never justify a baby on economic terms- they just don't have much return-on-investment for a long time, at least in real dollars.  But then again, the emotional return is priceless, and a baby changes your life totally, making you into a new, and hopefully better, person.  I would guess a sawmill can do that, too; probably does most of the time; did for me.  So it should not be ONLY the economics that drive your decision.

I teach (or try to teach) my students in the non-science major's science class I teach how to reason some; tough to do with art and business majors but it's good to have a challenging job: in any major decision, list all the pros and cons, being as objective and critical as you can be, and at the very bottom add the "emotional" components.  That is, how bad do you "want" it?  It may turn out that, like a baby, the pros and cons add up to less than what you want is worth- you have babies because you want, even need, to, not because it's a rational decision.  Problem with this approach is, how to value the "want?"  How many points do you give it to add in or subtract out?  Sometimes you subconsciously "want" something because you really "need" it- you know you want/need to change your life/job/situation and you "choose" a path that will make you do that even though consciously you know it will cause lots of pain and require enormous hard work.

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble; good luck on what you chose.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

southpaw

When you decide, I thought about it for almost 3yrs. when I had a good paying job, been out of work for the better part of the last year, so now this is when it was right for me  ???, have only made/cut for two custumers, haven't made much $, but having the best time  8). Its better than work  :D ;D.

Oregon_Sawyer

I had wanted a sawmill every since I saw a "portable" when I was 13 or 14 years old.  When I was 18 I worked in a mill one winter.  One year the place we bought had some trees fall down in a winter storm and I had the excuse to buy a used WM.

No body to teach me I just jumped in.  That first lumber I would probably hide from somebody today.

I had a full time job hauling groceries.  I started cutting stuff for myself and pretty soon people were asking me to cut for them.  New side-line business.  When we decided to build a log home I begin the process of cutting all the lumber for it.  It took 5 years to do that.  But,  the business paid for itself and all the lumber for our home.  I did a lot of the work in trade.

Before I finished the house I upgraded to a LT70.  Business was good and I thought my adult (age anyway) son might take over.  He had the skills to run the mill but not to operate the business.

Getting older and having to many irons in the fire I decided to sale the business.  I sold it to one of my customers at a below market price to keep it in the area.  He is younger and is doing very well cutting as his full time job.

One time after I was asked how long it took to learn to cut good lumber.  My answer was after 100,000 bd ft I am just getting the hang of it.  We cut close to a million feet before I sold the mill.  Anytime I miss it I can just go down the country road and help Matt out.

I enjoyed the mill.  Maybe I will do it again when I retire.  (All the bells and whistles)
Sawing with a WM since 98. LT 70 42hp Kubota walk behind. 518 Skidder. Ramey Log Loader. Serious part-timer. Western Red Cedar and Doug Fir.  Teamster Truck Driver 4 days a week.

zopi

I am at the point of decision now...when/if we sell this extra house I am trying to upgrade from lt-15 to lt-40 hyd...probably a used one..too many smoking deals not to..but I intend to have a job and cut on the side in addition to a couple other sidelines..one of them will take off..I really want to make the sawing thing work though...there is alot of timber in our area, and most of it leaves on trucks...I want to show these folks how sustainable timber can stay in the community and boost our economy from both ends...could care less about the big box thingies...

Anyway..I won't jump off in business until I have work stacked out the door..I don't really want to sell lumber, except incidentally...hope to make the mobile custom work pay for the most part...

I am retiring from the military in a couple years...19 months almost to the day,
and I am scared to death...never been anything but military and don't really know much about the civilian world...had my head up my butt driving ships for years...but whether cutting grass, working shipyard, painting motorcycles or sawing lumber I'm gonna face it like everything else...just have to want to work.

It's risky, being a small business..but you'll never have the satisfaction or the chance to make real money unless you work for yourself doing something you love....
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

Coalsmoke

Quote from: zopi on December 20, 2009, 07:40:26 PM

It's risky, being a small business..but you'll never have the satisfaction or the chance to make real money unless you work for yourself doing something you love....

Actually, statistically speaking, the majority of self employed people only earn 60-70% of the hourly wage equivalent that their counterparts working as employees for a company will earn. The payoffs are in other areas (non fiscal), providing a person wants it bad enough.
Visit Coalsmoke's website at www.coalsmoke.com

2008 Norwood Lumber Mate 2000 with Honda 20HP engine.
White 2-60 Field Boss > 65HP Tractor with loader.
Husky Chainsaws 353 and 395XPG heavily modified.
Loving wife who endorses all of the above :)

tyb525

I bought a sawmill in January, on a whim compared to most people (although I did do a little research), and I love it. I do it part-time. My "day job" is school, which I get no income from. I am able to support my hobby from the few customers that I have. I could have more customers, but I don't have the time for much work yet.

I am only 17, I am making it work with an LT10, and I love every aspect of milling. Besides sawing for others, I am sawing for myself. I use some of the lumber for myself, and sell some.

Bikedude, my advice is to go for it! Maybe start with a smaller like an LT40HD mill, but I know if you do a good job and charge what you need, you can make it, and upgrade to a bigger/better/faster mill after some time.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

bikedude73

No you all did not scare me away.  I went to Indy wm for another open house.  Ran a lt10 and lt 15 and have decided the lt 15 is for me.......  Any more info would be awesome...... :P

customsawyer

The only thing to fear is fear itself. I have 2  LT70 mills and have a have trouble sometimes keeping them busy. Then there are times like now that I can't get it all done. You will get out of it what you put in it. IMHO.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Magicman

Welcome back.  You've got to admit, you were gone for a long time.

It's has to be good to be able to get touchy/feely with different mills so that you can make the correct decision.  There are several "15" owners here that should be able to answer any questions that you may have..... :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Cedarman

When running a sawmill business you are balancing 3 things. Raw material supply, production capability, orders.  It is a rare day they are in balance. Look at Jake.  Not too long ago, worrying about work. Now stress because of a deadline. Same for my cedar business. That's why we make the BIG bucks. Right!! :D :D  Right, Jake? :D :D
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

backwoods sawyer

Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Thank You Sponsors!